On the other side, I never liked the idea of Stormtroopers being special-elite-not-normal-army guys. I mean these are the troops we see standing around operating a checkpoint on Mos Eisley, a backward city on a backward colony. Really, these are the guys we see in every battle and guarding every station is the movies. Until I got deep into the EU, I always assumed laminate armor was just what infantry troops wore (as oppose to the uniforms of vehicle operators)

Also, on the clone subject, don't forget that the Kamino records show that the army was order by a Jedi Master (sypho dias). It would not be hard to convince the Senate and People that the Jedi had originaly intended to use it to take over the Republic - or, given that the separatist leader was also a (dark) Jedi, that the entire war was manufactured by that order so they could secure their place as autocratic leaders of the republic. In essence, he created evidence that the Jedi were intending to do what he did, and he saved everyone from it.

Being Empress might be hell on the skin. If the "Pretty" part matters to you, be prepared to pulp Gungans into moisturizer.

gungan moisturizer. that sounds right on every level

Remember:

On the other side, I never liked the idea of Stormtroopers being special-elite-not-normal-army guys. I mean these are the troops we see standing around operating a checkpoint on Mos Eisley, a backward city on a backward colony. Really, these are the guys we see in every battle and guarding every station is the movies. Until I got deep into the EU, I always assumed laminate armor was just what infantry troops wore (as oppose to the uniforms of vehicle operators)

These are the troops we see who are probably detached from the Star Destroyer in orbit to find the missing droids. Nothing is said one way or the other in the movies as to whether they are always there in Mos Eisley.

Back in the seventies, there was a series of magazines: the Star Wars Poster Magazine - that detailed, well pretty much everything you take for granted on the internet, but back in 1978. Issue 4 very clearly stated the life cycle of a stormtrooper as clones, grown in vats, flash trained, retirement was rare and so on. And for the entirety of the 70's and 80's, it was a given that thats what Stormtroopers were - until Kevin J Anderson came along and messed everything up with his stormtrooper recruitment academy.

I'm pretty sure I read this one. I might even still have it packed away downstairs. Large over-sized magazine. I also recall something about there being a retirement planet for those rare Stormtroopers that made it to that far. Or is my memory mixing that article up with something that later came about during WEG?

On the other side, I never liked the idea of Stormtroopers being special-elite-not-normal-army guys. I mean these are the troops we see standing around operating a checkpoint on Mos Eisley, a backward city on a backward colony. Really, these are the guys we see in every battle and guarding every station is the movies.

Perhaps troops weren't on permanent duty at that checkpoint. They were probably dispatched as part of the special mission to retrieve the droids for Vader. They were manning random checkpoints looking for those droids. As for the other instances, the movies were about the most critical and essential stations and battles. You could argue we never saw any battles regarding obscure locations, stations, etc.

I once was a fierce proponent of Stormtroopers as the elite troops PLUS we have the Imperial Army. However, I've recently come full circle. My current stance is they are elite, but the only Infantry of the Empire. Not as elite as the Clone Troopers, but much better trained and equipped then local planetary forces. This document is about Imperial uniforms, but it also includes my personal breakdown of Imperial military organization based upon the recent tossing of the EU.

They could be, except everyone on the Star Destroyer is spit-polished white, and the guys at Mos Esley are sand-blasted to hell. They look like they've been out in the desert for a lot longer than the day or so Vader's been in orbit, and don't have the time, energy or resources to keep their armor up to that nice parade-ground finish. Also, the stormtroopers searching the pod site, which we know are from the Star Destroyer, are using standard shiny armor, not blasted sandtrooper armor.

Also, thanks for that document Sturn, I like that one.

They could be, except everyone on the Star Destroyer is spit-polished white, and the guys at Mos Esley are sand-blasted to hell. They look like they've been out in the desert for a lot longer than the day or so Vader's been in orbit, and don't have the time, energy or resources to keep their armor up to that nice parade-ground finish. Also, the stormtroopers searching the pod site, which we know are from the Star Destroyer, are using standard shiny armor, not blasted sandtrooper armor.

Also, thanks for that document Sturn, I like that one.

Well, from my experience in the desert you are already dirty ten minutes before you get off the plane

But in all seriousness in a desert like we see on Tatooine white armor will look like that within a few hours, if not a few minutes.

I'm pretty sure I read this one. I might even still have it packed away downstairs. Large over-sized magazine. I also recall something about there being a retirement planet for those rare Stormtroopers that made it to that far. Or is my memory mixing that article up with something that later came about during WEG?

No, that's it. Here, I managed to finally find a copy online (Sorry, Haley - I couldn't find a text version)

BTW: I think they dropped "Do no evil" a couple years ago...

Just the "no" part.

They could be, except everyone on the Star Destroyer is spit-polished white, and the guys at Mos Esley are sand-blasted to hell. They look like they've been out in the desert for a lot longer than the day or so Vader's been in orbit, and don't have the time, energy or resources to keep their armor up to that nice parade-ground finish. Also, the stormtroopers searching the pod site, which we know are from the Star Destroyer, are using standard shiny armor, not blasted sandtrooper armor.

Also, thanks for that document Sturn, I like that one.

Who says they've only been looking for a day? It was at least a few days from where the droids crashed to where they were picked up by the Jawas, let alone sold to Uncle Owen... then the events with Obi-wan... etc...

Considering the size of the Empire's ships, the number of them, and the ability to secretly hide the fact that they spent money on TWO Death Stars, I don't think money is an issue. I don't know why Palpatine wouldn't continue to produce clones because everything suggests they were simply better at being elite troopers. Even if he scaling back and just using them for Stormtroopers seems almost too logical for him not to do it.

When I'm Darth Haley, Emperor of the Galaxy, you can bet I'll keep the clone program running!

But who will you use as your template for the clones?

Anyone but Jar-Jar, please!

Well.. I was thinking more Jango clones but a legion of Jar Jars could always come in handy!

They could be, except everyone on the Star Destroyer is spit-polished white, and the guys at Mos Esley are sand-blasted to hell. They look like they've been out in the desert for a lot longer than the day or so Vader's been in orbit, and don't have the time, energy or resources to keep their armor up to that nice parade-ground finish. Also, the stormtroopers searching the pod site, which we know are from the Star Destroyer, are using standard shiny armor, not blasted sandtrooper armor.

Also, thanks for that document Sturn, I like that one.

Who says they've only been looking for a day? It was at least a few days from where the droids crashed to where they were picked up by the Jawas, let alone sold to Uncle Owen... then the events with Obi-wan... etc...

I assumed if they're from the ISD they would rotate through, rather than leave the same guys standing there for days on end. They've got, what, 2000+ on the ISD to work with.

They could be, except everyone on the Star Destroyer is spit-polished white, and the guys at Mos Esley are sand-blasted to hell. They look like they've been out in the desert for a lot longer than the day or so Vader's been in orbit, and don't have the time, energy or resources to keep their armor up to that nice parade-ground finish. Also, the stormtroopers searching the pod site, which we know are from the Star Destroyer, are using standard shiny armor, not blasted sandtrooper armor.

Also, thanks for that document Sturn, I like that one.

Who says they've only been looking for a day? It was at least a few days from where the droids crashed to where they were picked up by the Jawas, let alone sold to Uncle Owen... then the events with Obi-wan... etc...

I assumed if they're from the ISD they would rotate through, rather than leave the same guys standing there for days on end. They've got, what, 2000+ on the ISD to work with.

Yeah, but didn't Vader split straight away? Those troopers were on their own.

Yeah, it's too darn bad that the Clone Army has nothing to do with Mandalorians, and that Jango was not a Mandalorian, and by default, neither was Boba. Jango was just some bounty hunter who somehow got ahold of some Mandalorian armor.

Jango Fett was indeed a Mandalorian. 'Tis canon.

They could be, except everyone on the Star Destroyer is spit-polished white, and the guys at Mos Esley are sand-blasted to hell. They look like they've been out in the desert for a lot longer than the day or so Vader's been in orbit, and don't have the time, energy or resources to keep their armor up to that nice parade-ground finish. Also, the stormtroopers searching the pod site, which we know are from the Star Destroyer, are using standard shiny armor, not blasted sandtrooper armor.

Also, thanks for that document Sturn, I like that one.

Who says they've only been looking for a day? It was at least a few days from where the droids crashed to where they were picked up by the Jawas, let alone sold to Uncle Owen... then the events with Obi-wan... etc...

I assumed if they're from the ISD they would rotate through, rather than leave the same guys standing there for days on end. They've got, what, 2000+ on the ISD to work with.

Yeah, but didn't Vader split straight away? Those troopers were on their own.

Even if they're not Vader's there are still three (IIRC) Star Destroyers... er Imperial Cruisers in orbit to try and cut off the Falcon's departure.

They could be, except everyone on the Star Destroyer is spit-polished white, and the guys at Mos Esley are sand-blasted to hell. They look like they've been out in the desert for a lot longer than the day or so Vader's been in orbit, and don't have the time, energy or resources to keep their armor up to that nice parade-ground finish. Also, the stormtroopers searching the pod site, which we know are from the Star Destroyer, are using standard shiny armor, not blasted sandtrooper armor.

Also, thanks for that document Sturn, I like that one.

Who says they've only been looking for a day? It was at least a few days from where the droids crashed to where they were picked up by the Jawas, let alone sold to Uncle Owen... then the events with Obi-wan... etc...

I assumed if they're from the ISD they would rotate through, rather than leave the same guys standing there for days on end. They've got, what, 2000+ on the ISD to work with.

They might just be rotating on the planet itself, or they're pulling long shifts, get back long enough to just crash out, then back out into the heat and sand again... Amazing how corrosive sand in the wind is

A day in the desert is enough to make anything look old and dirty (6 months life experience).

I'm pretty sure I read this one. I might even still have it packed away downstairs. Large over-sized magazine. I also recall something about there being a retirement planet for those rare Stormtroopers that made it to that far. Or is my memory mixing that article up with something that later came about during WEG?

No, that's it. Here, I managed to finally find a copy online (Sorry, Haley - I couldn't find a text version)

That's it! I hope I still have that packed away someplace and it didn't get tossed out. Thanks for the memories. I remember reading those articles over and over around 1978? And reading that small text at the bottom of the picture I now realize why I've always been so fixated on wanting the orange pauldrons to be for officers.

I recall some very early information about the first Ben vs. Vader fight in the same magazine? It spoke of Vader falling into lava during the fight which lead to his breathing problems and special suit. With Episode III decades later, that's no longer exciting stuff. But at the time that little snippet was something few had heard about. "Hey did you know why Darth breathes that way!?...I just read about it in this magazine!"

EDIT: Looking at the content of several of those poster magazines, lots of it sounds familiar although I recall only ever owning one of them. I DO recall standing at a magazine rack in a grocery store while my mom shopped reading anything I could see about Star Wars. Perhaps I read lots of those articles but only was able to buy one?

EDIT: And you just made me buy a collection of magazines on ebay. When I find Issue #1 that I'm sure I have someplace, I will have #1 through #5.

I'm pretty sure I read this one. I might even still have it packed away downstairs. Large over-sized magazine. I also recall something about there being a retirement planet for those rare Stormtroopers that made it to that far. Or is my memory mixing that article up with something that later came about during WEG?

No, that's it. Here, I managed to finally find a copy online (Sorry, Haley - I couldn't find a text version)

Why am I always needing someone to read stuff to me when no one's around!

No, it would be more like the IRS revealing that they had an army.

Nobody has ever considered the IRS "Good Guys".

Ever.

Building an Empire and controlling one are very different missions for a military. The Clones were bred and trained to win battles but you need other skills along with life experience to effectively occupy and maintain control of populations. You also need ambition and mistrust to police you own forces as well as rooting out dissidents. Clones are not well suited to these tasks because of their very nature as a cohesive and fearless fighting force.

Further an Empire needs to recruit from within and needs a vehicle to build loyalty, give me the child and I'll give you the man and all that. Military training and indoctrination are perfect for this. Plus it's also a tool to discourage rebellion because the troops that are enforcing the Emperor's rule could also be your family.

Basically the Clones had a specific purpose that no longer applied and regardless of how effective a fighting force they were they were no longer useful.

There are plusses and minuses to having your army be a clone army. The chief advantage is consistent quality and loyalty. Soldiers recruited from worlds will have ties to family, friends, cultures, etc. That's why when you're a tyrant, you have the soldiers you recruited from village X oppressing the people of village Y and the people of village X oppressing by the soldiers from village Y. So if the Emperor needs to put down a revolt on Corellia, you can bet the troops used will not be Corellian (with the odd very trusted exception for local info).

But there's a flip side to that which make it very supportable that the Emperor would not be using clones. A clone army will forever be an outside and occupying force to the Imperial citizens. The army will never be part of the people. And that breeds resistance. That same recruitment from the people that can cause problems also lets you build up the military as heroes and defenders (such as they are portrayed in the USA today), lets people aspire to be part of the military themself (you're typically a lot less threatened by a group that will accept you or your friends as members of itself) and you get a force that has greater ability to interact in non-violent ways with the population which is a much greater priority during peacetime than during war.

It also provides the emperor with a means to deplete the surplus population as desired.

Also, on the clone subject, don't forget that the Kamino records show that the army was order by a Jedi Master (sypho dias). It would not be hard to convince the Senate and People that the Jedi had originaly intended to use it to take over the Republic - or, given that the separatist leader was also a (dark) Jedi, that the entire war was manufactured by that order so they could secure their place as autocratic leaders of the republic. In essence, he created evidence that the Jedi were intending to do what he did, and he saved everyone from it.

You want to keep your narrative simple for the masses. Doubt and uncertainty leads to caution. Caution leads to resistance to war. Resistance to war leads to the Light Side, and all that. But it does make an excellent fall back if parts of your conspiracy were to be discovered. Suppose the senate found out that Grevious had been communicating with someone high level on the Republic side. Much easier to direct that at the Jedi having planted this background in advance. I don't think this was an active part of Palpatine's plan, but it made an excellent insurance plan in the event of partial discovery.

I once was a fierce proponent of Stormtroopers as the elite troops PLUS we have the Imperial Army. However, I've recently come full circle. My current stance is they are elite, but the only Infantry of the Empire. Not as elite as the Clone Troopers, but much better trained and equipped then local planetary forces. This document is about Imperial uniforms, but it also includes my personal breakdown of Imperial military organization based upon the recent tossing of the EU.

I wrote about this previously. If I had some way to search my past posts on this forum, I would link to my post. But the gist of it is that maybe the Imperial ONLY has elite troops. Think about the progression in our own world. It used to be who had the most troops had the best army (simplification, but more so than today). Then you got the Romans with their shieldwalls and coordinated fighting and that became less true. Then it was who had the most muskets, then guns... The German army was able to drive back units of Russian soldiers many times their own numbers because they had better weapons. Today, the West tends more and more toward smaller numbers of very highly trained troops. And the reason of course is that they have air-power, cruise missiles, tanks... Troops are no longer used for the heavy hitting, they're used for the special operations and the street to street.

See the parallel with the Empire. There is no-one with a navy to challenge them. They therefore have superior orbital power, superior air-power, superior mechanized forces. They can level a city without sending down a single foot-soldier. In that scenario, your remaining operations are never simple power projection, but entirely special operations, lighting raids, that sort of thing. So maybe the empire doesn't HAVE a non-elite army. It bombs and ti-fights the crap out of its enemy and then sends in the stormtroopers to seize the command bunker in a lightning raid and so on.

Those troopers in white can be both the elite and the only army at the same time. Regular soldiers have been replaced with the ability to fire lasers from orbit.

I post a lot, don't I.

I'm pretty sure I read this one. I might even still have it packed away downstairs. Large over-sized magazine. I also recall something about there being a retirement planet for those rare Stormtroopers that made it to that far. Or is my memory mixing that article up with something that later came about during WEG?

No, that's it. Here, I managed to finally find a copy online (Sorry, Haley - I couldn't find a text version)

Why am I always needing someone to read stuff to me when no one's around!

Found a text version, linked here:

http://insd.swcombine.com/insd/troops/clone.htm

Google to the rescue!