That reminds me:

Can Commissars execute Ecclisiarchy priests?

Here's a whole other can of worms for you. Like Enginseers, priest are also personel from another organisation attached to a regiment (or squad) Shooting them in the head might also prove to be unwise.

What do you guys think?

Absolutely can. Ministorum Priests are attached as field chaplains, and are part of that technically unnecessary branch of the Adeptus Terra.

Can Commissars execute Ecclisiarchy priests?

I'd treat that exactly like with Enginseers. They get the same additional degrees of latitude, but if they turn out to sabotage the mission or incite the troops to insubordination against properly verified orders, they'd get the same bolt round 'twixt their eyes.

The only difference might be that Commissars may be a little more biased towards Ministorum clergy because they were brought up in an institution run by the church and instilled with the same virtues. They share a faith, so a Commissar would regard the cleric as tending to their own spiritual needs as well and - unlike with a Mechanicus operative - listen to and pray with them.

But that would still be just a strictly personal perspective and nothing that has to do with regulations. Just like Confessors may end up influencing Guard and Navy officers into launching military operations unsanctioned by Segmentum Command, even though they're not supposed to.

Absolutely can. Ministorum Priests are attached as field chaplains, and are part of that technically unnecessary branch of the Adeptus Terra.

The Ecclesiarchy is its own branch , exactly like the Mechanicus.

Absolutely can. Ministorum Priests are attached as field chaplains, and are part of that technically unnecessary branch of the Adeptus Terra.

The Ecclesiarchy is its own branch , exactly like the Mechanicus.

Actually, the Adeptus Mechanicus is formally considered part of the Adeptus Terra . They are just not governed by it or fall under it's direct command. Whereas, you are correct, the Ecclesiarchy is an outsider to the agency. My point I was attempting to make wasn't based on a technical aspect of that though - the Ecclesiarchy is quite powerful, but it doesn't offer the Imperium the same sort of lucrative, tangible importance the Adeptus Mechanicus does - or the Navis Nobilite, or the Astra Telepathica. It's importance is wholly cultural and subject to reforms.

General giest I'm getting at: Capping a dime-a-dozen Ministorum Priest isn't going to have the same backlash as killing a cogboy.

Edit:

**** it your right though. Commissars would have preferential and biased reserves for the priests! They get raised by them practically via the Drill-Abbots in the Scholas!

Also the guardsmen might frown upon such an act aswell.

Priest: "In the name of St. Alpharia of Serpentis, advance!"

Commisar. "Our orders are to hold this position at all costs!"

Priest: "FOR THE EMPEROR! ATTACK!"

Commisar: *headshots the priest*

Guardsman: "He- he shot father Graves! Get him!"

Commisar: "Wait no what? aaargh!"

Guardsman :" Blood for the Emperor! Skulls for the golden throne!"

That'd require the priest to be more liked than the commissar. Which probably happens more often than not, but still isn't always applicable.

I never like the propagation of the idea that commissars will immediately get ganked by every infrantryman the moment he does something they don't like. Commissars strike fear in the hearts of men for a reason, people don't just decide to shoot commissars unless it's part of their personality based on planet of origin.

Actually, the Adeptus Mechanicus is formally considered part of the Adeptus Terra .

Where is that coming from?

My point I was attempting to make wasn't based on a technical aspect of that though - the Ecclesiarchy is quite powerful, but it doesn't offer the Imperium the same sort of lucrative, tangible importance the Adeptus Mechanicus does - or the Navis Nobilite, or the Astra Telepathica. It's importance is wholly cultural and subject to reforms.

I'd say it does - by M41 (and quite a bit earlier), the Imperium is held together largely by its religion. You could say that it's "only cultural", but when this is what keeps all those planets in line and working together, that is an effect even more important than Mechanicus technology or the Navis Nobilite, for without the people to use them, all those fancy weapons and the mighty ships would have zero use.

The importance of religion (about 50% perceived, but also 50% real, because the people are superstitious yokels and just a lot easier to manipulate this way) for the continued existence of the Imperium is the single one reason the Ecclesiarchy was admitted as a new Adeptus in the first place, and its leader as a permanent member of the Senatorum Imperialis.

Adeptus Mechanicus and the Adeptus Ministorum both fall on the same tier as the Adeptus Administratum within the hierarchy. There's a full, official 6th edition diagram in the Codex: Tempestus Militarum.

As for executing Ministorum Priests, my Sergeant himself put down a Priest using his Heavy Bolter, with oversight from a supporting Commissar.

I put the fear of the God-Emperor into my men though. Arrived on Skyrnne to a base in shambles, rife with smugglers, gambling and self-sabotage. We ended up chaining 40+ PDF troopers and Ministorum Priests out in the courtyard for two weeks for assorted crimes against the Imperium, with the promise that they'd get away with Bomb Collars if they proved useful / co-operative.

As far as the Commissariat is concerned, their job is to maintain discipline and ensure the guard remain functional and fighting, and they will do whatever they perceive to be necessary to achieve their objective.

I have a sneaky feeling that, much like the TP, the Priests will get that leeway, even if it doesn't make the most sense. Apostate Cardinals, and their lower-ranking equivalents, often control large amounts of followers, and that often includes some chunks of the various world PDFs, and possibly Guard forces, with Commissars who aren't figuring out that those men of the cloth are dipping it in poison, if they haven't already been conveniently eliminated. Be they rogue Ecclesiarchy or AdMech, I think that, beyond the realm of grunt troops and psykers with a nosebleed, the Commissariat might not have the best ability to notice the bad stuff. One might argue that a Bishop is a high post, and your "average" Commissar would be hard-pressed to reach him, and shoot him, but so long as the troops are following the fallen cleric, the Commissar is ALLOWING it, if not dead, already. Oh well, maybe it's just beyond their pay grade...

Bad double-post. Sorry folks. I really must just like to read my own posts.

That'd require the priest to be more liked than the commissar. Which probably happens more often than not, but still isn't always applicable.

I never like the propagation of the idea that commissars will immediately get ganked by every infrantryman the moment he does something they don't like. Commissars strike fear in the hearts of men for a reason, people don't just decide to shoot commissars unless it's part of their personality based on planet of origin.

You have a point, I also don't think most commisars would go around shooting people at the drop of a hat.

On the other hand, i believe one vesrion of the TT game had the summary execution rule go like this:

First failed test, Sergeant gets removed as a casualty and the squad automatically passess the test.

Second failed test: You loose the commissar model as the squad has had enough of it.*

So even in the TT comissars often ended up dead from their squad buddies (That 'll show em)

* I might be wrong about it (I think it was 3d edition) iy was a long while agao.

Be they rogue Ecclesiarchy or AdMech, I think that, beyond the realm of grunt troops and psykers with a nosebleed, the Commissariat might not have the best ability to notice the bad stuff.

Yeah, I think the most trouble would actually be in noticing that something is wrong in the first place.

But as far as I understood the thread, the discussion was about what they'd do if they would notice something .. wasn't it?

Yep, I was just adding in that, regardless of whether they can or can't cap outsiders, one reason you might see them not is a lack of them seeing anything worth capping over. Commissars shoot Guardsmen, but that's usually for them running away, or being grossly insubordinate, in a way that jeopardizes the mission, maybe heresy. The AdMech or Ecclesiarchy might behave in a way, however, that is alien to the Commissar, hiding the fact that it might ALSO be heresy from them. They can, IMO, act if something weird happens, but in the 40kverse, some weird stuff is too weird for the Commissar to notice AS weird, so he just goes along with it.

There might also be a conflict of orders.

Like in my example: the squad has been tasked to hold a vital objective at all costs. But the priest deems it more important to take the fight to the enemies and not suffer the unclean to live.*

So now the commissar who was expecting to shoot maybe one guardsman to keep them from running away now faces the problem of them running in the other direction, following that **** priest.

* Altough he was actualy an Alpha Legion inflitrator, corrupting the guardsmen and trying to lure them off the objective.

What is up with you and the Alpha Legion? Not everything is an Alpha Legion conspiracy.

It's in my headcanon.

Okay that's not true. But they are my favorite Legion.

And I liked the concept of a corrupted priest getting an entire guardsman squad effed up. Imagine sending a bunch of corrupted priests along with a loyal regiment and teaching them some twisted preversion of the imperial creed!

Lieutenant: "Why is your commisar not with you?"

Guardsman: "He was a sacrifice the island demanded."

Lieutenant: "What?!"

Guardsman" I mean, He sacrificed his life for the Emperor."

Oh yeah, one more thing:

Hydra dominatus !

What is up with you and the Alpha Legion? Not everything is an Alpha Legion conspiracy.

Yes. It is.

The greatest trick they ever played on the Imperium...

... Hydra Dominatus

There's a full, official 6th edition diagram in the Codex: Tempestus Militarum.

*nods* Similar to the one in the rulebook I linked, except for the fancy background.

I think this has been consistent ever since 2nd Edition, at least in GW's own books.

What is up with you and the Alpha Legion? Not everything is an Alpha Legion conspiracy.

I think it's just part of his theme.

There might also be a conflict of orders.

Like in my example: the squad has been tasked to hold a vital objective at all costs. But the priest deems it more important to take the fight to the enemies and not suffer the unclean to live.*

So now the commissar who was expecting to shoot maybe one guardsman to keep them from running away now faces the problem of them running in the other direction, following that **** priest.

* Altough he was actualy an Alpha Legion inflitrator, corrupting the guardsmen and trying to lure them off the objective.

The Correct answer is for the Commissar to shoot the first Guardsman who attempts to follow the priest who's leading them off against their orders, so the rest of the troops stay on mission.

Unless the 'priest' is a guardsman who took Holy Orders after entering the Guard, and thus is a Guardsman first, priest second. Then you shoot both him and the first Guardsman to follow him.

It's a lot more situational.

That's ... a rather clever solution, too.

Or just kneecap the priest, then tell the troops that Father Graves isn't feeling well, and needs to sit out this operation in the medical tent. You don't always have to shoot to kill, even if your disciplinary measure of choice is a bolter.

And if the priest dies in medical, I suppose it was the god emperor's will anyway.