As is often the case on the internet, there's a huge middle ground that's being completely avoided.

No one's saying you have to hold your opponent's hand and make every decision for them, let them take back action after action after action like they've got the friggin' sands of time on their side, and allow infinite rerolls until they succeed on every check. Likewise, however, no one's saying that healthy competition means competitively timed phases, merciless rules-lawyering, crushing your enemies, driving them from the asteroid field before you, and listening to the lamentations of their Twi'lek dancers.

It's somewhere in between.

If someone's having a crummy day, maybe you show a little extra patience. If someone's getting frustrated at unlucky die rolls and they get flustered, maybe gently remind 'em about a target lock or focus token they've got handy. If someone's new to the game -- or even just new to their fancy new list -- be patient if they forget stuff, and remember you were new to something, some time in your life, too.

There are other cards, like rebel captive, that are not optional at all. It's my feeling that these are rules and both players should attempt to remember and apply (Gunner, btw, does not have a keyword like "may" that indicates it is optional). There are points in the game where you can't go back and retroactively add a stress token (like after dials are set), but in my own mind, if my opponent forgets to apply these and I keep quiet about it, I feel like I'm cheating. That's my own perspective, and I realize some people have a different take on it.

Gunner is completely optional, GUNNER & LUKE SKYWALKER The first sentence on both of these cards should read: “After you perform an attack that does not hit, you may immediately perform a primary weapon attack.” Try to make sure you are up on rules before you start nay saying people that play at tournament settings (this was a change long since done). But yes rebel captive and the like are MANDATORY and is cheating if you skip this.

I personally am along the lines of if a person forgot an action, and can take one let them take a focus. The game has a missed opportunity clause because of this entire conversation. You are expected to play at top level in tournament settings, end of the matter. You can handle that how ever you want, but honestly you are just kidding yourself if you are saying that you NEED to help your opponent, don't try to say its unsportsmanlike, cause thats a load of malarkey. While yes it is nice, if the persons best means they forget stuff, then thats their best. You playing their list for them is no longer having them play at their best, you are now playing them at their best plus a assist coach with them.

The other day Hujoe let me use Advanced Cloaking Device AFTER another ship had already fired! Such a good sport, but I had the T.O. disqualify him for cheating.

As is often the case on the internet, there's a huge middle ground that's being completely avoided.

No one's saying you have to hold your opponent's hand and make every decision for them, let them take back action after action after action like they've got the friggin' sands of time on their side, and allow infinite rerolls until they succeed on every check. Likewise, however, no one's saying that healthy competition means competitively timed phases, merciless rules-lawyering, crushing your enemies, driving them from the minefield before you, and listening to the lamentations of their Twi'lek dancers.

It's somewhere in between.

If someone's having a crummy day, maybe you show a little extra patience. If someone's getting frustrated at unlucky die rolls and they get flustered, maybe gently remind 'em about a target lock or focus token they've got handy. If someone's new to the game -- or even just new to their fancy new list -- be patient if they forget stuff, and remember you were new to something, some time in your life, too.

If the dice become totally one sided, I feel bad, and actually will try help my opponent.

Nothing worse than botching roll after roll

Especially when you have modifiers and nothing but blanks come up

This is the one way I hate to win actually

I was playing an opponent at the local during our weekly game night. He selected a left hard turn instead of a right. What he meant to do was obvious, as turning left almost sent him toward the edge antoit would take him two turns to re-engage. We both recognized the error when he flipped the dial, but he insisted on taking the selected maneuver. 1/3 of his list was out of the fight during a crucial point, so I spent the rest of the game moping up. The game was close up until that point, but my hour and a half was ultimately wasted.

I like to play to win. I don't do handicaps and the last thing that I need is amother medal to clog up the box that I keep my models in. If I go to a tournament, I want a series of close games where the only thing that matters is who had the better strategy and who used the best tactics. If any other factors get in the way, I would rather be doing something else.

This discussion is reallstudent different opinions, so that is all that I've got.

It isn't as was pointed out black and white. However, helping your opponent is never a requirement for being a good sport.

If they have Wedge, Rebel Captive, FCS, ect... something that isn't optional, then both sides have an obligation to make sure those mandatory effects are enacted. I'd even go as far as to say it's cheating if you notice and don't say anything. It would be next to impossible to prove, but I'd feel like I had cheated if I didn't do it.

I'd also make a point of correcting the mistake even after the fact, by putting a stress token on my ship or a TL.

But unless it's a mandatory effect, then no you have no obligation to point out a mistake. Failing to do so does not make you a poor sport, even if doing so may make you a good one. Good vs Bad is not binary, there is a place between the two of them.

Seeing someone who forgot to put their cloak token on after firing and having ACD, and telling them? I'd call that a good sport. Not saying anything however does not make you a bad sport.

Anyone who feels you need to help someone, is not in fact playing them at their best. You're playing them at their best + your help. There's simply no other way to really look at it.

Remembering what your options are, or just reading over the cards on the table is part of playing X-Wing. If you fail to do that, then there's no one else to blame but yourself. It's not like there's all this hidden info or special rules in a codex you have to look up.

This of course all changes if you're playing a 'teaching' game or even a practice game. If the goal isn't to win, but to help someone get a hang of the game, or even their list. Then things are of course different.

But people should not go to store or regional championships, with lists they don't know or not really even knowing how to play the game and expect someone to hold their hand and help them out.

Since this topic has sparked my interest in seeing just how many Pilot Abilities and Upgrades are considered optional, I compiled a list. Everyone is welcome to review it at their leisure.

Note: The list includes unreleased content. If there is anything missing, do let me know.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Pm-U88uabKBRnervf0b1U-XPBlWaSFH9HnHAGDpmuIs/edit?usp=sharing

[...]

This of course all changes if you're playing a 'teaching' game or even a practice game. If the goal isn't to win, but to help someone get a hang of the game, or even their list. Then things are of course different.

But people should not go to store or regional championships, with lists they don't know or not really even knowing how to play the game and expect someone to hold their hand and help them out.

I honestly agree with every point he made. Especially the last two.

Also, in a tournament setting I myself have enough to do with keeping my own ships maneuver capabilities, tactics, special rules and combos and the deathclock limitation in my head.

Especially with the big list of optional abilities shown above my opponent should and may not expect me to also keep an eye on his stuff and helping him out on top of that.

This attitude would distort the very idea of sportsmen chivalry (as in being nice to each other while competing) and turn it into a lame excuse for not having to do ones own work properly.

It isn't as was pointed out black and white. However, helping your opponent is never a requirement for being a good sport.

If they have Wedge, Rebel Captive, FCS, ect... something that isn't optional, then both sides have an obligation to make sure those mandatory effects are enacted. I'd even go as far as to say it's cheating if you notice and don't say anything. It would be next to impossible to prove, but I'd feel like I had cheated if I didn't do it.

I'd also make a point of correcting the mistake even after the fact, by putting a stress token on my ship or a TL.

But unless it's a mandatory effect, then no you have no obligation to point out a mistake. Failing to do so does not make you a poor sport, even if doing so may make you a good one. Good vs Bad is not binary, there is a place between the two of them.

Seeing someone who forgot to put their cloak token on after firing and having ACD, and telling them? I'd call that a good sport. Not saying anything however does not make you a bad sport.

It is binary, in my opinion. If you're not being a good sport, you're necessarily being a bad sport. There's no neutral sport. You either want to play in the spirit of the game or you don't. If one sees his opponent forget to cloak with his ACD and doesn't speak up, I will judge him to be a bad sport. He's trying to win on technicality rather than the spirit of the game.

Otherwise, I agree. As has been mentioned repeatedly, a player is under no obligation to remind his opponent of his options. Should an opponent lose to forgetfulness, then that's a loss that's squarely on him. Moreover, as you suggested, not every opponent error is one that requires your intervention. Judgment and critical thinking are important and there is a spectrum of choices. There are some decisions that you can't reasonably deduce. There are also some decisions that are just bad tactics. Those situations don't beg for reminders. However, there are some that are clearly decisions that an opponent didn't intend to make and artificially harm his position in the game's state. These are things I should think a good sport wants to avoid.

To look at it another way, if you can be proud about how your agency won a match, then you were likely a good sport. If instead you won because someone forgot to take an action, because someone was fifteen seconds late to the table and got DQed, or someone tripped, hit their head on the table, and had to forfeit...well, you didn't win a game of X-Wing. You just won a game. You legitimately won, mind, but really it's meaningless in terms of the spirit of the game. That's what sportsmanship is. "Sportsmanship is an aspiration or ethos that a sport or activity will be enjoyed for its own sake."

However, there are some that are clearly decisions that an opponent didn't intend to make and artificially harm his position in the game's state.

How can you know he didn't intend them? How does forgetting something become artificial?

If I'm tapping my foot, sighing a lot, asking "are you done yet?" over and over again. Then I'm trying to rush the other person, and that's actually against the rules. But everyone has time to look at the current game state and make sure everything is how they want it to be.

If I move a ship and forget to take an action, it's my own fault for not paying attention. The other guy doesn't owe me the chance to take an action. He can, but not doing so does not make him a poor sport.

I view a fairly won game to be one when I can say I beat the other guy by the rules. If that means taking advantage of his mistakes, then that doesn't mean I won unfairly, because in any competitive endeavor part of it, is taking advantage of the situation when you can.

Otherwise, we may as just roll a couple dice at the start of the match and decide the winner on who rolls better. At that point skill no longer matters, it's just random chance.

I'll keep saying this

Are you comfortable winning a tournament knowing that you would not have if your were reminded of missed opportunities along the way?

I know I sure as hell wouldn't be proud of myself

I can't speak for the rest, but i want to win based off my skill, and attention.

Not being assisted along the way.

But I guess some are comfortable with that

However, there are some that are clearly decisions that an opponent didn't intend to make and artificially harm his position in the game's state.

How can you know he didn't intend them? How does forgetting something become artificial?

If I'm tapping my foot, sighing a lot, asking "are you done yet?" over and over again. Then I'm trying to rush the other person, and that's actually against the rules. But everyone has time to look at the current game state and make sure everything is how they want it to be.

If I move a ship and forget to take an action, it's my own fault for not paying attention. The other guy doesn't owe me the chance to take an action. He can, but not doing so does not make him a poor sport.

I view a fairly won game to be one when I can say I beat the other guy by the rules. If that means taking advantage of his mistakes, then that doesn't mean I won unfairly, because in any competitive endeavor part of it, is taking advantage of the situation when you can.

Otherwise, we may as just roll a couple dice at the start of the match and decide the winner on who rolls better. At that point skill no longer matters, it's just random chance.

You can't always know. It's when you do know that you should speak up, in my opinion. If he's not taking any action with a ship, there is no harm to the game by reminding him that he has an action. If you can't clearly know his intent, well then it's his mistake to bear.

If you genuinely believe that X-Wing is about exploiting any and all weaknesses in your opponent, well then fair enough. Although by that score you should probably also be trying to intimidate opponents, buy up all ships in the local area to prevent opponents from buying them, getting in good with stores and TOs to ensure store championships are held on days and at times most beneficial to you, and hey, maybe even making sure your opponent's side of the table was freshly mopped. You should be doing everything in your power to put your opponent at a disadvantage provided what you're doing isn't against the tournament rules. That's just not something I can get down with and it, along with forgetfulness, is not something I believe to be in the spirit of the game.

To be clear, yes, it is ultimately your own fault for forgetting your options. I'm not arguing otherwise. You also would have fairly won a game were you to have won within the boundaries of the rules. There is no question of that. The question was one of sportsmanship. That is to say, whether or not you are playing the game with integrity and within the spirit of its rules.

I think your last paragraph jibes with my point, though. The spirit of the game is that it is skill that should matter. X-Wing isn't intended to be a game of memorization. It isn't meant to be a test of who is better at remembering procedures. It is intended to be a game where two people use their skill in building and flying squadrons better than the other guy by taking advantage of the holes in their opponent's lists and tactics. That's the spirit of the game.

Boxing is actually a good example for a regulated competitive physical sport. Lots of rules and sportsmanship and stuff.

Let's think of a situation equal to someone forgetting his actions during his activation phase and instead activating another ship or forgetting an obligatory action. (Not even choosing the opposite direction on his maneuver-template).

It's basically like the opposing boxer lets slip his guard by stepping forward hastily, maybe even slipping on our sweat or something. Regardless of the reason, now there's an opening for me to bring down my own heavy left hook to his chin and at least turn the match significantly to my side.

... now...

... should I be a that a good sport and let him get back into his proper stance or maybe even help him by lifting his elbow so his glass chin is save again? To make us fight on more equal grounds? Even if I have spent more time in training, studying theories or tactics and also money into the preparations of a match?

Really...? Because that's what a good sport does, innit?

If I turn up to a competition I put my skills on the line. Supposedly by knowing my stuff and knowing how to apply it properly. That's part of any competition. If I am lacking in any of these departments my chances of winning are lowered. And that's me not deserving to win because I - straight-up said - am not good enough to deserve any victory myself.

You call that a waste of time? Dude you're playing x wing. Not every game is going to come down to a critical dice roll. If that's what you want you might as well just run mirror matches. Why don't you just pet your dials down with the maneuver up so they can always pick the best one so they don't waste your time lol. This a game. That means there are going to be losers and winners. Also that means there are going to be good players and bad players. Sometimes you're going to lose horribly and sometimes you're going to crush them. That's what happens in games.

In any game, I would much rather have the winner, whether it is me or my opponent win after being reminded of gunner rather than have the game decided by a lapse of memory.

@Tenzer

Are you suggesting that a boxer should take advantage of an opponent slipping on water by delivering a hook? To call that bad sportsmanship would be a gross understatement.

Cobra kai x-wing. No mercy.

Boxing is actually a good example for a regulated competitive physical sport. Lots of rules and sportsmanship and stuff.

Let's think of a situation equal to someone forgetting his actions during his activation phase and instead activating another ship or forgetting an obligatory action. (Not even choosing the opposite direction on his maneuver-template).

It's basically like the opposing boxer lets slip his guard by stepping forward hastily, maybe even slipping on our sweat or something. Regardless of the reason, now there's an opening for me to bring down my own heavy left hook to his chin and at least turn the match significantly to my side.

... now...

... should I be a that a good sport and let him get back into his proper stance or maybe even help him by lifting his elbow so his glass chin is save again? To make us fight on more equal grounds? Even if I have spent more time in training, studying theories or tactics and also money into the preparations of a match?

Really...? Because that's what a good sport does, innit?

If I turn up to a competition I put my skills on the line. Supposedly by knowing my stuff and knowing how to apply it properly. That's part of any competition. If I am lacking in any of these departments my chances of winning are lowered. And that's me not deserving to win because I - straight-up said - am not good enough to deserve any victory myself.

It's not like that at all. A boxer letting his guard down is like an opponent taking a focus instead of an evade when an evade would have been a better decision. There's no need to correct your opponent's tactical mistake.

Instead, it's like the boxer not realizing a round has started and you sucker punch him. That's not sporting.

I'll stick with my original position of the burned hand teaches best.

Also I bet that boxer would never forget when a round started ever again...

Are you comfortable winning a tournament knowing that you would not have if your were reminded of missed opportunities along the way?

I agree, if I win because someone else pointed out a mistake on my part and let me fix it, then that puts a * next to the win IMO. I didn't really win, because without the other persons help I may not of won the match.

is not something I believe to be in the spirit of the game.

But you don't get to decide what is or isn't in the spirit of the game for someone else. Most of what you said above was not things I'd consider to be part of a normal game. Intimidation is actually directly against the rules in fact.

X-Wing isn't intended to be a game of memorization. It isn't meant to be a test of who is better at remembering procedures.

There is no memorization required, you have the cards in front of you. If you can't bother to double check your options before you commit to an action, that's not a fault of memory, that's a fault of focus.

@Tenzer

Are you suggesting that a boxer should take advantage of an opponent slipping on water by delivering a hook? To call that bad sportsmanship would be a gross understatement.

If he trips over and falls and I then punch him while he's standing up - yeah, that's bad sportsmanship.

If his stance and defense is open due to a poor move forward (for whatever reason), exploiting this fault is my right (as much as his).

I'd even give my opponent a comforting smile while delivering my punch in the latter situation just to make him feel better...!

Also I bet that boxer would never forget when a round started ever again...

Either that or he'll forget when everything on his calendar starts for the rest of his life ;-)

I don't recall asking for the game ending on a critical roll. What I asked for was that my opponent not let the game be decided on his failure to turn his dial upside down to verify that he did not select the opposite maneuver that he intended. If that determines who wins or loses, then yes, me designing my list and applying my plan was a complete waste of time.

In any game, I would much rather have the winner, whether it is me or my opponent win after being reminded of gunner rather than have the game decided by a lapse of memory.

At the same time. it happens. Sometimes one guy loses more than the other guy wins. It happens in every game or sport on the face of the earth, but I rarely see the people involved claim that the win or loss was not valid because of it.

Case in point: 2014 Australian Open. Stan Wawrinka beat an obviously injured Rafael Nadal in the final match, but the only people who questioned if his win was legitimate were a few idiot journalists looking for a lazy story. Everyone who mattered congratulated the winner and moved on with their lives.

Besides, if we start down this road, where does it end? If winning because your opponent forgot to use one of his cards* or picked the wrong direction on his turn is somehow invalid, then what about winning because he picked an illegal red? Or winning because he misjudged the distance and ended up on an asteroid? Or, for that matter, winning because the dice favoured you? Why is one of these be acceptable and the others not?

* Never mind that, a lot of the time, there is no guarantee that the forgotten card would have affected the result. Extra attacks can always miss, re-rolls and extra dice can always blank, and the damage that would have made it past the Focus you forgot to take might have killed you anyway.

However, there are some that are clearly decisions that an opponent didn't intend to make and artificially harm his position in the game's state.

How can you know he didn't intend them? How does forgetting something become artificial?

If I'm tapping my foot, sighing a lot, asking "are you done yet?" over and over again. Then I'm trying to rush the other person, and that's actually against the rules. But everyone has time to look at the current game state and make sure everything is how they want it to be.

If I move a ship and forget to take an action, it's my own fault for not paying attention. The other guy doesn't owe me the chance to take an action. He can, but not doing so does not make him a poor sport.

I view a fairly won game to be one when I can say I beat the other guy by the rules. If that means taking advantage of his mistakes, then that doesn't mean I won unfairly, because in any competitive endeavor part of it, is taking advantage of the situation when you can.

Otherwise, we may as just roll a couple dice at the start of the match and decide the winner on who rolls better. At that point skill no longer matters, it's just random chance.

You can't always know. It's when you do know that you should speak up, in my opinion. If he's not taking any action with a ship, there is no harm to the game by reminding him that he has an action. If you can't clearly know his intent, well then it's his mistake to bear.

If you genuinely believe that X-Wing is about exploiting any and all weaknesses in your opponent, well then fair enough. Although by that score you should probably also be trying to intimidate opponents, buy up all ships in the local area to prevent opponents from buying them, getting in good with stores and TOs to ensure store championships are held on days and at times most beneficial to you, and hey, maybe even making sure your opponent's side of the table was freshly mopped. You should be doing everything in your power to put your opponent at a disadvantage provided what you're doing isn't against the tournament rules. That's just not something I can get down with and it, along with forgetfulness, is not something I believe to be in the spirit of the game.

To be clear, yes, it is ultimately your own fault for forgetting your options. I'm not arguing otherwise. You also would have fairly won a game were you to have won within the boundaries of the rules. There is no question of that. The question was one of sportsmanship. That is to say, whether or not you are playing the game with integrity and within the spirit of its rules.

I think your last paragraph jibes with my point, though. The spirit of the game is that it is skill that should matter. X-Wing isn't intended to be a game of memorization. It isn't meant to be a test of who is better at remembering procedures. It is intended to be a game where two people use their skill in building and flying squadrons better than the other guy by taking advantage of the holes in their opponent's lists and tactics. That's the spirit of the game.

If someone wants to play by the rules, then who are you or anyone to judge.

It states in the tournament rules that players are to be well aware of the rules and faq, and even mentions about missing opportunities.

Now going on about getting in good with TOs or buying up all the ships is just complete nonsense.

It's not good or bad sportsmanship playing the game within the written rules made by ffg.

If you considered it unsportsmanlike then that would fall under the unsportsmanlike conduct written within the tournament rules, thereby actually making you eligible for disqualification.

Again

Are you going to wall away happy with yourself winning an event knowing you were assisted along the way?

At the end of the day you get some nice loot, and your happy knowing that if it wasn't for others being kind that you really would not have made top spot, but rather someone else.

Remembering your abilities and etc is part of the game, and is part of the skill.

Set up, outmaneuver, out thinking, and remembering every option available to you all part of the game.

No its not a game of memorization, but knowing all your options and not forgetting them is still part skill.

If someone is tired or nervous, ya it happens, but again that is part of competing. Those who can withstand the pressure and continue to perform well while being mentally exhausted is actually all part of being in a competitive event.

My opponent in a store champsionship had Ysanne on her damaged Decimator. We went to the attack phase, after an attack or two against it she asked if she could place her free evade token which she forgot to place at the start of the combat round. I did not let her, she said, "That was a douchebag move".

On Janurary 3rd I asked for 4 Saturday X-Wing store championship/special 120 point tournament dates across late Jan. and late Feburuary off. I was denied 3 of the 4 off because my postmaster is an ******* and can't give me light mail days off 2 months in advance even though I have the requisite amount of leave saved up. So I'm not jeopardizing the one store championship I get to play in, nope.

I did not let her, she said, "That was a douchebag move".

That's a perfect example...

It is not a 'douchebag move' it may not be good sportsmanship, but is not poor sportsmanship either, or worse what she said.

That person had the cards right in front of her, so the fact that she missed it is just a mistake and is exactly the kind of thing they talk about under the 'missed opportunities' section of the rules. Letting her take the evade is completely at your discretion.

Plus, after a few ships have fired, it is WAY too late to fix that mistake, since your target selection may of been different if she had the token.

It would be good sportsmanship to let her, but that does not mean that it is bad sportsmanship (or an insult-worthy move) to not let her.

It's not math, where the two things are mutually exclusive, and as such anything but the gentlest of pampering is bad sportsmanship, or vice versa. Folks love to ignore the middle, and allow that someon can just be a regular person playing a game, neither saint nor devil. Bad sportsmanship requires effort, just as much as good sportsmanship does.

Lmao I would never call someone out for not letting me take an action like ysanne that I forgot. You should have Kanye shrugged and been like fly better bruh.