And don't get me wrong, I've got no problem pointing out a more experienced opponents' mistakes, or what I would have done with their list, after the game.

AtomicPFryingPan summed up the point I was trying to make at the end with saying the definition of sportsmanship: don't be a jerk. Whether pointing out a mistake or letting your opponent make it (again, both of those things I'd consider in context), don't be a jerk about it, shake hands after the game, if there's time to discuss anything you want to point out after the game, then do so as long as you're not a jerk about it.

So as with all things on definitions of sportsmanship it all comes down to setting, who you're playing with and whether what the'yre doing is either intentionally or unintentionally breaking the rules. The last part I'd say is the most important.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. Sportsmanship doesn't have caveats of setting or who the players are. Sportmanship is about whether or not you want to play the game the way it was intended to be played. That means being fair, being courteous, being respectful, and not trying to take advantage of situations outside the intent of the game.

You'd be hard pressed to convince me that winning a game of X-Wing is supposed to be about capitalizing on your opponent's forgetfulness but hey, if you truly believe that, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I want to win a game of X-Wing, not simply defeat an opponent.

Well said. If you're truly interested in becoming a better player yourself, you're going to want to see an opponent's list function the way it was built and intended to. You're not learning anything by winning match-ups due to forgetfulness.

I can understand not correcting someone during a premiere event. At that point it may be less about developing your own skill than it is about achieving a result. But, personally, I'll usually help someone out, and I won't hesitate to ask for lenience if I myself do something stupid that is easily-correctable (Fire-Control System TLs being a preeminent example of that sort of thing).

Playing a "complete" game appeals to me. There's no better feeling than winning a game where every rule was followed, and only your skill/dice carried you through. Winning due to opponent oversight should leave you questioning whether you truly played at your best, or if you just got a dumb luck break.

The rules clearly talk about missed opportunities. So because it is in the rules I would say that capitalizing on a mistake is not poor sportsmanship. Again if you act like jerk while doing it then yes you're a bad sport.

Surely you recognize the reality that the missed opportunities (tournament) rule exists to keep the game as smooth running as possible. The designers didn't sit down and say to themselves, "I really want to make a Star Wars game about capitalizing on your opponent's forgetfulness of how to play."

If I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks only pawns can move, can only move one space forward, and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess.

It is clear that X-Wing is a game of tactical combat. I want to play that game. You are by no means obligated to remind your opponent not to forget about an ability or an action but at least be honest here: you don't want to play X-Wing at that point. You just want a check mark in the 'W' column.

The rules clearly talk about missed opportunities. So because it is in the rules I would say that capitalizing on a mistake is not poor sportsmanship. Again if you act like jerk while doing it then yes you're a bad sport.

Surely you recognize the reality that the missed opportunities (tournament) rule exists to keep the game as smooth running as possible. The designers didn't sit down and say to themselves, "I really want to make a Star Wars game about capitalizing on your opponent's forgetfulness of how to play."

If I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks every piece can only move one space forward and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess.

It is clear that X-Wing is a game of tactical combat. I want to play that game. You are by no means obligated to remind your opponent not to forget about an ability or an action but at least be honest here: you don't want to play X-Wing at that point. You just want a check mark in the 'W' column.

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it likens the mandatory game rules of chess to the abilities and upgrades in X-Wing that are entirely optional.

I'm all for everyone playing their best against one another but helping my opponent remember everything is basically just playing myself. I'm sure we can all agree that we play the game because it is fun and we enjoy it and the company of others that enjoy the same thing. In a competitive setting, which is what tournaments are (unless it falls under the casual tournament header) then you're playing to see which is the better player. In this kind of setting, helping my opponent remember all their optional abilities is not my obligation. I may choose to help them out if they are having a particularly hard time but that is completely by choice and would be a situational decision.

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it likens the mandatory game rules of chess to the abilities and upgrades in X-Wing that are entirely optional.

I edited it minutes before your post because I just knew someone would be pedantic. My edit reads:

"f I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks only pawns can move, can only move one space forward, and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess."

My point still stands. Someone is ignorant of their full breadth of options and you're trying to capitalize on that. X-Wing is a game about knowing when to use your options. It's not a game about who has the better memory of all their options.

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it likens the mandatory game rules of chess to the abilities and upgrades in X-Wing that are entirely optional.

I edited it minutes before your post because I just knew someone would be pedantic. My edit reads:

"f I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks only pawns can move, can only move one space forward, and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess."

My point still stands. Someone is ignorant of their full breadth of options and you're trying to capitalize on that. X-Wing is a game about knowing when to use your options. It's not a game about who has the better memory of all their options.

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it likens the mandatory game rules of chess to the abilities and upgrades in X-Wing that are entirely optional.

I edited it minutes before your post because I just knew someone would be pedantic. My edit reads:

"f I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks only pawns can move, can only move one space forward, and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess."

My point still stands. Someone is ignorant of their full breadth of options and you're trying to capitalize on that. X-Wing is a game about knowing when to use your options. It's not a game about who has the better memory of all their options.

So my opponent forgets to use engine upgrade. I don't remind him. Now I'm all of a sudden not playing X-Wing. Yeah, no, I don't think so. Chess players don't remind their opponents what their options are in tournaments because they should already know what they can do. if they forget a certain play or make a wrong move then their opponent will take advantage of it. So if we're likening X-Wing to chess then I see nothing wrong with taking advantage of your opponent's mistake.

...or you could stop painting the world as black and white. You don't have to pretend like a reminder is the equivalent of playing the game for your opponent.

Did he forget to boost? Okay, maybe he forgot to boost. You can't reasonably know that though because as far as you're aware, he took the action he meant to take. No need to remind him that he has an engine upgrade.

Did he forget to take *any* action? Perhaps then you could chime in before he reveals his next dial. Clearly, he didn't intend to refuse taking his action.

Does he have a turret secondary but always tries to get you in his arc? Well, maybe he's going for primary shots.

Does he have a target, but elects not to make an attack at all? Maybe you ought to remind him that he has a shot.

Play the game the way it's meant to be played, which assumes two rational players. You can't hope to prevent him from making all errors but you can help mitigate the obvious ones to ensure the game is sporting. Again, you're under no obligation to remind an opponent of potential forgetfulness and any negative side effects are certainly his to bear. Just don't pretend you also get to call yourself a good sport in those situations. You most certainly do not.

The rules clearly talk about missed opportunities. So because it is in the rules I would say that capitalizing on a mistake is not poor sportsmanship. Again if you act like jerk while doing it then yes you're a bad sport.

Surely you recognize the reality that the missed opportunities (tournament) rule exists to keep the game as smooth running as possible. The designers didn't sit down and say to themselves, "I really want to make a Star Wars game about capitalizing on your opponent's forgetfulness of how to play."

If I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks only pawns can move, can only move one space forward, and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess.

It is clear that X-Wing is a game of tactical combat. I want to play that game. You are by no means obligated to remind your opponent not to forget about an ability or an action but at least be honest here: you don't want to play X-Wing at that point. You just want a check mark in the 'W' column.

Why does playing X-wing and getting a check in my W column have to be exclusive. I love seeing and playing this game at a high level. The game isn't just list vs list or dice vs dice. You're up against the opponent as well. That means things like being able to remember how your squad functions is a factor. I'm not a chess master. Chess master so and so is a chess master because he has a deep understanding of the game and how his pieces work and has plans upon plans upon plans. I don't think that way about chess so me playing sub optimally is reasonable and it is also reasonable to assume chess master will beat me because or it. It would be like if didn't see an opening where my bishop could take his queen so I move a knight instead. I'm not playing optimally and I assume you're not gonna let me take my move back and capture your strongest piece.

What do you do against someone who picks terrible maneuvers or lands on rocks? What if they thought you were going right and they went left? Do you have them change their maneuvers so they are completely optimal?

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it likens the mandatory game rules of chess to the abilities and upgrades in X-Wing that are entirely optional.

I edited it minutes before your post because I just knew someone would be pedantic. My edit reads:

"f I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks only pawns can move, can only move one space forward, and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess."

My point still stands. Someone is ignorant of their full breadth of options and you're trying to capitalize on that. X-Wing is a game about knowing when to use your options. It's not a game about who has the better memory of all their options.

So my opponent forgets to use engine upgrade. I don't remind him. Now I'm all of a sudden not playing X-Wing. Yeah, no, I don't think so. Chess players don't remind their opponents what their options are in tournaments because they should already know what they can do. if they forget a certain play or make a wrong move then their opponent will take advantage of it. So if we're likening X-Wing to chess then I see nothing wrong with taking advantage of your opponent's mistake.

...or you could stop painting the world as black and white. You don't have to pretend like a reminder is the equivalent of playing the game for your opponent.

Did he forget to boost? Okay, maybe he forgot to boost. You can't reasonably know that though because as far as you're aware, he took the action he meant to take. No need to remind him that he has an engine upgrade.

Did he forget to take *any* action? Perhaps then you could chime in before he reveals his next dial. Clearly, he didn't intend to refuse taking his action.

Does he have a turret secondary but always tries to get you in his arc? Well, maybe he's going for primary shots.

Does he have a target, but elects not to make an attack at all? Maybe you ought to remind him that he has a shot.

Play the game the way it's meant to be played, which assumes two rational players. You can't hope to prevent him from making all errors but you can help mitigate the obvious ones to ensure the game is sporting. Again, you're under no obligation to remind an opponent of potential forgetfulness and any negative side effects are certainly his to bear. Just don't pretend you also get to call yourself a good sport in those situations. You most certainly do not.

A good sport shouldn't expect his opponent to forgive mistakes he makes. That's presumptuous and rude to expect your opponent to give you help. To then say that your opponent is not a sportsman because he wouldn't remind you of your abilities or let you cheat by going back and taking an action after the fact is ridiculous behavior.

The rules clearly talk about missed opportunities. So because it is in the rules I would say that capitalizing on a mistake is not poor sportsmanship. Again if you act like jerk while doing it then yes you're a bad sport.

Surely you recognize the reality that the missed opportunities (tournament) rule exists to keep the game as smooth running as possible. The designers didn't sit down and say to themselves, "I really want to make a Star Wars game about capitalizing on your opponent's forgetfulness of how to play."

If I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks every piece can only move one space forward and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess.

It is clear that X-Wing is a game of tactical combat. I want to play that game. You are by no means obligated to remind your opponent not to forget about an ability or an action but at least be honest here: you don't want to play X-Wing at that point. You just want a check mark in the 'W' column.

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it likens the mandatory game rules of chess to the abilities and upgrades in X-Wing that are entirely optional.

I'm all for everyone playing their best against one another but helping my opponent remember everything is basically just playing myself. I'm sure we can all agree that we play the game because it is fun and we enjoy it and the company of others that enjoy the same thing. In a competitive setting, which is what tournaments are (unless it falls under the casual tournament header) then you're playing to see which is the better player. In this kind of setting, helping my opponent remember all their optional abilities is not my obligation. I may choose to help them out if they are having a particularly hard time but that is completely by choice and would be a situational decision.

There are some upgrades, like Engine Upgrade, that are are solely tactical decisions, usually in place of another decision. In this case, another action like a focus or target lock. The stress droid, as I mentioned, has a negative consequence attached to it for both players. Those are not "rules" as much as they are decisions made by the player.

There are other cards, like rebel captive, that are not optional at all. It's my feeling that these are rules and both players should attempt to remember and apply . There are points in the game where you can't go back and retroactively add a stress token (like after dials are set), but in my own mind, if my opponent forgets to apply these and I keep quiet about it, I feel like I'm cheating. That's my own perspective, and I realize some people have a different take on it.

Cards like Predator are tougher because they have the "may" keyword. Largely, though, that's because you may want to reroll a hit into a crit, or you may not want to reroll have one hit out of four dice and want to hope your opponent evades it and lets you activate gunner for a better overall attack the second time around. In the case where my opponent has a blank sitting out there without a good reason not to reroll it, I'll ask if they want to use it. Again, because I feel like they paid for predator and I'm getting away with something if I just let it sit out there with them missing it.

Again, this is just how I play as it creates a much more enjoyable and positive experience, in both casual games and tournaments for me (and usually my opponent). I also find that they tend to remember the rule the next time around, maybe because it takes away some of the stress and pressure (which actually inhibit the learning process and memory).

I understand some people feel differently about that, and I don't expect my own philosophy from my opponents, and don't usually think less of people that deny their opponent missed opportunities (I say "usually" because I know there are people -- a very few -- that actually try to move quickly and push their opponent into them).

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it likens the mandatory game rules of chess to the abilities and upgrades in X-Wing that are entirely optional.

I edited it minutes before your post because I just knew someone would be pedantic. My edit reads:

"f I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks only pawns can move, can only move one space forward, and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess."

My point still stands. Someone is ignorant of their full breadth of options and you're trying to capitalize on that. X-Wing is a game about knowing when to use your options. It's not a game about who has the better memory of all their options.

So my opponent forgets to use engine upgrade. I don't remind him. Now I'm all of a sudden not playing X-Wing. Yeah, no, I don't think so. Chess players don't remind their opponents what their options are in tournaments because they should already know what they can do. if they forget a certain play or make a wrong move then their opponent will take advantage of it. So if we're likening X-Wing to chess then I see nothing wrong with taking advantage of your opponent's mistake.

...or you could stop painting the world as black and white. You don't have to pretend like a reminder is the equivalent of playing the game for your opponent.

Did he forget to boost? Okay, maybe he forgot to boost. You can't reasonably know that though because as far as you're aware, he took the action he meant to take. No need to remind him that he has an engine upgrade.

Did he forget to take *any* action? Perhaps then you could chime in before he reveals his next dial. Clearly, he didn't intend to refuse taking his action.

Does he have a turret secondary but always tries to get you in his arc? Well, maybe he's going for primary shots.

Does he have a target, but elects not to make an attack at all? Maybe you ought to remind him that he has a shot.

Play the game the way it's meant to be played, which assumes two rational players. You can't hope to prevent him from making all errors but you can help mitigate the obvious ones to ensure the game is sporting. Again, you're under no obligation to remind an opponent of potential forgetfulness and any negative side effects are certainly his to bear. Just don't pretend you also get to call yourself a good sport in those situations. You most certainly do not.

A good sport shouldn't expect his opponent to forgive mistakes he makes. That's presumptuous and rude to expect your opponent to give you help. To then say that your opponent is not a sportsman because he wouldn't remind you of your abilities or let you cheat by going back and taking an action after the fact is ridiculous behavior.

Ironically, imo, good sportsmanship does not apply exactly the same to both perspectives of the situation and are not mutually exclusive. I agree that a good sportsman should not expect his opponent to give him "help" or remind him of missed opportunities. However, I also think a good sport does help remind his opponent of them.

Your analogy doesn't apply, since it likens the mandatory game rules of chess to the abilities and upgrades in X-Wing that are entirely optional.

I edited it minutes before your post because I just knew someone would be pedantic. My edit reads:

"f I beat someone in a game of Chess because he thinks only pawns can move, can only move one space forward, and I didn't tell him otherwise, yeah okay, I guess I win. Really though, I wasn't playing Chess."

My point still stands. Someone is ignorant of their full breadth of options and you're trying to capitalize on that. X-Wing is a game about knowing when to use your options. It's not a game about who has the better memory of all their options.

So my opponent forgets to use engine upgrade. I don't remind him. Now I'm all of a sudden not playing X-Wing. Yeah, no, I don't think so. Chess players don't remind their opponents what their options are in tournaments because they should already know what they can do. if they forget a certain play or make a wrong move then their opponent will take advantage of it. So if we're likening X-Wing to chess then I see nothing wrong with taking advantage of your opponent's mistake.

...or you could stop painting the world as black and white. You don't have to pretend like a reminder is the equivalent of playing the game for your opponent.

Did he forget to boost? Okay, maybe he forgot to boost. You can't reasonably know that though because as far as you're aware, he took the action he meant to take. No need to remind him that he has an engine upgrade.

Did he forget to take *any* action? Perhaps then you could chime in before he reveals his next dial. Clearly, he didn't intend to refuse taking his action.

Does he have a turret secondary but always tries to get you in his arc? Well, maybe he's going for primary shots.

Does he have a target, but elects not to make an attack at all? Maybe you ought to remind him that he has a shot.

Play the game the way it's meant to be played, which assumes two rational players. You can't hope to prevent him from making all errors but you can help mitigate the obvious ones to ensure the game is sporting. Again, you're under no obligation to remind an opponent of potential forgetfulness and any negative side effects are certainly his to bear. Just don't pretend you also get to call yourself a good sport in those situations. You most certainly do not.

A good sport shouldn't expect his opponent to forgive mistakes he makes. That's presumptuous and rude to expect your opponent to give you help. To then say that your opponent is not a sportsman because he wouldn't remind you of your abilities or let you cheat by going back and taking an action after the fact is ridiculous behavior.

Ironically, imo, good sportsmanship does not apply exactly the same to both perspectives of the situation and are not mutually exclusive. I agree that a good sportsman should not expect his opponent to give him "help" or remind him of missed opportunities. However, I also think a good sport does help remind his opponent of them.

I don't play that way casually because of a worry of whether I'm being a sportsman. Being a sportsman has nothing to do with helping your opponent.

I actually went and looked up the definition of sportsman.

"sportsmanlike conduct, as fairness, courtesy, being a cheerful loser, etc"

Again, nothing to do with helping your opponent. In fact, helping your opponent goes against the idea of competition.

In fact, helping your opponent goes against the idea of competition.

PSA - You only have to quote the relevant part of the post that you are replying to. Reading a thread on a cell phone is bad enough as it is.

There are other cards, like rebel captive, that are not optional at all. It's my feeling that these are rules and both players should attempt to remember and apply (Gunner, btw, does not have a keyword like "may" that indicates it is optional). There are points in the game where you can't go back and retroactively add a stress token (like after dials are set), but in my own mind, if my opponent forgets to apply these and I keep quiet about it, I feel like I'm cheating. That's my own perspective, and I realize some people have a different take on it.

Gunner is completely optional, GUNNER & LUKE SKYWALKER The first sentence on both of these cards should read: “After you perform an attack that does not hit, you may immediately perform a primary weapon attack.” Try to make sure you are up on rules before you start nay saying people that play at tournament settings (this was a change long since done). But yes rebel captive and the like are MANDATORY and is cheating if you skip this.

I personally am along the lines of if a person forgot an action, and can take one let them take a focus. The game has a missed opportunity clause because of this entire conversation. You are expected to play at top level in tournament settings, end of the matter. You can handle that how ever you want, but honestly you are just kidding yourself if you are saying that you NEED to help your opponent, don't try to say its unsportsmanlike, cause thats a load of malarkey. While yes it is nice, if the persons best means they forget stuff, then thats their best. You playing their list for them is no longer having them play at their best, you are now playing them at their best plus a assist coach with them.

Helping someone off the ground when they fall on their butt is not the same as helping your opponent with their strategy in mid-game. That would be like a quarterback during a time-out in Football, walking over to the other quarterback and saying "Hey, you should totally use this strategy against my team because of this, this and this."

That comparison would only be relevant if people were advocating tactical advice like "You should bank left this turn" but they are not.

I'm glad that this conversation about sportsmanship norms comes up from time to time. Clearly there are some different philosophies out there on what works best. There was quite an epic thread a while ago in which there was both agreement to disagree, as well as the discovery that the disagreements seemed larger than they were.

Okay, so much for meta on the norm debate.

I think you kind of have to judge matters on a case-by-case basis. How badly do you feel you need to win? How much do you value your X-Wing-playing community's friendliness? Does the person (such as the OP's opponent) seem a little out of it? If they're out of it, then you should be less worried about your win (because that's a fair bet at that point), and more about not being a ****. Help the guy have a friendly experience as you continue to beat the hell out of him on the spacemat.

Like a previous poster said, I do think that it's a good idea for opponents to go over eachother's lists. Give your opponents friendly compliments like, "Oh, I see what you're doing with that combination there, that's pretty sharp!" or "Aha, a Fat Han list. Well, that will be a challenge!" It's a great way to break the ice and also internalize the opponent's list a little before you determine initiative.

While I'm sure there's a psy-ops way of playing this game, let's not have this game's culture turn into that. You don't have to play another person's list for them, but you can help someone feel comfortable.

I'm sorry but I'll never understand the comment of " I'll help my opponent because I want to play him at his best"

Isn't helping someone in a tournament game them playing at their best but also with your help?

If someone is forgetting important abilities and actions, then maybe that is their skill lvl

A new player ya it's understandable and I can see that as you don't want to discouraged them

But an experienced players playing over a year let's say. It's sink or swim imo

Plus in my case, I sometimes travel to go to an event

I'm not driving for hours to hold someone's hand.

I'm going to play, yes have fun, but also test My skill.

Part of that skill is for myself make sure I play at my best. Not have someone hold my hand and vice versa

But don't take me as a strict player.

If someone forgot an action, I'm usually happy to let them do a focus as default

Other things as well which I described earlier

And most times honestly I probably don't even notice as I'm usually deep in thought thinking 2-3 turns ahead

Helping someone off the ground when they fall on their butt is not the same as helping your opponent with their strategy in mid-game. That would be like a quarterback during a time-out in Football, walking over to the other quarterback and saying "Hey, you should totally use this strategy against my team because of this, this and this."

Besides, telling someone that they have gunner instead of wringing your hands and basking in your own mental superiority after they roll a set of blanks and immediately start assigning maneuvers has NOTHING to do with strategy.

@Krynn

Would you actually enjoy traveling to compete against another player and then winning because your opponent did not get enough sleep last night (or was forgetful for whatever reason)? Are you really testing your own skill if your opponent forgets to use gunner for the entire game? How is it a meaningful test of skill if you essentially have a 5 point handicap?

I alert my opponent to any and all no-brainer options that are available because I want to compete. I play in my limited free time to satisfy myself and winning against someone who makes mistakes (glaring mistakes, that is, so I am fine with someone taking a risk and landing on an asteroid, for example) really lessens my experience.

I'm sorry but I'll never understand the comment of " I'll help my opponent because I want to play him at his best"

Isn't helping someone in a tournament game them playing at their best but also with your help?

It doesn't seem very hard to understand. It's like a tennis player who prefers to beat an opponent who is in top form rather than one who just took a bad step and sprained his ankle. You can agree or disagree with such a stance (I'm relatively neutral about it - the context matters a lot to me), but the basic principle is not that difficult to grasp.

The X-Wing equivalent would be that some prefer to win from someone who remembers his predator card but is not able to take full advantage of it, rather than from someone who just forgets it at a crucial moment and therefore gives you a kind of lucky break. And just as a tennis player might grant his opponent time to treat an ankle, you could give your opponent in X-Wing a gentle reminder, giving you the chance to win in the manner you might prefer. I totally understand where this is coming from, and to claim you will never understand this seems denying the obvious.

There are other cards, like rebel captive, that are not optional at all. It's my feeling that these are rules and both players should attempt to remember and apply (Gunner, btw, does not have a keyword like "may" that indicates it is optional). There are points in the game where you can't go back and retroactively add a stress token (like after dials are set), but in my own mind, if my opponent forgets to apply these and I keep quiet about it, I feel like I'm cheating. That's my own perspective, and I realize some people have a different take on it.

Gunner is completely optional, GUNNER & LUKE SKYWALKER The first sentence on both of these cards should read: “After you perform an attack that does not hit, you may immediately perform a primary weapon attack.” Try to make sure you are up on rules before you start nay saying people that play at tournament settings (this was a change long since done). But yes rebel captive and the like are MANDATORY and is cheating if you skip this.

I personally am along the lines of if a person forgot an action, and can take one let them take a focus. The game has a missed opportunity clause because of this entire conversation. You are expected to play at top level in tournament settings, end of the matter. You can handle that how ever you want, but honestly you are just kidding yourself if you are saying that you NEED to help your opponent, don't try to say its unsportsmanlike, cause thats a load of malarkey. While yes it is nice, if the persons best means they forget stuff, then thats their best. You playing their list for them is no longer having them play at their best, you are now playing them at their best plus a assist coach with them.

Whoops. You're right that I forgot about that and was just reading the card (and have now edited that). Shows you how little I use it as I rarely play big ships and I've not seen someone invoke the "may" clause on it.

I realize people are incredibly sensitive about this issue, but you should also note that I didn't "naysay" anyone else but focused on my own perspective. I didn't use the word "need" in the case of "reminding" my opponent of his cards, I just have a more enjoyable game and feel better about it overall if I do that.

I was also incredibly careful not to use the word "unsportsmanlike" because I don't think it's "unsportsmanlike" to disallow missed opportunities. I just don't think it's a higher standard of sportsmanship, though either. There are gradations.

The bottom line is that while sportsmanship is a gray area, and there are a variety of levels and aspects of it. It seems that some people want to be considered "good" sports for simply following the rules, which, imo, is the most basic level of sportsmanship, not the epitome of it. Some people are bristling at the idea (going as far as to say that basic card interaction is "playing their list for them" or "holding their hand"). There's nothing wrong with disallowing those missed opportunities and the OP certainly shouldn't have had to do all that reminding. But I simply disagree with people that seem to imply that it is actually good sportsmanship to actually play that way.

Of course, allowing or not allowing missed opportunities isn't the sole defining characteristic of a good sportsman in X-wing either.

For example, we played in the final round of the last TC open and you had some poor attack dice and defense dice on your named phantom. After the game, I mentioned your dice were pretty horrible (Echo moved within R1 of a TIE, whiffed and lost her three remaining health to that single R1 Tie despite being cloaked). You could easily have agreed with that but instead pointed out that you had a couple of other places Echo could have moved that would have been better -- that's good sportsmanship.

Helping someone off the ground when they fall on their butt is not the same as helping your opponent with their strategy in mid-game. That would be like a quarterback during a time-out in Football, walking over to the other quarterback and saying "Hey, you should totally use this strategy against my team because of this, this and this."

I did not say that they were the same that post that I responded to said that helping an opponent damages the competition, which I think is not true.

Besides, telling someone that they have gunner instead of wringing your hands and basking in your own mental superiority after they roll a set of blanks and immediately start assigning maneuvers has NOTHING to do with strategy.

@Krynn

Would you actually enjoy traveling to compete against another player and then winning because your opponent did not get enough sleep last night (or was forgetful for whatever reason)? Are you really testing your own skill if your opponent forgets to use gunner for the entire game? How is it a meaningful test of skill if you essentially have a 5 point handicap?

I alert my opponent to any and all no-brainer options that are available because I want to compete. I play in my limited free time to satisfy myself and winning against someone who makes mistakes (glaring mistakes, that is, so I am fine with someone taking a risk and landing on an asteroid, for example) really lessens my experience.

Well Ive traveled to away events.

Actually I had to get my cousin to drive because I had 0 sleep and was sick.

I did quite well. Got second place in Imdaar alpha, but coming on to the last two games I could definitely feel the ware

And yes I made some criticle mistakes which did cause me the game.

So to me that is only an excuse. I did not do any backsies.

It's up to the player to be in tip top shape.

I wasn't and I did the best I could in my condition and I feel I did quite well.

Again if I travel to an event it's not my responsibility to make sure my opponents slept well.

I can ask the same question

If you happen to win an event but had to be reminded every game of a crucial ability on your list, are you going to feel comfortable?

I'd actually feel embarrassed. Knowing that I really would not be there if not for people reminding me.

If I shot at fel missed my opponent reminded me of gunner and I one shot him.

I'd feel utterly terrible.

Again reread what I said.

I'm not overly strict.

If you forgot to take an action, I'm fine with a focus by default.

In friendly games we can do backsies all day. I don't care

In a tournament event you are to be at your best.

If you didn't sleep well, then tough it out. I did, and I did fine for the most part.

The while tennis analogy is actually quite different

If a athlete hurts himself that is very different then helping him swing his racket.

If a football team is losing the other team doesn't tell them, oh well why don't you try this.

And back to the tennis analogy. If a player playing xwing is forgetting things, maybe that's their best. If they had lots of sleep, are not sick and just plain forget, then that is their best.

Nothing to do with injuries

Imo they are playing their best with assistance.

I'm sorry but I'll never understand the comment of " I'll help my opponent because I want to play him at his best"

Isn't helping someone in a tournament game them playing at their best but also with your help?

If someone is forgetting important abilities and actions, then maybe that is their skill lvl

Very interesting point. And well stated. I suppose that in this case, "Best" can have a few different ways of being interpretted. Sure it may be a veteran player who simply forgot to focus, or forgot to get his auto-Target Lock after attacking with a Fire Control System... and maybe you want to beat him at his best by not taking advantage of his forgetfulness...

But maybe it's an experienced player who is simply nervous or otherwise stricken by anxiety due to tournament conditions? Some tournaments can have TONS of people and activity. The playing area tends to get warmer due to so many bodies, and someone who plays fine normally might have some difficulty when the surroundings become overly noisy and crowded. Being especially kind and lenient to your opponent can help ease their stress and can be a very nice thing to do. Granted this isn't something I'm saying you "Must" do... but it is something I'd encourage people to do.

On a third level, I suppose you can transform someone into their "best", by reminding them, or allowing them to do forgotten actions, etc. One of my first tournaments I faced a guy who was forgetting almost all of his actions and I didn't remind him. As a result I won. However later on I faced a guy who let me go back and do something that I forgot. (And he TOTALLY didn't have to). He inspired me to be a better sport, and a better person. So I suppose that it's like Karma. Be exceedingly good to others, so you can spread goodness wherever you go. For the sake of goodness. It may come back to help you as well, but even if it doesn't it's still a good idea.

I was playing an opponent at the local during our weekly game night. He selected a left hard turn instead of a right. What he meant to do was obvious, as turning left almost sent him toward the edge antoit would take him two turns to re-engage. We both recognized the error when he flipped the dial, but he insisted on taking the selected maneuver. 1/3 of his list was out of the fight during a crucial point, so I spent the rest of the game moping up. The game was close up until that point, but my hour and a half was ultimately wasted.

I like to play to win. I don't do handicaps and the last thing that I need is amother medal to clog up the box that I keep my models in. If I go to a tournament, I want a series of close games where the only thing that matters is who had the better strategy and who used the best tactics. If any other factors get in the way, I would rather be doing something else.

This discussion is reallstudent different opinions, so that is all that I've got.

Helping someone off the ground when they fall on their butt is not the same as helping your opponent with their strategy in mid-game. That would be like a quarterback during a time-out in Football, walking over to the other quarterback and saying "Hey, you should totally use this strategy against my team because of this, this and this."

NO ONE IS EXPECTING YOU TO HELP AN OPPONENT WITH THEIR STRATEGY.

Jesus Christ.