because they think they are being perceived as "unsportsmanlike," which again, many have said isn't the case.

It is the case though. I went through the first 3 or 4 pages and here's a series of quotes that quite clearly are saying that people who don't point out a mistake or missed opportunity are being unsportsmanlike.

Winning because someone is forgetful is no different than winning because they are an idiot, which is a terribly hallow achievement.

I would always remind a player if he forgot something and I noticed whatever the game. Its called sportsmanship.

I think intentionally trying to win on a mistake makes you a bit of a dork.

You are by no means obligated to remind your opponent not to forget about an ability or an action but at least be honest here: you don't want to play X-Wing at that point. You just want a check mark in the 'W' column.

It is binary, in my opinion. If you're not being a good sport, you're necessarily being a bad sport.

So clearly there are a number of people posting in this thread who are explicitly calling anyone who doesn't play by how they define the "spirit of the game" to be poor sports. If I wanted to I could go back through the last 10 or so threads on this topic and find another 15-20 cases where people who don't forgive mistakes or point out missed opportunities are called bad sports.

because they think they are being perceived as "unsportsmanlike," which again, many have said isn't the case.

It is the case though. I went through the first 3 or 4 pages and here's a series of quotes that quite clearly are saying that people who don't point out a mistake or missed opportunity are being unsportsmanlike.

Winning because someone is forgetful is no different than winning because they are an idiot, which is a terribly hallow achievement.

I would always remind a player if he forgot something and I noticed whatever the game. Its called sportsmanship.

I think intentionally trying to win on a mistake makes you a bit of a dork.

You are by no means obligated to remind your opponent not to forget about an ability or an action but at least be honest here: you don't want to play X-Wing at that point. You just want a check mark in the 'W' column.

It is binary, in my opinion. If you're not being a good sport, you're necessarily being a bad sport.

So clearly there are a number of people posting in this thread who are explicitly calling anyone who doesn't play by how they define the "spirit of the game" to be poor sports. If I wanted to I could go back through the last 10 or so threads on this topic and find another 15-20 cases where people who don't forgive mistakes or point out missed opportunities are called bad sports.

Also, there would be no reason to include this part of the missed opportunities section if it were considered being a bad sport: "If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent."

If it were being a bad sport to not consent to take backsies then you wouldn't be allowed that option in the first place.

Bully for them.

Not sure if you're replying to what I said or not.

If it were being a bad sport to not consent to take backsies then you wouldn't be allowed that option in the first place.

I agree, most of us agree. But yet there are still people who want to make it a moral or ethical issue when you don't.

To anyone who says "I'd feel like it was a cheap win", great. Play how you feel, I'm not going to say anything to you about it. I may refuse your offer, or I may reply in kind and point out something you forget.

My issue, my only issue ever is when someone wants to call those who don't feel that way a poor sport, which does happen quite often.

because they think they are being perceived as "unsportsmanlike," which again, many have said isn't the case.

It is the case though. I went through the first 3 or 4 pages and here's a series of quotes that quite clearly are saying that people who don't point out a mistake or missed opportunity are being unsportsmanlike.

Winning because someone is forgetful is no different than winning because they are an idiot, which is a terribly hallow achievement.

I would always remind a player if he forgot something and I noticed whatever the game. Its called sportsmanship.

I think intentionally trying to win on a mistake makes you a bit of a dork.

You are by no means obligated to remind your opponent not to forget about an ability or an action but at least be honest here: you don't want to play X-Wing at that point. You just want a check mark in the 'W' column.

It is binary, in my opinion. If you're not being a good sport, you're necessarily being a bad sport.

So clearly there are a number of people posting in this thread who are explicitly calling anyone who doesn't play by how they define the "spirit of the game" to be poor sports. If I wanted to I could go back through the last 10 or so threads on this topic and find another 15-20 cases where people who don't forgive mistakes or point out missed opportunities are called bad sports.

That's an impressive amount of work, but I never said, "No one said you're a bad sport if you don't allow missed opportunities." I was pointing out that some people who do allow missed opportunities also said not allowing them doesn't define you as a "bad sport."

You are crossing concepts. Whether or not a victory is meaningful or not has nothing to do with sportsmanship. You could play against someone with an IQ in the 70s and win after extending them every courtesy imaginable and exercising the epitome of good character, but that wouldn't change that fact that it was impossible for you to lose if you put even a modicum of effort into it.

VanorDM, I think I misinterpreted your previous post I replied to. Bully for them was directed at the people you pointed out are calling others bad sports.

I was pointing out that some people who do allow missed opportunities also said not allowing them doesn't define you as a "bad sport."

Fair enough, but there are a number of people who do. Which is what cause some of us to get a bit bristly as you put it. Sure not everyone may say that, but enough do that it requires a response, and does color the response some of us make. Especially after the 150th time this subject has been brought up and people make that very claim a number of times.

@resv

I can agree with your post.

I mentioned pride because (and coming from a long background of playing competitive sports growing up) if I won, I did it on my own.

I've never felt happier knowing that I did my best and despite how well I placed, knowing I did my best and earned my achievement.

Which is why I've refused going back in some of my games when I realized I forgot something and my opponent was kind enough to try to let me have it.

I just tell them, no I missed it and that is my fault

I'll either make up for it and win, or be it my downfall and lose, but if it's the latter it doesn't happen again.

Which actually for me, makes me a stronger player

I think that makes perfect sense Krynn. You own up to your own mistakes and, most importantly, you try to overcome and recover. That is something to be truly proud of I think and it honestly does make sense to expect the same from your opponent. I would hope they would have the same attitude and attempt to become a stronger player rather than rely on or expect to always be forgiven their mistakes once they have realized them.

@Vanor:

I think compassion and fair play can sometimes get bundled together. I love playing against a really good opponent. Win or lose, if it is an exciting game I get really into it. For me, that is the hight of X-Wing (or really any game). Exploiting a bad maneuver choice your opponent has made is part of the game, some might say a major part. Your opponent forgetting to roll gunner is in the same vein I think. I don't think the concept of compassion for your opponent and the concept of fair play are different or mutually exclusive but I do think they can sometimes be in conflict.

I don't think the concept of compassion for your opponent and the concept of fair play are different or mutually exclusive but I do think they can sometimes be in conflict.

Fair play and compassion aren't the same thing. Fair play is both sides playing by the same rules, and using the same standards.

If I forgot gunner, and the other guy mentioned it to me. I believe I have two options. I either refuse to use it, because it was my mistake, and I'll own it. Or I take the shot, and that point I now 'owe' him one in return.

Because if I don't return the favor, then we're no longer playing by the same standard. I'm playing a game in which the other guy helps me, but he isn't. But if I refuse his help, then I feel no obligation to help him, because then we're again playing by the same standard.

I do not however feel that if I don't offer help, I've beaten the other guy at something other than his or her best, because someone's best is pretty much never the same every time. That's just the nature of any sort of activity. Somedays you play flawlessly, sometimes you trip over your own two feet and lose the game. It's just the nature of a game for those things to happen. That's why we don't use single elimination, other than perhaps the top 8 in a tournament. How well you played is based on 5+ games, not just the one.

Again I'm not judging anyone who feels differently, I just don't feel I should be judged harshly in return, which is what happens far too often in these threads.

I mean the quote I posted above "I think intentionally trying to win on a mistake makes you a bit of a dork." I just don't see how anyone could avoid being a bit offended at that statement, if they don't allow people to fix missed opportunities. Unless someone is going to seriously claim being called a dork is somehow a good thing.

Ok, to shift this discussion a bit and I'm curious.

Let's say your opponent has a card like Carnor Jax or Rebel Captive. These are cards that are not "may" cards they are essentially additional rules. Yes, they are on your opponent's side of the board but they are things, that as brought up in the thread are not optional.

Now, you know you are going to trigger that effect by shooting at the rebel captive or that your easily within range 1 of Jax and you can't take a focus or evade. Would you consider it "good sportsmanship" to try to sneak that token by your opponent, forcing him to remind you every time and hope he forgets?

Yes, they are on your opponent's side of the board but they are things, that as brought up in the thread are not optional.

Funny, we're actually discussing that on the Rules form...

Would you consider it "good sportsmanship" to try to sneak that token by your opponent, forcing him to remind you every time and hope he forgets?

No, because you are in effect cheating and cheating is pretty much the polar opposite of good sportsmanship. Those are as you point out mandatory effects, and as such if I intentionally ignore them I am IMO at least breaking the rules of the game.

Yes, they are on your opponent's side of the board but they are things, that as brought up in the thread are not optional.

Funny, we're actually discussing that on the Rules form...

Would you consider it "good sportsmanship" to try to sneak that token by your opponent, forcing him to remind you every time and hope he forgets?

No, because you are in effect cheating and cheating is pretty much the polar opposite of good sportsmanship. Those are as you point out mandatory effects, and as such if I intentionally ignore them I am IMO at least breaking the rules of the game.

I tend to agree (and I did see that), but I am wondering if there are some that think even these items are "playing someone else's list for them."

but I am wondering if there are some that think even these items are "playing someone else's list for them."

Apparently yes. Because some in that thread were arguing that things like Rebel Captive fall under the rules of Missed Opportunities. So if I "forget" to take the stress and you don't point it out to me, then that's a missed opportunity on your part.

Ok, to shift this discussion a bit and I'm curious.

Let's say your opponent has a card like Carnor Jax or Rebel Captive. These are cards that are not "may" cards they are essentially additional rules. Yes, they are on your opponent's side of the board but they are things, that as brought up in the thread are not optional.

Now, you know you are going to trigger that effect by shooting at the rebel captive or that your easily within range 1 of Jax and you can't take a focus or evade. Would you consider it "good sportsmanship" to try to sneak that token by your opponent, forcing him to remind you every time and hope he forgets?

If you notice these and try to pretend or play stupid, your outright cheating, but it's hard to prove.

I use rebel captive a lot, and I've forgotten to remind my opponent about it. Sometimes more than once in a game.

Once or twice during the planning phase I'd then remind them, and they would get all huffy ( on vassal never had problem at store or home)

One guy even told me he knew but didn't say anything because I never said anything. Even though I believe he didn't know it, that was cheating.

When I first started playing I forgot to reduce my agility by one when defending from wedge. After I rolled my opponent would point it out. Sometimes turning three natural evades to two blanks.

Because of this with the help of vassal I always call it out, 3 vs 2. If there is something I may have missed I hope it is caught before I roll. Stealth device as another example.

During tournament I'll even double check to make sure either of us missed something.

If I'm attacking howlrunner after calling it out I'll ask no stealth correct? Ok let's roll

In a tournament if you know your shooting at a ship with rebel captive and don't put the stress on your ship, and your opponent doesn't say anything, ya that is cheating.

It's both players responsibility to play by the rules, and make sure all mandatory effects are resolved properly.

An ability with the option to use or not is not considered a mandatory effect. Therefore it falls under the missed opportunity guide written in the tournament rules by ffg

Calling someone a dork, or a bad sport for simply playing within the rules written by ffg is actually in the bad sportsmanship category

This is probably going to sound nitpicky (and possibly hypocritical), but I think there's a line between "helps your opponent" and "hurts you." If your opponent forgets something that's a benefit to them -- extra attack dice, Gunner, FCS, etc -- that should be on them to remember to use it. If they forget something that hurts you -- Rebel Captive, Wedge -- then I'd feel obligated to point it out.

Ugh, this thread.

BUT, to pile on ( )...

Here's what I think is the best style of play, which I especially use with new players or players who seem to be honestly absent minded:

Be proactive and explicit about as much as possible:

"Alright, I'm shooting at your Decimator with Rebel Captive, so that means that I take a stress." (take stress) "Okay, I've got three dice against your one green dice, because you've taken one damage and have Kenkirk."

Obviously, with more seasoned players that gets a little pedantic. Still, it signals that you're trying to be above-board with everything. I also trust that if you signal you're being above-board with everything, and not trying to pull any fast ones, then your opponent will follow suit. It also allows them to perhaps catch something when you're forgetting it, because you're not making it part of your narration.

Even better, is if you weave the game mechanics into a more dramatic narrative.

"Luke Skywalker takes aim at the massive Decimator. It pains him to do it,..." (taking stress) "because [insert name here], who was imprisoned by the evil Empire, had been a friend of his since Yavin IV. He is trusting in his ability to hit the sluggish patrol ship, but it's captain is an expert at its controls, especially when the Sabacc chips are down..."

Okay, so that may get on some people's nerves, but I think it'd be awesome.

An ability with the option to use or not is not considered a mandatory effect. Therefore it falls under the missed opportunity guide written in the tournament rules by ffg

Calling someone a dork, or a bad sport for simply playing within the rules written by ffg is actually in the bad sportsmanship category

I agree with the last statement, but one thing that I do feel the "Missed Opportunity" section has created is a loophole or muddied the waters for people to apply it where it shouldn't be applied in the case of cards with mandatory effects, even though it makes a lot of other things (and more of them) clear. They could probably add a line that simply states that as long as the missed mandatory rule could still be applied without affecting other aspects of the game state it should be applied.

the

An ability with the option to use or not is not considered a mandatory effect. Therefore it falls under the missed opportunity guide written in the tournament rules by ffg

Calling someone a dork, or a bad sport for simply playing within the rules written by ffg is actually in the bad sportsmanship category

I agree with the last statement, but one thing that I do feel the "Missed Opportunity" section has created is a loophole or muddied the waters for people to apply it where it shouldn't be applied in the case of cards with mandatory effects, even though it makes a lot of other things (and more of them) clear. They could probably add a line that simply states that as long as the missed mandatory rule could still be applied without affecting other aspects of the game state it should be applied.

People may try and use the missed opportunity clause with mandatory effect.

But mandatory effect are just that mandatory.

Sad to say you'd never know if they never said anything, and even if they did could just try and claimed it as a missed opportunity which I believe they believe it themselves, so therefore didn't actually know they were cheating.

I actually explained that to the guy on vassal when he told me after the game he didn't put stress on his ships from rebel captive because I didn't say anything.

Even though he did know I still feel I'm partly yo blame as I should have made sure.

Don't know what it is, but when I play vassal I forget all sorts of things I don't normally forget lol

Ffg should add a mandatory effect statement in the tournament rules. Then it will be more clearly defined

At least some of FFGs other games have mandatory effect clauses explicitly stating that all mandatory effects are the responsibility of both players.

With all of these people who so HATE the idea of reminding an opponent of something I sure hope you concede any game where someone points out an opportunity you're going to miss. I mean if you can't manage the thought of defeating the squad that someone brings then you should just fold if someone points out when you miss something you obviously shouldn't miss.

Considering the shortcuts that are sometime taken to help improve play it seems very reasonable that giving basic reminders shouldn't harm anyone. Maybe someone playing that FCS+ACD Whisper should just tape a TL, Focus, and Cloak token together with the red dice to put out whenever an attack is made that should produce all three. I guess all is fine when this is so automatic that it still happens even in some situation where it shouldn't.

Today i played with my brother on the kitchen table, and i nearly lost the game due to forgetting to reroll my defensive line wolf on Dash 3 times. I never asked to go back, even if it was just a kitchen game and he'd surely have permitted.

Nor he asked me any favour during the whole game.

Sportsmanship is not only be fair with your opponent, bur also not putting him in condition of being unfair.

With all of these people who so HATE the idea of reminding an opponent of something I sure hope you concede any game where someone points out an opportunity you're going to miss.

Way to not bother reading the thread. Oh and proving the point I made above...

Considering the shortcuts that are sometime taken to help improve play it seems very reasonable that giving basic reminders shouldn't harm anyone.

If someone takes shortcuts, which are often not allowed by the rules, I fail to see why they should be rewarded by having someone else point out what they forgot.

It's not like you're expected to remember most things really. You got the cards right there in front of you. If you can't bother to look at them, consider what those cards allow you to do, and act on them. Why should I bother helping you?

With all of these people who so HATE the idea of reminding an opponent of something I sure hope you concede any game where someone points out an opportunity you're going to miss. I mean if you can't manage the thought of defeating the squad that someone brings then you should just fold if someone points out when you miss something you obviously shouldn't miss.

Considering the shortcuts that are sometime taken to help improve play it seems very reasonable that giving basic reminders shouldn't harm anyone. Maybe someone playing that FCS+ACD Whisper should just tape a TL, Focus, and Cloak token together with the red dice to put out whenever an attack is made that should produce all three. I guess all is fine when this is so automatic that it still happens even in some situation where it shouldn't.

You apparently missed the point

I could care less if you want to be the friendly fellow who points out every time someone makes a mistake at age or remind them.

Go ahead.

Just don't always except it back in return.

And don't get all pouty if you later realized that you lost a game due to the fact and your opponent knew.

Why on earth would someone forfeit a game if they forgot an action

Isn't that being a little dramatic

If I forget something which happens to everyone, I'm ok with that, and I'll recoup and push forward. In some cases still win the game. If fine with that.

Just as VanorDM said

You have all your cards right in front of you. Take your time and be thorough.

It's not rocket science

Move take action etc etc

You attack, look down at your cards. Oh i have fire control systems, I'll target lock etc etc.

I don't hate anyone, and I don't hate if you want to feel helpful.

If I'm playing you and you did remind me of something, I'll likely decline it.

Just don't expect the same in a competitive event

If we're playing a friendly game, I'll remind you a few tines, but there is a point that enough is enough

A new player I'll go even farther and explain your options, what I would likely do and why if it was needed

Edit

What I don't like is if someone doesn't play by someone else's standards they call them being a bad sport

Back a few pages someone said a girl called him a name because she forgot to use Ysanne after a few ships have already fired.

She is actually being bad sport and would fall under that bad sportsmanship outlined in the tournament rules written by ffg

To flip this the other way- if I make a rules mistake, I want you to tell me; but if I screw something up and forget to take an optional effect that's on me. I don't expect you to remind me, and I definitely don't want a take-back. I own my mistakes. I think it's ok to do (remind someone) but I think good sportsmanship is actually for the other person to refuse the help.

Case in point, last regionals my first game was my maxed-out Whisper + miniswarm vs double falcons. At one point I rolled two hits against Chewie with my first attack; my opponent rolled one evade and declared he would spend his evade token to nullify the attack completely. I pointed out this would trigger gunner and asked him if he wanted to change his mind. He face-palmed and then said no; he'd declared it already and so kept the mistake and moved on.

2 or so games later in the same tournament I forgot to recloak with ACD after shooting. I noticed when setting the dials and my opponent in that game offered to let me place the cloak then, which I refused (and Whisper died horribly that turn).

From my point of view, regardless of whether it is good to offer help, in a tournament setting it is poor sportsmanship to accept offered help.

^^ good men in that story!