Right, here's what I'm going to do: until they release an ARC-170 expansion I'm not buying ANY more card sleeves. Take that FFG shareholders!

Legends isnt non-canon ether. Checkout what the writters for the last two SW books said about legends and canon.

I think I know what you're trying to say - and I think I agree with that - but - as I understand the terms - I don't agree with what you actually said.

Legends is a catch-all term for stuff that is outside of the sources of canon. It may become canon if Lucasfilm decides to pull it out of the closet. Once Lucasfilm does that, it's no longer Legends, and has become canon. So, in that sense, Canon and Legends is distinct from one another

I think there should be a third category - stuff that's been ditched by having canon override it.

Now, I realize that Wookieepedia is (necessarily) doing things a bit differently, by having what you see under Legends be canon plus other stuff. However, I don't think that's the spirit of what Legends is supposed to be. I'm glad that Wookieepedia is doing what it's doing, but I do think that what we see under the Legends tab in Wookieepedia is better referred to as 'Legends + Canon'.

But do I have it wrong?

I dont use wookieepedia anymore because the way they represent legends, which looks to me to be non-canon. They havent at all kept up with SW writters and what they have said about legends.

Besides the two SW book writters one of the Rebels tv writers said that legends was still canon. We missunderstood the legends announcement. He also said even if something is contradicted its only the fine detales of that story that are non-canon and not the story itself.

The way he described Legends that makes it 2ndary canon type A, canon till contradicted.

Then you got the interview with the SW writer that made Mara Jade. He said that if anything was going to contradict his works he will write new stuff to repair it.

Two last bits of important info, last I checked the Holocron keeper still hadnt decided if the past SW games would have Legends status. If the dont get Legends status they cant be canon.

Under the new marketing rules and LFL products only canon material can be produced. I know it takes FFG 18 months to setup SW material but if Disney didnt approve of the products FFG made they would have had it thrown out fast just like what they did with the Clone Wars show and the hasbro toy line having all EU collectables cut from production before the legends news was posted.

Everything after that post about "only canon products being made," thats made by FFG or Hasbro IVE counted as canon

[...]

Now I think your logic is being obtuse (sorry man). Yes, X-Wing leans heavily on Legends, but that doesn't mean that they're operating in a parallel Star Wars universe, in which new canon won't exist.

Remember that they plan their stuff 18 months ahead of time. I think its safe to presume that they want to stay on Disney's good side, but that they have a bunch of stuff grandfathered in. So, they're not going to 'choose' to do Legends over canon. They're just going to toe a line that works with what keeps the most people happy simultaneously. Because both Disney and the current target audience seem to both want to steer clear of the prequels (because JarJar), they will decide not to go there.

It's the tintermawebs, you're supposed to be obtuse! Anyway, as has been pointed out, there's nothing to stop old stuff being re-canonised, perhaps by FFG. All this about them being outdated cos they have old fashioned targeting computers and, apparently, non-gimbled guns, is clearly a non-issue. Twenty years have passed, they'd probably have had new parts fitted to replace those even if there hadn't been a big breakthrough.

[...]

The Legend of the T-65 X-Wing has it in service for around 40 years. F-15 is pushing 40 years.

The ARC-170 would be around 25 years old by BBY. Whatever upgrades applied to it probably kept the ship in pace with newer/later models from the same era.

---

As to "become part of the miniatures" thoughts; What role is there for it to take on?

Within the Empire it's roles were absorbed by the TIE/Sa (Heavy Ordnance Carrier), TIE/D (Cannon Platform), and TIE/x1 (Multi-role).

Rebel Alliance: Y-Wing/B-Wing (Heavy Ordnance), B-Wing/YT-2400 (Cannon Platform), X-Wing/E-Wing (Multi-role).

Scum & Villany: Y-Wing (Heavy Ordnance), Aggressor (Cannon Platform), M3-A (Multi-Role).

I really like the Ship but I've got a really difficult time imagining where the ship fits in without encroaching on previously marked territory.

One remark about the proposed ARC 170: up to now, FFG has carefully avoided any possibility of combining an astromech and a crew upgrade on any ship. I think this is the main reason there is no card adding crew to the Y-Wing: the combination is not allowed. So I don't think the ARC should have it either.

I'm a very vocal supporter of adding prequel/clone wars era ships to the game. I much rather FFG add some more canon ships than scraping the barrel for obscure EU ships, or even creating their own ships.

I feel Scum has really opened the door for this, as all their ships with the exception of the star viper and aggressor are very old, many of them clone wars era themselves. So to add more clone wars era ships would certainly fit their style.

Scum doesn't have a single truly Clone Wars era ship. The Z-95, Y-wing and Firespray are the only two ostensibly older ships and they're models much newer than the Clone Wars. Likewise, wide scale Firespray production was started under the Empire and they no doubt upgraded the tech on them.

FFG has carefully avoided any possibility of combining an astromech and a crew upgrade on any ship

They have? The only candidate was the Y-wing, and they chose to give it BTL-A4 instead of a crew slot.

As to "become part of the miniatures" thoughts; What role is there for it to take on?

Within the Empire it's roles were absorbed by the TIE/Sa (Heavy Ordnance Carrier), TIE/D (Cannon Platform), and TIE/x1 (Multi-role).

Rebel Alliance: Y-Wing/B-Wing (Heavy Ordnance), B-Wing/YT-2400 (Cannon Platform), X-Wing/E-Wing (Multi-role).

Scum & Villany: Y-Wing (Heavy Ordnance), Aggressor (Cannon Platform), M3-A (Multi-Role).

I really like the Ship but I've got a really difficult time imagining where the ship fits in without encroaching on previously marked territory.

I picture it something like a Firespray, but on a small base.

One remark about the proposed ARC 170: up to now, FFG has carefully avoided any possibility of combining an astromech and a crew upgrade on any ship. I think this is the main reason there is no card adding crew to the Y-Wing: the combination is not allowed. So I don't think the ARC should have it either.

I'm not sure the ARC-170 would have a crew slot. One pilot, somebody manning the front guns and somebody manning the read guns. That said, I'm not convinced crew+astromech is broken anyway - remind me what the issue was there? It was about greens wasn't it - Nein Num + R2 was it?

Scum doesn't have a single truly Clone Wars era ship. The Z-95, Y-wing and Firespray are the only two ostensibly older ships and they're models much newer than the Clone Wars. Likewise, wide scale Firespray production was started under the Empire and they no doubt upgraded the tech on them.

The Y-Wing was used during the Clone Wars. It's around the same age as the ARC-170, give or take two or three years. If the Y-Wing can be upgraded and kept in service, so can the ARC.

Point the first: In SW Galaxies the ARC170 was a tier4 ship, just like the actis JSF , A-wing, TIE Advanced etc.

You had to do a special quest line to get the ARC. That's why it's listed as an elite ship and that is all. - point against the ARC inclusion.

Point the second: it's space. You can keep the hull and just replace the gubbins with up to date stuff. That's why the Mil. Falcon is so **** good. Pre clone wars ship, current era gubbins. Point towards the inclusion of any pre GCW ship including both the Aurek(less likely due to amount of time, but hull reproduction is a thing) and the ARC.

Point the third: Sources show the empire do have clone wars tech still in use. Victory and Venator class Star Frigates and Star destroyers, Acclamators. Point towards inclusion of ARC.

Point the forth: Both sides still used LAAT / MAAT gunships from the clone wars well into the GCW (source being battlefront 2 among other things). Point towards ARC.

Point the fifth: Less technologically minded factions readily used older tech ships for use in piracy or other functions, even Y-wings are older class ships roughly the same age as the ARC. Point towards ARC inclusion in Scum or Rebel.

Point the sixth: The Z-95 and Y-wing are from the same era as the ARC, the Z-95 being another ship from more or less the same train of thought as the ARC/ X-wing. Both the Z and Arc are the forerunners to the X-wing. Point towards the ARC.

Final point: FFG do not currently own the license for prequel content. Game set and match we are not seeing the ARC until they do.

Final point: FFG do not currently own the license for prequel content. Game set and match we are not seeing the ARC until they do.

Completely wrong. FFG's license is all inclusive. Peterson has even said so. They just choose to not make prequel content, though plenty of PT imagery is being used. I mean, what ships do you see in the Predator art? I mean, it is fairly obvious who the major market the X-wing game is, and a significant number of that market hates the prequels. Just good business. That, and they have a real love of the EU.

Still, I don't foresee the PT ships in X-wing. In a completely compatable, but seperate, Jedi Starfighter game, sure.

Then why is everyone saying they don't.

In the predator art I am seeing a CR40 Lulsa, a Lorenar Strike Cruiser, Tie Fighters, Star destroyers and a Y-wing.

There is a ship which could be an ARC. don't think it is.

Final point: FFG do not currently own the license for prequel content. Game set and match we are not seeing the ARC until they do.

Completely wrong. FFG's license is all inclusive. Peterson has even said so. They just choose to not make prequel content, though plenty of PT imagery is being used. I mean, what ships do you see in the Predator art? I mean, it is fairly obvious who the major market the X-wing game is, and a significant number of that market hates the prequels. Just good business. That, and they have a real love of the EU.

Still, I don't foresee the PT ships in X-wing. In a completely compatable, but seperate, Jedi Starfighter game, sure.

I feel hate is too soft a term.

You know what? I used to really really hate the prequels, but I've kinda gotten over it. A lot of cool things have come from the prequels.

Clone wars series (no, it was good) Republic Commando, some of the amazing ship designs. Sure, we can all hate on Jar Jar Binks, or the derpyness of the Jedi through the trilogy. Or the really REALLY poor writing regarding anakins fall.

But plot holes etc are forgivable, because the OT had them all too.

Gungans and Ewoks man.

First off, while I grew up with the OT, and AM against the prequels as MOVIES, I was NEVER, EVVVERRRR against the ships used in the prequels, with the exception of the Episode III Jedi Starfighter, and that was mainly due to the size of the craft VS engine space, thruster size, damage output, and lifesupport capibilities. I mean SERIOUSLY how the hell did that ship even take off on repulsers. The LANDSPEEDER was larger and it was just the CAR if the starwars universe, but i digress. Most the ships were great designs, I even can say the "alternate" designs of each ship in Galactic Battlegrounds Saga made the lore behind some of those ships stand out even MORE as they evolved in the technology. The Naboo ships were a extreamly UNIQUE look and feel that wasnt seen in starwars, very expensive looking and I felt it gave a different take on what was possible in the starwars universe.

I say screw the timeline limites and explore ALL options (Also some of the Galactic Civil War Comics (I think they were Dark Horse Comics) had ISD with V-Wings on board. I gotta go through my library, but ill upload a screenshot or two of the scenes when I find them again.

That one's set only a few years after RotS.

Final point: FFG do not currently own the license for prequel content. Game set and match we are not seeing the ARC until they do.

Completely wrong. FFG's license is all inclusive. Peterson has even said so. They just choose to not make prequel content, though plenty of PT imagery is being used. I mean, what ships do you see in the Predator art? I mean, it is fairly obvious who the major market the X-wing game is, and a significant number of that market hates the prequels. Just good business. That, and they have a real love of the EU.

Still, I don't foresee the PT ships in X-wing. In a completely compatable, but seperate, Jedi Starfighter game, sure.

Prequels are way too polarizing. To go out of their way to get them into this game seems like a bad idea to me. The much safer bet is to continue with their current model; largely ignoring the prequels, with minor inclusions like Kagi and some card art. Nobody got angry over some prequel ships on card art, but I could see a very real backlash over prequel ships being shoehorned into the game. I'd be a little annoyed, personally, but I don't think I'd go around collecting ARC-170s and burning them.

Plenty of people hate the prequels. They don't want to be reminded of them. Nobody is going to object to a cloakshape fighter, the Hound's tooth, or the Punishing One. It's easy to see the correct business move, from my perspective. But I commiserate with prequel fans; its natural to want to see your favorite ships in your favorite game.

ARC170s are sexy as hell though, as are V-wings and Torrents.

Point the third: Sources show the empire do have clone wars tech still in use. Victory and Venator class Star Frigates and Star destroyers, Acclamators. Point towards inclusion of ARC.

That's because the Empire didn't chuck all of their arms one the Clone Wars ended in order to make new ones in Evil Style. The Empire did use their Clone Wars gear for a long time. However, by the Battle of Yavin it's gone. It's 19 years out of date. Even the TIE fighter that replaced the Clone Wars fighters is now looking to be replaced by newer models.

Prequels are way too polarizing. To go out of their way to get them into this game seems like a bad idea to me.

I don't think they'd shy away from making prequel vessels if they were appropriate, it's just that they aren't. They're not going to shoehorn them in the way they were shoehorned into Galaxies.

True, the TIE LN was set to be replaced by the superior interceptor. HOWEVER:

It's a galaxy spanning empire with galaxy spanning bureaucracy, and frankly reserves have to have mothballed stuff.

Old ship hulls can and are refitted with newer gubbins. Scum would do this.

Lastly. Rule of cool. If I could make a spitfire fly as good as an F-22. I'd do it.

In space, without avionics to worry about so much. Hells yeah.

Final point: FFG do not currently own the license for prequel content. Game set and match we are not seeing the ARC until they do.

I like your analysis up to that point, but what's your source for that? We have prequel stuff in the RPGs (Nexu comes to mind, I think there are some Naboo ships in there too, might even be the ARC-170 in one of them - didn't someone mention one in Stay on Target in an earlier post?).

Final point: FFG do not currently own the license for prequel content. Game set and match we are not seeing the ARC until they do.

I like your analysis up to that point, but what's your source for that? We have prequel stuff in the RPGs (Nexu comes to mind, I think there are some Naboo ships in there too, might even be the ARC-170 in one of them - didn't someone mention one in Stay on Target in an earlier post?).

Honestly that point is my weakest source - the rest I know from playing galaxies, reading etc.

That one was reading this forum and hearing it regurgitated often, so if wrong - my fault for not thoroughly fact checking.

Final point: FFG do not currently own the license for prequel content. Game set and match we are not seeing the ARC until they do.

That is just blatantly untrue. We have been explicitly told by Christian Peterson, the CEO and founder of FFG, in an interview last year, that the FFG license covers all things Star Wars, all eras, all source material, everything. He just said that x-wing is civil war era and beyond and that they simply have no interest in doing prequel era stuff for it.

I can see why some have issues with the prequels, but the severity of the vitriol against them strikes me more as internet hype rather than substance. It would be a shame if that hype was what is keeping ships from ep. I-III from entering the game. But I'm sure there's a reasoned business decision behind it. From my point of view, however, the high quality designs from the prequels are being ignored in favour of designs from EU/'Legends' sources that are of a much lower standard. And that is a shame.

Final point: FFG do not currently own the license for prequel content. Game set and match we are not seeing the ARC until they do.

I like your analysis up to that point, but what's your source for that? We have prequel stuff in the RPGs (Nexu comes to mind, I think there are some Naboo ships in there too, might even be the ARC-170 in one of them - didn't someone mention one in Stay on Target in an earlier post?).

Honestly that point is my weakest source - the rest I know from playing galaxies, reading etc.

That one was reading this forum and hearing it regurgitated often, so if wrong - my fault for not thoroughly fact checking.

"Regurgitated" is right. I'm really tired of seeing this make-believe fact barfed up over and over again. No offense to you (and +1 for your concession), but the dimwits that started this lie in the first place should be slapped with a trout.

If above dimwits are lurking:

STFU.

You don't know anything about FFG's licensing agreement.

I can see why some have issues with the prequels, but the severity of the vitriol against them strikes me more as internet hype rather than substance. It would be a shame if that hype was what is keeping ships from ep. I-III from entering the game. But I'm sure there's a reasoned business decision behind it. From my point of view, however, the high quality designs from the prequels are being ignored in favour of designs from EU/'Legends' sources that are of a much lower standard. And that is a shame.

I totally agree with you about the internet fashionability of savaging the prequels. Sometimes it seems like whoever comes up with the most extreme attack on the PT expects to win a prize of some sort.

However, I don't mind so much them keeping the PT ships out of x-wing. IMO the ship designs were one of the worst things about the movies, exemplified by the hideously ugly topic of this thread. (Although, I do grant you that the EU does contain far worse ships. We are nowhere near scraping the bottom of that barrel yet).

I can see why some have issues with the prequels, but the severity of the vitriol against them strikes me more as internet hype rather than substance. It would be a shame if that hype was what is keeping ships from ep. I-III from entering the game. But I'm sure there's a reasoned business decision behind it. From my point of view, however, the high quality designs from the prequels are being ignored in favour of designs from EU/'Legends' sources that are of a much lower standard. And that is a shame.

By which you mean what, the TIE Defender, Phantom? the YT2400? HWK?

YT2400 was a big deal due to SOTE and as a lesser extent X-wing alliance, the Defender is HUGE due to TIE Fighter, and has had toy kits and lego sets despite not appearing in a single movie. You gotta respect that.

Phantom... Eh. I kinda see your point . I like the look of them, but Rebel Assault is nothing to be proud of. They did also appear in Empire at War forces of corruption. Phantoms pretty weak.

The HWK... Dark forces and Jedi knight, novels etc too. Rather like the look of the design myself, feel it has it's niche.

There (assault gunboat) are (assault gunboat) still (assault gunboat) ships (assault gunboat) from (assault gunboat) legends (assault gunboat) --- you get the idea, ships from TIE Fighter and X-wing still need to be added before prequels.

The ARC is sexy though and I love it. I do want to see a DX9 (my shapeways one arrived yesterday) the Assault gunboat (really, who would have figured) and the Escort shuttle (shapeways again, will be played as a firespray).

Maybe have the ARC as a Rebel ship and the Assault gunboat as Imperial in a wave? Man I'd love that It'd be an FFG shut up and take my money moment. (One of many).

I'm still holding out for a separate-but-compatible game, I think that's the best option for everyone.

With that solution, prequel haters can get lost (separate game), but those interested have the option of using the same templates/tokens (compatible) and even having informal, house-rules, mixed-era games. Like Epic, there wouldn't need to be a concern about the normal X-Wing 100 pt tournament games getting "polluted", but there would still be the option for separate Republic-era games.

I'm still holding out for a separate-but-compatible game, I think that's the best option for everyone.

With that solution, prequel haters can get lost (separate game), but those interested have the option of using the same templates/tokens (compatible) and even having informal, house-rules, mixed-era games. Like Epic, there wouldn't need to be a concern about the normal X-Wing 100 pt tournament games getting "polluted", but there would still be the option for separate Republic-era games.

Basically like the Horus Heresy is to regular 40K then?