's more complicated, what's the advantage?

Advantage? Primary or Auxiliary arc R3 ICT shot? Or Blaster Turret?

R2 Autoblaster? Sure it's only 2At but having it and both arcs?

The thing about player designed units is that while they may be more interesting, they are nearly always more complicated and use more special rules than they should.

Just give it 3AD, an auxiliary arc and call it a day

The thing about player designed units is that while they may be more interesting, they are nearly always more complicated and use more special rules than they should.

Just give it 3AD, an auxiliary arc and call it a day

3AD and an auxiliary arc would price the ship around the same cost a a TIE Defender (30) or E-Wing (27).

Sure it is simpler but at that high a cost of upgrade options (Torpedo, Crew, Astromech) and Auxiliary Arc (almost a White-K) an ARC-170's cost at 3At would be similar if not more depending on the rest of the dial.

The thing about player designed units is that while they may be more interesting, they are nearly always more complicated and use more special rules than they should.

Just give it 3AD, an auxiliary arc and call it a day

3AD and an auxiliary arc would price the ship around the same cost a a TIE Defender (30) or E-Wing (27).

Sure it is simpler but at that high a cost of upgrade options (Torpedo, Crew, Astromech) and Auxiliary Arc (almost a White-K) an ARC-170's cost at 3At would be similar if not more depending on the rest of the dial.

The dial would be nowhere near as good as a defender or an E wing, but being a semi-large ship I don't see anything wrong with it costing a fair bit. They were big ships with a very high running and maintenance cost, not a cheap spam ship. If you're really worried about the upgrades just cut the crew option. Even with it the ship would be no more offensive to game balance than the B-Wing/E or the Phantom.

I really don't like the idea of the ARC 170 having 2AD, its just not right stylistically. Its got very powerful guns.

Its got very powerful guns.

For its time, sure.

Its got very powerful guns.

For its time, sure.

Star wars tech doesn't move that fast. Slave 1 was flying around during the clone wars yet I don't see anyone calling for it to have 2AD (its even got only two cannons)

Its got very powerful guns.

For its time, sure.

Star wars tech doesn't move that fast. Slave 1 was flying around during the clone wars yet I don't see anyone calling for it to have 2AD (its even got only two cannons)

Slave I has /vastly/ superior cannons on it simply because Jango and later Boba put a helluva lot of credits into it. The ARC does not. It's got 2 medium lasers in each arc, essentially, and neither of them are above "generic". The extra arc is enough of a firepower boost.

sorry about you're illusionary shipfu

Its got very powerful guns.

For its time, sure.

Star wars tech doesn't move that fast. Slave 1 was flying around during the clone wars yet I don't see anyone calling for it to have 2AD (its even got only two cannons)

Slave I has /vastly/ superior cannons on it simply because Jango and later Boba put a helluva lot of credits into it. The ARC does not. It's got 2 medium lasers in each arc, essentially, and neither of them are above "generic". The extra arc is enough of a firepower boost.

sorry about you're illusionary shipfu

So maybe Jango did spend a lot of credits to upgrade his guns, but are you saying that so did Kath Scarlet in her firespray, and Eamon whatshisname, and every random bounty hunter and mando merc who is flying a firespray? Because in game every single one of them has 3AD base, thats without the player applying upgrades (to represent the modifications that the owner or the owner's employer has made to the ship)

The ARC-170's Tail gun is nowhere near as massive as it's forward facing Cannons. To give it 3At base means jacking up it's cost because that 3At is also firing outside the rear Arc.

People say 2At because they want the ship to have a rear arc. Downsizing the Forward Guns also makes it cheaper to allow the purchase of Cannons (which are restricted to Primary Arc) and other upgrades to allow the ship to be modified depending on the role it is taking within the list.

Sorry, this isn't going to go anywhere and I have better ways to spend time.

First off, I like the aesthetic of the ARC 170, it's a blunt battering ram looking ship with a WWII hint to it. As for getting it into X-wing, that's a different case.

Based on the information in the starwars.com databank the ARC 170 has two forward facing laser cannons and a single rear facing cannon. Wookiepedia says two rear facing, but I don't entirely trust them as a source of information (it's a useful general resource though).

There is a loose correlation between number of guns on a ship and its attack die. Tie Fighter has two guns, gets two attacks, X-wing has four guns, gets three attack, Tie Phantom has five guns (Wookiepedia again) gets four attack.

As for crew, the Y-wing has a pilot and gunner, gets no crew, the Phantom has a pilot and gunner, gets crew upgrade. The B-wing extended has a gunnery station or maybe it's a passenger seat in a snub fighter because narrative, either way it gets crew upgrade.

I'd bet the rules for translating a ship to the game mechanics get bent whenever they need to make the ship balance better or fit a more specific role.

I'm comparing the ARC to an X-wing for the guns. Given that the X-wing is a more modern fighter I would expect its guns to be as good as the ARCs if not better and overall its firepower to be better than the ARC 170. Based on that two attack for the ARC seems reasonable.

The astromech upgrade is a given, the crew upgrade is a big maybe, possibly as a point of difference from other ships.

Then there is the rear fire arc, you could go with two attack and argue that the rear cannon just fires really fast, that'd be the easiest option rules wise.

Or you could say the rear arc is only a single attack, but that's kind of weak, would require special rules too. It's not hard to do though, a split attack value 2/1 and rules included with the ship indicating the first value is forward arc and second value is rear arc.

Or you could go with the rear arc is actually a cannon upgrade, which is the idea I like the most because it makes the ship more interesting. But that comes with even more special rules. You will have to have the rear arc printed on the pilot card so it can be used for checking arc. You will have to have rules indicating the rear arc CANNOT be used unless a cannon upgrade is included. You will have to have that somehow indicated on the ship card itself, yes it is a rear arc but it's not a primary weapon arc. You will have to have rules to indicate that a cannon upgrade fitted to the ship can only fire from the rear arc. While FFG aren't above adding in rules with a ship, that's a lot of rules that need to be added in and somehow clearly indicated on the playing field.

One other thing that occurs to me is that the ship has to be, well, shittier than an X-wing. While I don't believe that the in universe age of the ship has any real bearing on whether or not it would be fielded in X-wing (hey, if you can have Corran Horn and Biggs Darklighter shoot down Darth Vader), it does impact on the capability of the ship.

The peers to the ARC are the z95 headhunter, the Y-wing and the ETA-2 Actis, where the X-wing is the next step in fighters followed by the A-wing, B-wing and E-wing collectively. The ARC is described as a rugged ship unlike the other more nimble ships of the time, basically it comes across as a Y-wing with a rear fire arc instead of a turret and maybe a crew upgrade.

I've already posted about the width of the ARC and how you'd handle that with the base, it's a problem as when you (inevitably) bump, that wingspan is going to more of a headache than other ships on the small base, it'll get in the way more often. You'll either have to re-peg the ship above or below the other ship you bump or go with a wider base. A wider base changes the way the ship handles some maneuvers but hey, that could again make the different to fly.

Closing thoughts about the ARC are pitch it in the same calibre as the Y-wing, figure out what the hell to do with the rear fire arc and maybe give it a crew upgrade to make it a bit different from a Y.

Final, final thoughts on this. If we get an ARC we must have an ETA-2 Interceptor with Anakin piloting it, so we can shoot Anakin down with Darth Vader, create a paradox and destroy the universe.

Or you could go with the rear arc is actually a cannon upgrade, which is the idea I like the most because it makes the ship more interesting. But that comes with even more special rules. You will have to have the rear arc printed on the pilot card so it can be used for checking arc. You will have to have rules indicating the rear arc CANNOT be used unless a cannon upgrade is included. You will have to have that somehow indicated on the ship card itself, yes it is a rear arc but it's not a primary weapon arc. You will have to have rules to indicate that a cannon upgrade fitted to the ship can only fire from the rear arc. While FFG aren't above adding in rules with a ship, that's a lot of rules that need to be added in and somehow clearly indicated on the playing field.

You dont need that if you use the Title above. The ship would be a normal ship with 2 attack dice and just a normal arc. Then you get this title, which is pretty much an autoinclude, and you can shoot backwards with the cannon.

Thats what FFG does with Titles, they are autoinclude upgrades that give the ship a weird rule that they clouldnt describe anywhere else.

Nothing complicated about the arcs - it's just the same as a Firespray but with the arcs swapped around (ie the solid lines at the back, the dashed lines at the front), we already have the rules for that.

And thematically it's clearly closer in attack power to an X-Wing than a Y-Wing, 2 attack would feel totally wrong. Logically too - it's got the mounts for big guns, you'd equip it with the best you can for the amount you're willing to spend, no reason it wouldn't have modern weapons just like an X-Wing.

If you do the same as the Firespray but with the arcs swapped, then you will still have primary attacks on the rear.

And if you give the ship attack 3 then there is less reason to spend the squad points in a rear attack cannon.

Im not talkning about what the ship is in the EU, im talking about interesting game mechanics.

Oh yeah, I forgot the primary weapon would then be able to shoot backwards! You're right, some new arc style on the base would be required, for Secondary Only.

I still say it needs three attack primary though; to be the same as a Y-Wing or Z95 would be so wrong.

X-wing has two base sizes. If the Lambda doesn't the ARC really doesn't need a special base.

There is a loose correlation between number of guns on a ship and its attack die. Tie Fighter has two guns, gets two attacks, X-wing has four guns, gets three attack, Tie Phantom has five guns (Wookiepedia again) gets four attack.

Falcon has eight, three attack, Lambda has eight, three attack, TIE interceptor has up to six, three attack, the Crow, depending on source, has between two and eight, one attack, the Firespray has two, two attack, Outrider has four guns each individually big enough to contain each gun on the phantom, two attack.

While its roughly there it's very loose and doesn't work as a rule. Ship attack values aren't just number of guns, they also factor in the firepower and maneuverability of the ship. The Lambda's covered in guns but flies like a brick, whereas the phantom's not only got the bite of an interceptor in terms of guns but it also appears out of nowhere.

Im guessing the idea at first was to make the attack dice depending on the amount of guns, but later became a more flexible rule to fit game mechanics.

Basically the rule now is "expensive ships have attack 3 (or something to compensate, like the Outrider title) and cheap ships have attack 2". Its the reason the TIE Advanced and the A-Wing got abandoned, too expensive for just 2 attack dice. Its also the reason the StarViper or the Agressor have attack 3.

From all the stats a ship has, the number of attack dice is the most related to game mechanics.

Its got very powerful guns.

For its time, sure.

Star wars tech doesn't move that fast. Slave 1 was flying around during the clone wars yet I don't see anyone calling for it to have 2AD (its even got only two cannons)

Nope it's got four guns two on either side so 3 attack is just right.

Falcon has eight, three attack, Lambda has eight, three attack, TIE interceptor has up to six, three attack, the Crow, depending on source, has between two and eight, one attack, the Firespray has two, two attack, Outrider has four guns each individually big enough to contain each gun on the phantom, two attack.

Firesprays have three attack! Bloody TIE Pilots, coming over here, slandering our ships...

I always felt that the Y-wing, TIE Fighter and TIE Advanced should have 3 attack just to reflect the increased accuracy the positioning of those guns affords. But that is digressing.

The ARC's guns are huge, they should do huge damages. I grant that the wing width would be enough to decrease accuracy enough to remove a dice.

May have to order an ARC or two from mel's along with my next stormtrooper transport... The only reason i've not ordered XG-1s is that I am 100% certain FFG will release them.

Huge but not powerful so they should get 2 attack.

Huge but not powerful so they should get 2 attack.

Why wouldn't they be powerful? You really think it should have the same attack power as a Y-Wing or TIE Fighters tiny wee blaster pistols?

May have to order an ARC or two from mel's along with my next stormtrooper transport... The only reason i've not ordered XG-1s is that I am 100% certain FFG will release them.

I agree.

Multiple people have informed you they are only medium lasers not heavies, and the tie fighters are better because they have a superior rotation in their mounts allowing a greater field of fire.

It's a scout ship it says so in the name and you don't heavily arm scouts, you give them strong sensors and a hyperdrive with a good range.

Multiple people have informed you they are only medium lasers not heavies, and the tie fighters are better because they have a superior rotation in their mounts allowing a greater field of fire.

It's a scout ship it says so in the name and you don't heavily arm scouts, you give them strong sensors and a hyperdrive with a good range.

It's not a scout ships. It's an Aggressive Reconnaissance Starfighter. Note the Aggressive part of that. So you would totally expect it to have powerful guns. I note that the guns on X-wing are listed as merely laser cannons but the ARC-170 has medium laser cannons, I mean they may not be HLC, but I think 3 attack is not unjustified.