Hi everyone! (again)

What a week! After a marathon session of 12 hours, I got many doubts, this is my third post of the week!

Today post is to ask for advice, counsel, help on some skills.

1) I have difficulties to understand the difference between Cool and Discipline. So far me and my group have only used Cool for initiative checks. Whenever I try to give it another use, I don't see clear how Cool is different from Discipline.

2) Vigilance. Similar to the above. We use it only to determine initiative. When I try to give it another use, it feels too close to Perception.

Any insights you can give me here?

Thanks

My advice is to stop worrying about it.

I let my players either use cool or vigilance interchangeably for initiative, and its been working fine. (don't remember there been any other uses for them)

Rolling discipline into cool and Vigilance into perception shouldn't hurt the game.

Cool can be used as a counter against manipulation. You could have them make Cool checks to see through the flattery being laid down by a Toydarian merchant, or to pick up when the cantina patron who is flirting with them is actually trying to get them to give up information.

Alternately, Cool could be used to allow them to react well in a social situation. If they know a bounty hunter is after them, they could have to make Cool checks when they notice her in a crowded bar. If they succeed, they've got a few moments to come up with a plan or try to escape; if not, they flinch and draw her attention.

The situation with the bounty hunter would be another situation good for Vigilance. I would have them make a check to notice her. The way we use it, Vigilance is a passive form of paying attention to your surroundings. If you are actively looking for something or someone, use Perception. Since they would be carousing, or meeting with a contact, they likely would not be on the look out for other danger.

While I haven't done it yet, if I ever had a mind I'd roll these skills together:

Athletics/Coordination (use Brawn or Agility as appropriate)

Astrogation/Computer

Streetwise/ Knowledge: Underworld (use Intellect or Cunning as appropriate)

Cool/Discipline (use Presence or Willpower as appropriate)

Perception/Vigilance (use Cunning or Willpower as appropriate)

That would bring the list of skills down from 32 to 27. Too many of them feel redundant to me.

Another use for discipline is to hold fear at arms length and keep acting normal rather than running away or giving into coercion. Also it would help you block out distractions. For instance you're in a blaster fight and using vigilance (passive perception) you notice they have reinforcements coming in. Discipline will allow you to focus on the target in front of you rather than taking setback dice worrying about more blasters pointed at you.

Just a couple off the top of my head. Hope it helps.

Discipline is internal willpower, resisting outside influences like fear and lies. Cool is more the ability to keep calm in the face of pressure. Think of Cool as telling yourself to take a deep breath and keep your hands steady, or not show emotion on your face when you get dealt a great (or terrible) hand of cards.

As for Vigilance, it's good for when players don't specifically state that they're keeping an eye out for something but you still want to give them a chance to notice something's off. It might provide less specific information than Perception, but instead it gives you a little warning BEFORE something happens rather than alert you to the fact that something's already happening.

The most illustrative use of Cool I've seen was in the Rebellion Day module.

One route for the PCs to escape detection is to use Cool to move through a crowded hotel lobby, acting as though they belong there and blending in perfectly.

In Escape From Mos Schuuta, one of the first possible uses of Cool is to blend in at the bar in the cantina so it looks like you belong there.

It can represent a kind of social awareness and ability to improvise. James Bond would probably have a high Cool. Peter Venkman might even have a high Cool.

Someone with a high Cool is unflappable, responds easily to unusual situations. You're right that often Discipline and Cool can be two sides of the same coin.

If you're a Rebel spy and an Imperial Moff suddenly invites you to his table for a drink in a fancy club, you might make a Cool check to act very calm and detached, like you belong there and fit in perfectly with the high-falutin' conversation. A Discipline check might just mean you manage to avoid freaking out and embarrassing yourself.

As for Vigilance, it's good for when players don't specifically state that they're keeping an eye out for something but you still want to give them a chance to notice something's off. It might provide less specific information than Perception, but instead it gives you a little warning BEFORE something happens rather than alert you to the fact that something's already happening.

Vigilance also works better than Perception for retroactive checks to notice things, like "Were there any witnesses to that shootout we just ran from?"

I think of it this way.

Cool is your calm rating.

* When you start a battle with this, you expected it and you calmly focus down your enemy.

* Additionally Cool can recover Strain outside of combat. Like taking deep breaths to calm down and being back to normal.

Vigilance is totally different. It is you "Spidey Sense" your paranoia. Your idea something will go wrong and you just have to be ready for it.

* When used when you are surprised it is to attempt to counteract the surprise and remain "vigilant".

* Remembering a detail like HappyDaze pointed out is also vigilance in that it is that sense of paranoia that keeps you looking back.

Discipline is also different. Discipline is what separates a military person from a civilian. The willingness to take orders before thinking. Basically kind of a "trained calm".

* Like Cool it can be used to recover strain, but this would be like finding your inner Zen or meditating rather than a few deep breaths. It is going back to training and knowing there is the bigger picture.

That is the Player or character initiating the checks, but then there are opposed checks.

Cool Opposes Charm - The ability to keep cool when a pretty girl walks by. =)

Cool Opposes Negotiation - The ability for a statesman to keep cool when the other side is getting angry.

Discipline Opposes Coercion - Resisting torture by sticking to your training

Discipline Opposes Deception - Not being fooled due to techniques you learned in the past.

Discipline Opposes Leadership - Your ability to accept orders.

They seem interchangeable but there are really widely different skills.

I'll add on to use of Vigilance.

I threw this out there for my players when setting up an Ambush. I had them use Vigilance as one of the skills needed when scouting out various ambush points. Perception can tell you what you can sense, but Vigilance is that nagging feeling of the unknown. The "what if" factor that you contend with in a situation. So it was for them to attempt to guess what their target might feel when they arrive at the point. Would they possibly be comfortable, uneasy, or even straight paranoid. As a GM it was a way for me to determine how hard I would make the checks for the ambush.

Discipline/Cool has been pretty well covered so...

2) Vigilance. Similar to the above. We use it only to determine initiative. When I try to give it another use, it feels too close to Perception.

The difference is that Perception is the ability to see and notice, Vigilance is the ability to notice and react.

So the player would actively make a perception to look for traps in the sith temple hallway.

The GM would call for vigilance when the player activates a tripwire and wants to allow the player to have something to roll to get out of the way before the giant boulder rolls down and crushes him.

Remember this system also compresses checks together to get better results from less rolling. Like the pilot of a starfighter rolling just gunnery, but is assumed to still be flying his starfighter as well and so he doesn't need to roll a piloting check every turn.

In the same way the vigilance check can cover noticing the tripped tripwire and moving out of the way in a single roll.

Other systems would want 2 checks like you seem to be expecting, a perception to notice the tripwire, and a coordination to move out of the way. But why roll twice when one roll will do.

That's something I'm noticing more as I play; the 2.5 axis result system seems to work smoother if you keep rolls to a minimum, simply because those extra axis already cover the results of multiple rolls.

So continuing the boulder example...

1 Axis - Roll perception... you succeed and notice the tripwire. Roll Coordination... you fail, as you try to dive out of the way the boulder clips your head, you take 2 strain damage.

2.5 Axis - Roll Vigilance... you succeed, but with two threat. You notice the trip wire and boulder, but as you dive out of the way the boulder clips your head. Take 2 strain.

See? Same result, less rolling.

My understanding is as follows:

Cool - initiative checks where the character is aware it might lead to this or this was pre-mediated (according to plan)

Vigilance - initiative checks where the character is surprised, ambushed, or did not in some way expect this

At our table, our understanding of Vigilance vs. Perception is not just in regards to if you're expecting what you're looking for, but if your expecting it now. The difference was well explained by the security guard as our table, there is a very different skill set between knowing something might be up, and analyzing the area for it, and being on the sixth hour of your rounds and noticing that something is out of place, or catching the one guy your not supposed to let in after the hundred regular people that have streamed by. Perception, therefore, is actively looked used for short term surveillance, while vigilance is used to see how 'awake' you are after a all-night long stake out or if you notice that ambush.

Cool & Discipline, I agree, is a little more difficult. I believe one version I heard was Discipline is for Soldiers, Cool is for Officers. Cool is all about appearances and projection. A person who succeeds a cool check against fear is not showing how terrified they are, and is projecting confidence they don't feel. Succeeding with discipline is forcing your brain to act intelligently despite fear.

Some cool ideas here, thanks for the many good examples to differentiate Cool and Discipline.

I still feel Vigilance difficult to use, but I am buying the "notice and react" idea of Ghostofman.

Others have said to use vigilance like "Vigilance, it's good for when players don't specifically state that they're keeping an eye out for something but you still want to give them a chance to notice something's off." I think a NPC trying to stealth over PCs without them knowing it falls in this category, and typically the book suggests to resolve this situation with Perception (PCs) vs Stealth (NPC). So I am not that convinced with this suggestion for Vigilance.

Yeah, I know. The books are inconsistent with their Vigilance vs. Perception.

Yeah, I know. The books are inconsistent with their Vigilance vs. Perception.

Actually, you are right. I typically don't take the rules in rpgs manuals too strictly, I don't know why I would do different with this one... Perception = Active, Vigilance = Passive sounds good!

Keep in mind Vigilance should provide less information. Also, don't forget you can use both to draw out a scene. (though I'd only do it if dramatically appropriate, such as a horror episode, or if they're doing security work)

"The clock turns over as the night wares on. Roll Vigilance"

- success

"Something is out there - you saw movement by the speeder to your left."

- I go investigate, calling out.

"Your voice echos around the construction yard as you approach the speeder, roll perception"

- success, with advantage

"A shadowy figure, humanoid in appearance, darts from the speeder and into the house..."

Vigilance = paranoia. Perception = awareness. You can be both paranoid and aware, but neither predicates the other. Vigilance is how prepared you are for danger, which may or may not be based on the situation at hand. Perception is how good you are at noticing things.

Jason Bourne is both vigilant and perceptive. He is always prepared to duck, run, attack, return fire, or whatever else the situation depends on. That is vigilance. He is also perceptive: he can recite the license plate numbers of all the cars in the parking lot.

One of the problems with conflating vigilance and perception, on a mechanical level, is that Perception becomes the uber skill that is was in d20. EVERYONE took Perception, because 1) it helped you see stuff and 2) who wants to be surprised in an ambush and get caught flat-footed and everything?

If everyone wants something, then it is too good. Everyone in my Saga Edition play group (back in the day!) had Perception as a trained skill. The ones that didn't start with it ended up getting it within the first few levels. It was, therefore, too good. (or perhaps necessary. And if that is the case, then that's also a problem, because if something is universally necessary it ceases to be a real choice)

Better to have perceptive characters choose Perception, and have vigilant characters choose Vigilance, more for RP purposes than for the mechanical detriment of not having the skill.

My advice: don't go the uber-skill route. Just because there is some crossover in two skills doesn't mean there isn't a place for those two skills.

Cool = poker face, hiding your emotional state

Discipline = internal fortitude, wrestling with your emotional state

Vigilance = alertness, responding to changes in the environment

Perception = awareness, understanding how the elements in the environment are related

Cool = poker face, hiding your emotional state

Discipline = internal fortitude, wrestling with your emotional state

Based on your example: Cool would be hiding the fact that you are off-balance, discipline would be not being off-balance in the first place.

I think the part that needs to be added to that example of cool "not acting on the emotional state". There is a (subtle) difference between preventing an emotional state, or not presenting and acting on it.

Also, Away, your uberskill worry is exactly why we defined "passive awareness" to Vigilance. We found that if Perception was used as the awareness skill, it was still being rolled way to often, and the nearly the only reason to take vigilance was for combat initiative. Having done this, Perception still gets a lot of use - it's used for operating scanners, searching rooms, looking for the ambushers you know have to be in this valley, solving an iSpy game, etc.

Our Mon Cal tried to seduce a Gran merchant... I made him roll Cool for it... It... didn't go well.

This is an incredibly helpful thread, as I've been confused about these three skills, as well.

In my work statting up various alien species (see my sig), I've found that usually FFG books give species with good senses some sort of bonus to Perception specifically, but not to other skills. Chadra-Fan remove setback dice, Chevin add a boost die, but for both this is for Perception checks only. Gran are an exception, since their vision lets them remove setback dice on ranged attacks and to Perception checks.

But, if Vigilance is the passive awareness skill, wouldn't it be logical to extend these special abilities to Vigilance, as well? Letting the Chevin get a bonus to notice that trap because he sniffs it ahead of time, say?

Not necessary. Vigilance isn't about noticing something, it's about realizing it's there and it's out of place. There is actually a very famous study about just this phenomena. So while having good senses would give a clear advantage to Perception, it doesn't necessarily help with vigilance. Indeed, it could actually harm it, because there is more stimulus to shift through.

While I haven't done it yet, if I ever had a mind I'd roll these skills together:

Athletics/Coordination (use Brawn or Agility as appropriate)

Astrogation/Computer

Streetwise/ Knowledge: Underworld (use Intellect or Cunning as appropriate)

Cool/Discipline (use Presence or Willpower as appropriate)

Perception/Vigilance (use Cunning or Willpower as appropriate)

That would bring the list of skills down from 32 to 27. Too many of them feel redundant to me.

They aren't redundant. They are different approaches. they will have different results from failure/success.

IE Stormtroopers are disciplined. Han solo is cool. Cool is more outward not showing reaction. While Discipline is not allowing something to fluster you even if you visibly don't look like you are not being cool.

Charm is using flowery words to convince someone of something. While Coerce is Bullying and threatening.

Many of the skills do overlap in what they can do but their flavor is different and the consequences for succeeding or failing will be different based on what skill was used. Think of them as different approaches to solving problems.

For example Knowledge underworld is what the FBI knows about crime. Where as Streetwise is what the people on the street know about crime. The 2 overlap. But the Streetwise person is less likely to offend someone. And the Knowledge person is more likely to know the encyclopedia knowledge.