Hello,

I don't manage to make astrogration interesting. It is a skill my players have raised, since we roll for it every time they jump into hyperspace, which happens once every two or three sessions. There is no doubt about its use in the game, but it feels kind of flavourless. Problem is, besides astrogration checks made under the pressure of a chase or a combat, I cannot find the appealing of this mechanics.

My premise is that I cannot use "you are being chased" or "shot at" every time my players try to jump into hyperspace. Sometimes the calculations for the jump are placid because they just have the time.

I was thinking to make astrogration sort like the journey rules in The One Ring. May be with a list of hazards that may occur, or with a list of "costs" for the PCs (fuel, energy....).

Any one there has similar issues with it? or could you provide some ideas on how to make astrogration checks more interesting?

Cheers,

Yeah I'd love to hear how to make it more interesting than , astrogation click roll...done...I like the idea of maybe throwing the fuel and food costs...it may help drive the "keeping players hungry for credits" part of the game. The more suxx the less ration and fuel usuage. Failure means a huge amount wasted and even threats could easily equally hull strain or damage to the ship etc. making a terrible jump in battle could make you end up dead in the water and if chased in battle maybe as a GM you could throw a destiny to despair and have the engines fail or even jump into a dangerous area?

First off I like the approach that if its not adding to the story then no roll should be needed. It's the old roll to see how fast it happens, not to see if you succeed.

I like to have dot point lists of info for each PC, relating to their motivation/obligation/duty/morality and back story. These get drawn upon when advantage/triumph is rolled pns check that could be related. If you have a particular party member who is the go too for astrogation checks, or someone who is looking for a place or thing then an astrogation check could be a good time to drop hints...

"As you cycle through the charts for your intended destination another nearby system draws your eye, the name of which reminds you of a conversation you once had with your uncle back on Tatooine. It maybe the prison planet your father was taken too is there"

Or

"Your making the calculations for the next jump when you notice an anomaly. the Nav comp has made you avoid a region that appears to have nothing in it. there may be nothing too it, but there's also the possibility the imps have something to hide. The Rebellion would probably like it if you looked a little deeper and reported back"

My games tend to go a long way off track some times but I love GMing on the fly so this works well for our group.

I've had players use Triumphs to "remember that location X" lays along the course their laying in and they could make a short stop there to get "goods Y" or meet with "person Z" without losing any significant time. This effectively gives them an upgrade on the relevant Negotiation or Streetwise (sometimes another skill) check for what they are seeking. Sometimes I've let them use this option to burn off a little Obligation with the off-camera side action. Of course, Despairs could mean such a side trip went ugly and added a small bit of Obligation...

If your dropping the party into an ambush then a good roll could mean an advantageous start to the combat, boost to initiative? Triumph could give a free round or chance to a cool roll instead of vigilance. Good rolls may also mean dropping out of hyperspace close to target.

On the flip side apply rhe opposite to these if it's a bad roll.

Another thing to try is having systems offline when they drop out of hyperspace, putting preasure on the mechanic and pilot to get them up and running before that group of Tie Fighters close in.

Let them start at a higher than zero speed for example

Our GM put a goal near an out-of-the-way planet requiring a journeyman amount of astrogation skill to get to, then the next goal in a nearby dangerous nebula where a lot of skill (or skilled assist) would be required to jump safely.

Of course, on the way the navigator character decided 'my character would' wander off and leave the group in such a way that no one else had a chance to talk them out of it first, then the skilled assister decided he was going to hijack the ship for his own purposes leading to him being kept off the bridge after that episode. Leaving my character to do the astrogation alone. Luckily I had some XP banked

So if you plan a one character role that is critical to the plot, please be careful who you give it to!

May be I have to be more clear. I have the concern that the Astrogration skill is far too narrow in its application. You use it to calculate Hyperspace jumps. Moreover, sometimes you don't even need to roll for it because it is not important to the plot or because there is nothing at stakes.

I would like to see a "better" or more spread use for astrogration. I know the book also suggests to use it as a kind of "Knowledge" skill about Galaxy geography, but I have the impression in this case it steps into the field of skills such as Knowledge (Outer Rim), Knowledge (Core worlds) and Education. I may be wrong though

We use Astronavigation as a general Navigation skill. (Note that it's used for "plot the course") So it crops up occasionally if they need to work their way through an astroid field to find a particular asteroid, or to see how long it would take to fly between planets. (or a way with less strain on the system, those Ion drives are not meant to run for a week at a time). Even locating ones self, so long as you can see the stars, wouldn't be out of place for the skill.

We've also used it as Galactic Geography, allowing an alternate (easier) roll for what planets are where, and what route go where. Like how Knowledge: US might tell you San Francisco is on the west coast, and New York is on the east coast, Navigation would tell you'd want to take highway 80 to go from one to the other, and that you'd pass though Salt Lake City on the way.

I found an interesting usage for Astrogation in a side quest in the Arda adventure book. The mission was a treasure hunt and Astrogation was used for navigating on foot while following the stars based upon cryptic clues.

A fun thing that I like to do to my players is put them in starship battles that are impossible for them to win. This makes fleeing their only viable option. Say they are trying to leave an Imperial planet, but the Empire wants them dead. I will toss wave after wave of TIE fighters at them until they are either destroyed or they successfully flee. This calls for successful Astrogation checks to be made during the fight. Upgrading the difficulty and adding setback dice due to the distractions and damage that the fight has cause can increase the tension.

I think GMs should put their players in situations where fleeing is the best option. Think about how many times the characters in the Star Wars movies are fleeing from something. Fleeing from Tatooine, fleeing from the detention block on the Death Star, feeling from the garbage pit on the Death Star, fleeing from the Death Star itself, fleeing from the wampa's lair, fleeing from Echo Base, fleeing from the Sarlaac pit, fleeing from Cloud City, fleeing from the exploding Death Star II, and many other situations. I think I got a little carried away there.

Another vote for the 'I Hate Astrogation' crowd. I'm sorely tempted to fold it into Computers, or rename it 'Navigation'. Feels like the designers wanted to include something specifically Star-Wars-y so chucked this in, without any thought as to how useful it would prove. I think we've used it twice, maybe three times in two years, for its original intended purpose. I think I'd actually have preferred to have kept 'Surveillance' if we absolutely must have a useless skill that nobody ever gets.

Peculiarly, the only real use it ever gets is as part of our Consular's 'One With The Universe' rolls.

Oh, another one - Because we are a "totally legitimate" trading company most of the time (ie, between adventures) We've occasionally used Astrogation to determine how good of a trade route we've been running recently.

Astrogation can also be used similar to a knowledge skill, as its understanding the basic and more advanced geography of the Galaxy. While specific knowledge skills may give information about a given world, Astrogation is what gets you there and by what route. Sure, it's fine to know that Kessel is prison system/asteroid/planet with nasty spice mines, and even that there is a black hole cluster near it... Astrogation will tell you that getting there through imperial space is rather limited because it is nestled on a stellar "peninsula" surrounded on many sides by Hutt space...

The way I see it, Astrogation isn't just the ability to read a map, but to know something about the geography of said map. The knowledge skills tell you what you need to know once you get there, but Astrogation gives you the info you need to get you there safely... Or at very least, knowing what risks are involved.

I typically call for Astrogation checks to know neighboring moons/planets/systems.

I once had a despair mean they ware pulled out by an undiscovered plant that they crashed into and gave them a dragon age type story

Our campaign was based around exploration so Astrogation has come up a lot and been really useful.

It acts as a knowledge like kaosoe described, we use it to make astrogation checks whenever the characters are travelling between star systems, especially if they're exploring a part of the galaxy they haven't been before (or where nobody's been).

I'm not sure what to tell you about rules to govern it, though, I just kinda use the dice results to inspire outcomes when they're travelling.

Personally I think it's kinda silly to say "They haven't used it much in my game, it shouldn't be there at all."

Star Wars is a game about travelling throughout the galaxy. It's the very definition of common sense to have a skill which covers that.

There's already things like Knowledge: Outer Rim or Familiar Suns for that. If you're having to turn Astrogation into a catch-all explorer skill, that's already a sign that it doesn't do enough by RAW.

In my current campaign, Astrogation is important. The planet was settled by accident "300 years ago" when a colony ship drifted off course and got lost in an interstellar debris cloud. Once technology and industry were developed enough to explore the stars again, numerous attempts were made to "rediscover the Republic". This finally happened about "50 years ago", and required no less that 15 short jumps to finally emerge near Eriadu. Since then the number of jumps has steadily reduced, so the average is 8, each taking about 2 hours. The record is a mere 5, each taking only an hour.

The planet only has a small Imperial presence, but that's about to balloon Needless to say, time is often of the essence when you're smuggling between the planet and Eriadu. Changes in policy or some bureaucrat trying to corner a piece of the mineral market can mean everything is legal when you leave, but illegal (or highly taxable) when you arrive. (I should make it clear, I don't make the players care about the details of policy this and taxable that until it matters.)

So as far as Astrogation goes, this means "success" is the 8 jump, 2 hour average. Additional successes can cut the number of jumps; advantages can shorten the time per jump. Failure and Threat work the opposite: they still get there, but not as fast as they'd hoped, or they run into pirates. Triumphs can be used how the players want, but it takes a double-Triumph to match the record. Beating the record could be extremely lucrative...

Anyway, I realize most games "span the galaxy" and aren't as localized as this particular campaign, but the ideas might be useful. If you assume that a trip is almost never a one-jump process, it gives you more flexibility.

There's already things like Knowledge: Outer Rim or Familiar Suns for that. If you're having to turn Astrogation into a catch-all explorer skill, that's already a sign that it doesn't do enough by RAW.

No it's not. (that is, I disagree with this assessment)

In my opinion, it's ridiculous to say that Astrogation is a useless skill in a game set in outer space where the PCs fly around on spaceships a lot.

A lot of skills in SWRP can pull double-duty. Sometimes Cool is appropriate, sometimes Discipline is appropriate, sometimes it's a fine distinction so I often let the players choose between two skills.

Sometimes a challenge is clearly Athletics, sometimes it's clearly Coordination, sometimes it could be either, and choosing one over the other means you're doing the same thing in a slightly different way. Again, I'll often give the player a choice.

In my games, Knowledge: Outer Rim could sometimes be an appropriate skill check to know details about spatial topography in the Outer Rim, but sometimes Astrogation is more appropriate if it's a question of stars, planets or travel between them.

Ranged (Light) is a perfectly useful skill to make a knowledge check when the subject is blaster pistols. Brawl or Melee are perfectly useful skills to make knowledge checks about martial arts or the history of hand-to-hand combat.

Likewise, Astrogation is a perfectly useful skill to make a knowledge about traveling around through space.

I'm well within my prerogative to use Astrogation the way it was designed and intended by the developers of the game. There's nothing wrong with this. It's not a "catch-all exploration" skill, it is doing what it was designed to do.

You don't have to like it, but this is a game where many campaigns will feature a lot of intergalactic travelling and it makes perfect sense to have an Astrogation skill and to use them for these things.

raw? I've heard the term a lot. I just want to make sure of what it means

raw? I've heard the term a lot. I just want to make sure of what it means

RAW = Rules As Written

Sure, it's fine to know that Kessel is prison system/asteroid/planet with nasty spice mines, and even that there is a black hole cluster near it... Astrogation will tell you that getting there through imperial space is rather limited because it is nestled on a stellar "peninsula" surrounded on many sides by Hutt space...

I am going to derail my own thread here but, I wonder how the galaxy looks like in 3D. We have a map in 2D, from it we may say, from A to B you have to cross Hutt space. But I wonder, do we? or you may say, Ha! to get to Kessel you have to cross the maw! A terrible dangerous place.... really, must we ? I mean, the galaxy is a 3D object, are the hyperspace lanes 2D objects? do they only bend and twist in the X-Y plane as we see in the map? What about in Z?. How are they in the dimension we miss from the map?

Sure, it's fine to know that Kessel is prison system/asteroid/planet with nasty spice mines, and even that there is a black hole cluster near it... Astrogation will tell you that getting there through imperial space is rather limited because it is nestled on a stellar "peninsula" surrounded on many sides by Hutt space...

I am going to derail my own thread here but, I wonder how the galaxy looks like in 3D. We have a map in 2D, from it we may say, from A to B you have to cross Hutt space. But I wonder, do we? or you may say, Ha! to get to Kessel you have to cross the maw! A terrible dangerous place.... really, must we ? I mean, the galaxy is a 3D object, are the hyperspace lanes 2D objects? do they only bend and twist in the X-Y plane as we see in the map? What about in Z?. How are they in the dimension we miss from the map?

I always felt the same thing in Serenity--they show the 2-dimensional map where Reaver Space is in between their location and their destination, but ... they can't just go 'around' it, apparently

edit: ninja'd

I am going to derail my own thread here but, I wonder how the galaxy looks like in 3D. We have a map in 2D, from it we may say, from A to B you have to cross Hutt space. But I wonder, do we? or you may say, Ha! to get to Kessel you have to cross the maw! A terrible dangerous place.... really, must we ? I mean, the galaxy is a 3D object, are the hyperspace lanes 2D objects? do they only bend and twist in the X-Y plane as we see in the map? What about in Z?. How are they in the dimension we miss from the map?

I do wish they'd made more of the Z coordinates...that said, the galaxy is a pretty thin disk, relatively, so the effect isn't that severe.

Anyway, the way I rationalize it is that really, 99% of the galaxy is "unknown", in that you can't just go in any old direction without running into a dust cloud or a dim red dwarf that nobody saw until it was too late. So the paths we have are only what are known. Astrogation is the art of taking what is known and threading the needle optimally. If you want to "go around Hutt Space" you'll have to do endless iterations of "scan ahead and micro jump" because you're basically in uncharted territory. And you'd better have a lot of consumables on hand because it will take forever.

I always felt the same thing in Serenity--they show the 2-dimensional map where Reaver Space is in between their location and their destination, but ... they can't just go 'around' it, apparently

Yes, plus it's less sensible because all the planets are apparently in a single star system, looping around would be less difficult. And even *less* less sensible because in order to block more than a couple angular degrees, there would have to be trillions of Reavers...