The problem with Whisper + VI + ACD is that it is an extremely mobile ship, with extremely high Agility except for an extremely narrow window.

How do we fight this?

If Whisper can be attacked in that window, she's quite vulnerable.

This requires high Pilot Skill

• High PS is being achieved through Veteran's Instinct on naturally high PS pilots with extra-normal firing arcs. Han, Chiraneau, and Dash, specifically, as they can keep her in their turrets.
• High PS could also be achieved through Roark Garnet.

​This requires either an attack with no blind-spot, or sufficient mobility to catch up to Whisper after decloaking.

• Turrets obviously exist, and are the go-to option.
• Anyone of PS 9 could become mobile enough to get a target on Whisper with a lack of initiative and Stay On Target.

That's Wedge Antilles, Darth Vader (soon to be viable again), Han Solo (who doesn't need it), Baron Soontir Fel (who might get more mileage out of Push the Limit), Tycho Celchu and Jake Farrel, if they also take Veteran's Instincts with the A-Wing Title.

• Autothrusters will allow the Interceptor pilots to join the Anti-Phantom fray with greater gusto, having previously been unviable due to the Turrets.
• Fettigator might also be viable as an Anti-Phantom.

If Whisper can be stressed between moving and finishing her attack, the window is pried open.

• Rebel Captive is the most reliable way of delivering this.
• Anyone who can attack in the window with a stressing attack can also deliver this for the rest of their squad.
• Any way of reliably dealing multiple stress tokens outside of the window is the only other way of achieving this.

If Whisper is Ionized she cannot Decloak.

• This typically requires Ionizing it through its Agility, which isn't likely.
• Alternatively, this could also be achieved through hitting a nearby ship with Ion Torpedoes while she's in Range 1 of it. Still unlikely, but these are the best shot of Ionizing her through her agility anyway.

If Whisper can be targeted by an Autoblaster, its high Agility is ignored, though its mobility still stands.

• Of the ships that can come close to dancing with her mobility, only Fettigator can equip this.
• Autoblaster Turrets are also interesting, but require that you maneuver so that she decloaks at Range 1 of you, and then shoots first. Not as survivable as we'd like, those HWKs and Ys.

If Whisper can be dealt damage without actually attacking it, its shell is fairly useless.

• Proton Bombs carry a high chance of 1-shotting the beast, but only if you can guarantee that it'll decloak into Range 1 of it.

Fortunately, Range 1 of a Proton Bomb can theoretically encompass 3 of the 4 possible locations of the ship. Block the other, and know which maneuver it's doing, and you get your shot.

Fettigator also has the possibility of moving after it decloaks, so you can drop the bomb with full knowledge.

• Proximity Mines close off options for decloaking, but also have the possibility of dropping the mine directly on it for direct damage. Very useful, as you'll know where it will be when planning your maneuver.
• Splash damage from Assault Missiles or Ruthlessness requires that it be in Range 1 of one of its fellow pilots, but are a way for anti-Swarm lists to compete.

So: From this analysis, I see the following potential counters that I want to try out:

Boba Fett + Proton Bombs + Navigator + Veterans Instinct, with consideration for Autoblaster and/or Andrasta Title for more bombs.

Jake Farrell + VI + Stay On Target, flying with a method of getting Focii.

Tycho Celchu + VI + Stay On Target

Wedge Antilles + Stay On Target, flying with a method of clearing stress.

Nera Dantels + Munitions Failsafe + Ion Torpedoes

Also, fleets with several Proximity Mines.

Proximity Mines close off options for decloaking, but also have the possibility of dropping the mine directly on it for direct damage. Very useful, as you'll know where it will be when planning your maneuver.

Probably one of the most potent phantom kills in the game. Surprised it's not actually more widespread.

Tycho Celchu — A-Wing 26

Veteran Instincts 1

Proton Rockets 3

Push the Limit 3

Autothrusters 2

A-Wing Test Pilot 0

8 z95's Block them onto rocks and block the decloaks

Once S+V comes out, I wonder if Horton w/ R2D6 + VI + Prox + EU + Autoblaster would be viable. Move at PS10, you have a natural reroll at R2-3, or can boost into R1 and use the autoblaster that you can't defend against... Or drop the prox mine if your final position is a good one. My guess is it won't work, but I want to find a way to get the Y wing back involved. I can never decide between the Y wing and A wing as being my favorite star wars ship. In X wing, it's currently the A wing, the Y wing hasn't been useful since W3 when Roark for +1pt +2PS +awesome ability, replaced the gold.

Lt Blount cares not for your agility. When he fires Ion missiles you get Ion'd.

The trick I suppose is aligning him. Maybe running him with wedge with VI. Whisper does not want to decloak in front of wedge so it limits the places she could be.

Blount with deadeye and ion pulse missiles. You don't even need a target lock. If he ever ends up anywhere in your arc you insta ion him. Against a good player, you won't get that shot, but you can use blounts arc to herd him where you want him really well. It's also really useful even when facing lists that don't have phantoms.

Torkhil motha-******* Mux.

Brings a phantom down to PS 0 during combat. So they can re-cloak...but your PS1 Z95s are going to be able to shoot at that phantom uncloaked if they have them in arc. Even better with Kavil and his brutal 360 shooting.

A-Wing Swarm bridges are also a way of attaining High PS.

GSP w/ Swarm + Decoy

Combined with Wedge + VI (PS11) the GSP can take his PS and Swarm Chain it to the rest of the squad.

Would also work with the other natural EPT A-Wings.

Corran Horn.

That is all, thank you.

I ran Fett once with VI, Tactician and EU. The theory behing that he can use his bank + boost to get at R2 and stress the phantom before it fires.

Unfortunately during that tourny I never played any phantoms.

Slave + Flechette might be worth looking at too.

While the maneuvers can be hard to predict, with Whisper, you ALWAYS know where the decloaks options are.

And I feel that that is more important to know than knowing which helpful tools/upgrades/abilities that exist to counter the (re-)cloak.

Which of course do help, but are not a substitute for good flying.

(Also. Echo is a mindfuck but is PS 8, so.)

I've been using Roark and a Rookie or Gold with R3A2 in most of my lists since the phantom release. I haven't had any problems with them in my games.

Alternatively shoot them with high quality attacks or attacks that take green dice away. Wedge, PTL/Outmaneuver Jake or anything with a HLC work just fine.

Ps10 Corran can burn whisper down in 1-2 rounds fairly reliably.

Stress Wess (V.I, R3-A2, EU) hits the post-movement, pre-shooting window perfectly

Furthermore, he's guaranteed to slap off the focus regardless of actual damage, or the target lock from FCS which I find greatly contributes to maximizing the phantom's four dice of damage.

the next step is to somehow make flechette cannon viable by finding a PS 10 cannon-bearing ship that isn't nub (because you're paying a lot for an ability that screams for mangos)

Well, Scum's M3-A will have that covered...

Wes+VI and R3A2. You only need that phantom in his arc once, then your escorts will take care of it.

The problem with Whisper + VI + ACD is that it is an extremely mobile ship, with extremely high Agility except for an extremely narrow window.

How do we fight this?

If Whisper can be attacked in that window, she's quite vulnerable.

This requires high Pilot Skill

• High PS is being achieved through Veteran's Instinct on naturally high PS pilots with extra-normal firing arcs. Han, Chiraneau, and Dash, specifically, as they can keep her in their turrets.
• High PS could also be achieved through Roark Garnet.

​This requires either an attack with no blind-spot, or sufficient mobility to catch up to Whisper after decloaking.

• Turrets obviously exist, and are the go-to option.
• Anyone of PS 9 could become mobile enough to get a target on Whisper with a lack of initiative and Stay On Target.

That's Wedge Antilles, Darth Vader (soon to be viable again), Han Solo (who doesn't need it), Baron Soontir Fel (who might get more mileage out of Push the Limit), Tycho Celchu and Jake Farrel, if they also take Veteran's Instincts with the A-Wing Title.

• Autothrusters will allow the Interceptor pilots to join the Anti-Phantom fray with greater gusto, having previously been unviable due to the Turrets.
• Fettigator might also be viable as an Anti-Phantom.

If Whisper can be stressed between moving and finishing her attack, the window is pried open.

• Rebel Captive is the most reliable way of delivering this.
• Anyone who can attack in the window with a stressing attack can also deliver this for the rest of their squad.
• Any way of reliably dealing multiple stress tokens outside of the window is the only other way of achieving this.

If Whisper is Ionized she cannot Decloak.

• This typically requires Ionizing it through its Agility, which isn't likely.
• Alternatively, this could also be achieved through hitting a nearby ship with Ion Torpedoes while she's in Range 1 of it. Still unlikely, but these are the best shot of Ionizing her through her agility anyway.

If Whisper can be targeted by an Autoblaster, its high Agility is ignored, though its mobility still stands.

• Of the ships that can come close to dancing with her mobility, only Fettigator can equip this.
• Autoblaster Turrets are also interesting, but require that you maneuver so that she decloaks at Range 1 of you, and then shoots first. Not as survivable as we'd like, those HWKs and Ys.

If Whisper can be dealt damage without actually attacking it, its shell is fairly useless.

• Proton Bombs carry a high chance of 1-shotting the beast, but only if you can guarantee that it'll decloak into Range 1 of it.

Fortunately, Range 1 of a Proton Bomb can theoretically encompass 3 of the 4 possible locations of the ship. Block the other, and know which maneuver it's doing, and you get your shot.

Fettigator also has the possibility of moving after it decloaks, so you can drop the bomb with full knowledge.

• Proximity Mines close off options for decloaking, but also have the possibility of dropping the mine directly on it for direct damage. Very useful, as you'll know where it will be when planning your maneuver.
• Splash damage from Assault Missiles or Ruthlessness requires that it be in Range 1 of one of its fellow pilots, but are a way for anti-Swarm lists to compete.

So: From this analysis, I see the following potential counters that I want to try out:

Boba Fett + Proton Bombs + Navigator + Veterans Instinct, with consideration for Autoblaster and/or Andrasta Title for more bombs.

Jake Farrell + VI + Stay On Target, flying with a method of getting Focii.

Tycho Celchu + VI + Stay On Target

Wedge Antilles + Stay On Target, flying with a method of clearing stress.

Nera Dantels + Munitions Failsafe + Ion Torpedoes

Also, fleets with several Proximity Mines.

Tycho Celchu with Stay On Target is wasting his ability. He can't perform a red manoeuvre if he is stressed...only actions.

I ran this at Worlds:

Nera Dantels + Deadeye + Munitions Failsafe + Flechette Torpedoes

Roark Garnett + Ion Cannon Turret

Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon Turret

Rookie Pilot + R3-A2

Two ways to stress and two ways to ion. Roark makes sure one of them gets to stress a Phantom before it fires, and with one control option per ship, it weathers losses well. I only faced one Phantom, but his Whisper got off a single attack.

here are my thoughts.

Emon with Andasta title and prox mines

Kavil, but screw autoblaster, I say run the blaster turret with the agro, and you can give him a bomb too if you want.

I think set up right nera can be a major threat,

I think that if you split your formation, keeping a heavy hitter or two back, keep your Arcs wide, use tools like FCS, you can kill a phantom.

A high PS xwing with R3-A2 and EU can give a phantom a really hard time as well.

It isnt that they are unkillable, its that you have to devote a lot of points and alter your flying to do it.

Do you know what's a good way to take down Phantoms? Just shooting at it. I mean, if you have some X-wing Rookies that face off against the Phantom on the approach, most of them will probably be able to fire. Let's go with some Range 3 attacks with Focus. There are 4 Rookies firing. The Phantom only gets one Focus.

Grabbing SteveO's numbers:

Naked Dice 1 Hit - 2 Hit - 3 Hit - 4 Hit - 5 Hit
1 .375 62.5 81.25 87.5 90.62 92.5

2 .75 25 62.5 75 81.25 85

3 1.125 0 43.75 62.5 71.87 87.5

4 1.5 0 25 50 62.5 70

5 1.875 0 6.25 37.5 53.12 62.5

6 2.25 0 0 25 43.75 55

W/ Focus 1 Hit - 2 Hit - 3 Hit - 4 Hit - 5 Hit
1 .675 32.5 66.25 77.5 83.12 92.5
2 1.35 0 32.5 55 66.25 73
3 2.025 0 0 32.5 49.37 59.5
4 2.7 0 0 10 32.5 46
5 3.375 0 0 0 15.62 32.5
6 4.05 0 0 0 0 19

So, with Focus and 5 green dice, you get an average evade of 3.375. That's enough to ignore one shot. OK, but what about without Focus? That's 1.875 average. What's the average of 3 dice with Focus? Higher than that, I know. So, chances are that you will get a hit or two in on a cloaked Phantom at Range 5 as long as you have more than one person shoot at it.

The Phantom only has 2 shield and 2 hull. It will die when it starts taking hits.

The Phantom is wily and agile. It can go to places and be very hard to predict. That doesn't mean that you can't face off against it. Rebels are usually brutal on the approach and as long you don't let it flank you, you can get shots off at it. You can play smart and try to expect where the Phantom will come in at you from. I saw a German YouTube video (might have been Thrawn) that showed 4 X-wings taking on a Phantom list. Two X-wings did the standard approach, but 2 others banked a bit at a 45 degree angle from them. Due to where the Phantom was coming in from, there was no where it could go that it would be in range and not get shot at by at least 2 X-wings. That's some shots at it on the approach. It will weaken itt.

Those numbers are with 4 Rookies. Add in a normal squad of 4 X-wings and we will see more damage piled in with special abilities and EPTs.

If you cover your fields of fire, the Phantom will have to get shot at by someone most turns. Just keep plugging away at it and the Phantom will flub it's rolls. Or....roll average and still take damage.

Do you know what's a good way to take down Phantoms? Just shooting at it

Well, that's the idea, but it's easier said than done

That's why you gotta try your darndest to get it to stop freaking de-cloaking every turn. Once it stops moving like it owns the bloody table, you can just brick it into submission.

Without that, you usually don't get many shots (or you get more shots at long range with wider arcs, but the buggers get another green die) and the green dice spikes can increase the phantom's value exceptionally (or get it murdered by soontir and a bounty hunter in one turn...dice are...whimsical like that)

Do you know what's a good way to take down Phantoms? Just shooting at it. I mean, if you have some X-wing Rookies that face off against the Phantom on the approach, most of them will probably be able to fire. Let's go with some Range 3 attacks with Focus. There are 4 Rookies firing. The Phantom only gets one Focus.

Grabbing SteveO's numbers:

Naked Dice 1 Hit - 2 Hit - 3 Hit - 4 Hit - 5 Hit

1 .375 62.5 81.25 87.5 90.62 92.5

2 .75 25 62.5 75 81.25 85

3 1.125 0 43.75 62.5 71.87 87.5

4 1.5 0 25 50 62.5 70

5 1.875 0 6.25 37.5 53.12 62.5

6 2.25 0 0 25 43.75 55

W/ Focus 1 Hit - 2 Hit - 3 Hit - 4 Hit - 5 Hit

1 .675 32.5 66.25 77.5 83.12 92.5

2 1.35 0 32.5 55 66.25 73

3 2.025 0 0 32.5 49.37 59.5

4 2.7 0 0 10 32.5 46

5 3.375 0 0 0 15.62 32.5

6 4.05 0 0 0 0 19

So, with Focus and 5 green dice, you get an average evade of 3.375. That's enough to ignore one shot. OK, but what about without Focus? That's 1.875 average. What's the average of 3 dice with Focus? Higher than that, I know. So, chances are that you will get a hit or two in on a cloaked Phantom at Range 5 as long as you have more than one person shoot at it.

The Phantom only has 2 shield and 2 hull. It will die when it starts taking hits.

The Phantom is wily and agile. It can go to places and be very hard to predict. That doesn't mean that you can't face off against it. Rebels are usually brutal on the approach and as long you don't let it flank you, you can get shots off at it. You can play smart and try to expect where the Phantom will come in at you from. I saw a German YouTube video (might have been Thrawn) that showed 4 X-wings taking on a Phantom list. Two X-wings did the standard approach, but 2 others banked a bit at a 45 degree angle from them. Due to where the Phantom was coming in from, there was no where it could go that it would be in range and not get shot at by at least 2 X-wings. That's some shots at it on the approach. It will weaken itt.

Those numbers are with 4 Rookies. Add in a normal squad of 4 X-wings and we will see more damage piled in with special abilities and EPTs.

If you cover your fields of fire, the Phantom will have to get shot at by someone most turns. Just keep plugging away at it and the Phantom will flub it's rolls. Or....roll average and still take damage.

3F vs. 5F = .18 average damage

3F vs. 5(naked) = .72 damage

So, if we're to just assume the first shot spends the focus, and all 4 X wings have a shot, then your average damage would be 2.34 - barely half dead. But wait, it's more than likely a whisper, which means that she gets a free focus upon hitting you (4v3 unmodified = 1.06 average damage, with a 61% to hit)... Which means that she either has a second focus if he's playing it aggressive, or more likely, an evade token.

So, if we say that the first two attacks are against focused defense, you come up with an expected damage of 1.8. Or if we say she has an evade token, you end up with 1.34 average damage. But wait, these numbers are actually higher than the true expected damage since she's not always going to be spending the focus on the first defense.

On defense, you have a 76% of rolling at least 1 focus, and a 37% chance of rolling two or more focii. In the mean time, you have a 62% chance of rolling 2+ evades, and a 90% of rolling at least 1 evade. So, for sake of not having to calculate actual attack vs. defense rolls, I'm going to say that 29% (38% of not rolling at least 2 evades * 76% of rolling at least 1 focus) of the time, you're going to need to spend the focus token to stay alive. This is based on agility dice only, and isn't taking into consideration the times where the attacker will roll 3 hits and you'll need to roll 3 evades, or the time when the attacker rolls 0-1 hits and you won't need to roll evades =P.

With that bias in place, the average damage, assuming you have 1 focus token and 1 evade token, comes out to be .49 average damage.

And this is assuming all 4 X wings 1) Live to attack, 2) Have shots on Whisper, 3) Whisper is cloaked w/ a F (from ability) + E (from action).

Stress Wess (V.I, R3-A2, EU) hits the post-movement, pre-shooting window perfectly

Furthermore, he's guaranteed to slap off the focus regardless of actual damage, or the target lock from FCS which I find greatly contributes to maximizing the phantom's four dice of damage.

the next step is to somehow make flechette cannon viable by finding a PS 10 cannon-bearing ship that isn't nub (because you're paying a lot for an ability that screams for mangos)

Well, Scum's M3-A will have that covered...

Boba fett with vi. Scum boba could even be better if at range 1

Stress Wess (V.I, R3-A2, EU) hits the post-movement, pre-shooting window perfectly

Furthermore, he's guaranteed to slap off the focus regardless of actual damage, or the target lock from FCS which I find greatly contributes to maximizing the phantom's four dice of damage.

the next step is to somehow make flechette cannon viable by finding a PS 10 cannon-bearing ship that isn't nub (because you're paying a lot for an ability that screams for mangos)

Well, Scum's M3-A will have that covered...

Boba fett with vi. Scum boba could even be better if at range 1

It's a one damage max cannon, though. At the point, I'd rather just blast the poor thing

Not to say the cannon couldn't be incredibly effective at setting up that scenario, though...

@Khyros: Ouch, I admit that too many numbers and my head hurts. Yes, I was the one to bring them up.

I will say that my example uses 4 Rookies, but that probably wouldn't be the list. You can throw in an elite pilot or two that would be able to throw things in your favor, as well. I think, though, that you could bank on the average of one hit a turn. I'm fine with that, though, as it only has 4 hits.

I do believe that the chances of someone flubbing their dice, though, will allow more damage through. I've seen Phantoms take damage at Range 3 while cloaked from 3 red dice attacks numerous times to think that I would only get an average of 1 hit in with all those shoots. Sure, those are the averages, but when you fire more often you increase the risk of variance. I've done damage with my Tie Fighters vs. cloaked Phantoms before. Shoot enough and it will die.

I think having more ships works in your favor to a degree. 4 X-wings works better than 3 X-wings, but I wouldn't think 7 Tie Fighters are better.