@Khyros: Ouch, I admit that too many numbers and my head hurts. Yes, I was the one to bring them up.

I will say that my example uses 4 Rookies, but that probably wouldn't be the list. You can throw in an elite pilot or two that would be able to throw things in your favor, as well. I think, though, that you could bank on the average of one hit a turn. I'm fine with that, though, as it only has 4 hits.

I do believe that the chances of someone flubbing their dice, though, will allow more damage through. I've seen Phantoms take damage at Range 3 while cloaked from 3 red dice attacks numerous times to think that I would only get an average of 1 hit in with all those shoots. Sure, those are the averages, but when you fire more often you increase the risk of variance. I've done damage with my Tie Fighters vs. cloaked Phantoms before. Shoot enough and it will die.

I think having more ships works in your favor to a degree. 4 X-wings works better than 3 X-wings, but I wouldn't think 7 Tie Fighters are better.

Quite the opposite actually. The more dice you roll (or the more sets of dice you roll) the more you decrease your variance. Just the other day, I did a damage with an A wing at R3 (with a focus) against cloaked phantom... 2v5 = 1 damage...

And I made some dude really upset at Nationals when I took a 3 dice R3 obstructed shot at his 1hull phantom, AND IT WENT THROUGH for the win. But the flip side of that is that I took half a dozen R1-2 shots that failed to do any damage in order to set up that 7th shot that actually did damage.

I've also taken dozens of R1 shots against a cloak phantom that failed to do any damage. Heck I launched my Prockets against the phantom in the above example, 5FTL vs 4F and only did 2 damage...

But all of this are just examples that stick out in my head because the out of the ordinary are the ones we remember. I will conclude with actual numbers.

A phantom at R3 with a focus token has a .74% of rolling blanks. It has a 6% of only rolling 1 evade. And it has a 21% of only rolling 2 evades. Which means that if you're consistently rolling 3 hits (42%), then you only have a 27.74% of actually doing damage. If we aggregate this all out, you have a 13.51% of doing damage at R3 if both of you have a focus token. Which means that with 4 X wings shooting, you have a 44% chance of doing any damage (assuming each shot is 3F vs. 5F).

High PS Phantoms with Advanced Cloak aren't unbeatable. Their biggest down side is they are hard to fly. Sure they have four attack dice and four defense dice (usually) but if anything goes wrong, say they get stressed, then they only have 2 agility and 4 hits. You would have to ask Juggler, but I think 2 agility and 4 hits makes them the easiest ships in the whole game to kill.

Things that will ruin a Phantoms day besides having a 360 firing arc or gunner.

Mara Jade

Rebel Captive

Hobbie + R3A2

Anything with R3A2

Ruthless

Assault Missiles

Getting Blocked

Getting Uncloak-Blocked

Ion Turret (sure this is a 360 firing arc, but it isn't that hard to get for the rebels)

Proximity Mines close off options for decloaking, but also have the possibility of dropping the mine directly on it for direct damage. Very useful, as you'll know where it will be when planning your maneuver.

Probably one of the most potent phantom kills in the game. Surprised it's not actually more widespread.

Because Phantoms don't fly alone. If proximity mines are too much of a problem a lowly academy pilot can act as a mine sweeper and clear it for the phantom.

Finding a build that is good against Phantoms is not that hard. Finding a build that is good against both fat turrets and phantom menaces, now that is the challenge. Finding a build that is good against turrets, phantoms, and Tie swarms is **** near impossible.

Corran Horn/Luke Skywalker + Veteran Instincts, Flachette Torpedoes.

Stressing a Phantom before it can recloak will make it much easier to kill, no extra 2 defense dice, mobility cut by 1/3. Getting the Phantom in arc the first time will still be a challenge, but you can add upgrades to make that easier, like R7-T1, which lets you adjust your aim while still getting the TL you need for Flachettes. I am planning on trying this Luke with R7-T1, Shield Upgrade and 4 Prototypes.

Most of the answers people are giving for countering Phantoms, the Phantom player can just ignore. It's like setting a trap and then putting a giant neon sign over it that says "COME STEP IN THIS TRAP!".

• Rebel Captive only works if the Phantom player shoots at it with the Phantom instead of the other 60 points in his list. The Phantom will just shoot at the other ships that don't have Rebel Captive, and rough up the Rebel Captive ship with the rest of their 60 points.
• Mara Jade doesn't affect the Phantom's 4 agility or it's ability to decloak, and requires the Phantom player to willingly stay in range 1 of that ship.
• R3-A2 and Tactician also have no affect on the Phantom's cloaking unless the wearer is shooting before PS9, and only work if the Phantom is in arc, which is not helpful if the problem you're trying to solve is keeping the Phantom in arc.
• Assault Missiles, Ion Pulse Missiles and Ruthlessness require the Phantom to willingly stay within Range 1 of the rest of it's support, which is something you never see Phantoms doing anyway. You'd also have to trigger Assault Missiles or Ruthlessness 4 times to actually kill the Phantom.

Blocking a Phantom is very difficult since Phantoms have 4 options when decloaking and can decloak through ships if they're not perfectly blocked, so you need at least 6 ships, 4 to block the Phantom and at least 2 to take a decent shot at it. And blocking is very obvious the turn before you do it, so the Phantom player can just choose a maneuver that will take them out of the fight without decloaking. A good swarm player cannot block a good Phantom player, even the Swarm World Champion, Doug Kinney, has proven it.

When considering a Phantom counter, your counter needs to actually work against a decent Phantom player rolling decent dice. You can't just assume the Phantom is going to do something stupid like stay in the arc of your stress dealing ship or trigger your stress inducing upgrade or fly straight into your swarm. You need to have a plan to proactively shut the Phantom down and either kill it or make it stay out of the fight, no matter which way it squirms.

Quite the opposite actually. The more dice you roll (or the more sets of dice you roll) the more you decrease your variance. Just the other day, I did a damage with an A wing at R3 (with a focus) against cloaked phantom... 2v5 = 1 damage...

Wouldn't you say, though, that the more shots you have that there is a greater chance for an outlier? In other words, the more times you fire, there is a greater chance that you might roll incredibly well or that your opponent rolls incredibly bad. I know that the average will move closer towards the middle, but that there is a greater chance that one of those shots will be beneficial. Right? Notice I'm not a math major.

Boba Fett + VI + Navigator + Engine + Slave I + Flechette Torpedoes + Autoblaster + Proton Bombs

...use ALL the anti-Phantom things!

(For the low, low bargain price of 55 60 points.)

• R3-A2 and Tactician also have no affect on the Phantom's cloaking unless the wearer is shooting before PS9, and only work if the Phantom is in arc, which is not helpful if the problem you're trying to solve is keeping the Phantom in arc.

I've found EU on a PS 10 pilot solves most Phantom arc problems.

It's hard to see EU in this meta as anything more than a fatty's "get out of jail/****-up free card" but on arced ships it has the essential offense benefit of orientating your firing arc another 45 degrees.

R3-A2 (or the less reliable tactician) take care of the rest regardless of damage inflicted by setting you up for a 40 point Tie Fighter/Head-hunter freak spawn where the phantom used to be.

I have been a big fan (advocate) of using either Wes+VI+R3-A2 or (for 1 pt cheaper) Luke+VI+R3-A2.

You don't need a whole bunch of crazy combinations. The Phantom will stress once, which is all you need.

Step 1.

Devote your entire squad to killing the Phantom first.

Step 1.

Devote your entire squad to killing the Phantom first.

step 2.

Cry.

Step 2. Attempt to keep the rest of your list relevant vs other squads that don't run Phantoms.

Step 3a. Quit and pick up a turret like everyone else.

or

Step 3b. Keep plugging and playing until you find something that fits your play style and performs averagely against all builds. A Jack of all trades, a master of none, if you will.

I realize this thread is more about list-building than tactics, but I have to get this off my chest. The best counter to a Phantom is experience playing against one. No pilot or upgrade will help you if you can't learn to anticipate where the Phantom is likely to be at the end of Activation. If you can do this, any of the aforementioned upgrades will work.

And, really, we're only talking about Echo here. Whisper and the others waaaaay easier to judge than Echo.