Think of it this way:

Pilot X has the pilot ability : Once per round when you receive a stress token you may immediately discard it.

Pilot X has an EPT, he takes Push the Limit. He can PtL without ever paying its stress cost.

This is not breaking the rules because you are paying extra points for the ability to have him ignore stress.

With huge ships there is a built in cost to every huge ship that allows them to negate all stress received.

By that logic the Raider does pay the price.

No it doesn't, because per the rules the stress doesn't actually ever get to the ship, it's discarded because it has no effect. It is nothing at all like a ship that gets the stress then can do something positive with it.

It's no different than the FAQ entry for Captain Yorr.

If, through his pilot ability, Captain Yorr intercepts a stress token that is part of the cost of triggering an ability on another ship (such as Soontir Fel or Opportunist), that ability’s effect does not resolve.

So we actually have precedence for the fact that if a ship doesn't pay the cost of ability then that ability doesn't actually resolve.

Here's the section from Huge Ship rules that covers it.

Focus, Evade, and Stress Tokens

Focus, evade, and stress tokens do not affect huge ships. When a huge ship receives any of these tokens, immediately remove them and return them to the token supply.

It doesn't say to simply discard the stress, it says that the token has no effect. So it's not the same thing as your made up ability above.

focus, evAde, And stress tokens

It says tokens to get to the ship, they are then just immediately removed.

No it doesn't as I pointed out it says that the tokens have no effect. There's a difference between discarding something because an ability allows you to do so. Or using that token to do something, and the token having no effect.

I've lost track, are we still talking about Fleet officer, or red maneuvers for Navigator?

Either way, this bit isn't really correct.

It's no different than the FAQ entry for Captain Yorr.

If, through his pilot ability, Captain Yorr intercepts a stress token that is part of the cost of triggering an ability on another ship (such as Soontir Fel or Opportunist), that ability’s effect does not resolve.

So we actually have precedence for the fact that if a ship doesn't pay the cost of ability then that ability doesn't actually resolve.

In both those cases (Fleet Officer and Red Maneuvers) receiving a stress isn't really a cost of an ability, it is a consequence of using those abilities. Soontir's pilot ability, by contrast, is phrased as a cost "Recieve a stress token to do X." that is different from "Do X and then recieve a stress token." Yorr's ability doesn't work on the first example (soontir) because it is intercepting the trigger for the ability "Receive a stress token...", if he never receives the stress token the ability doesn't trigger. Fleet Officer and Red Maneuvers (and PTL) do work with Yorr though because the stress is not a trigger for the ability, but rather a consequence, the thing triggers and then get the stress.

Fleet Officer and Red Maneuvers (and PTL) do work with Yorr though because the stress is not a trigger for the ability, but rather a consequence, the thing triggers and then get the stress.

But that may not apply to Huge ships since Stress has no effect on them. The token may as well never get there because even if you put the token on the ship it doesn't actually do anything.

A Huge ship can never enter the status <stressed> and all the token is, is a way to denote that status.

The FAQ is honestly more useful as an example of intent than anything else. Since we're talking about a possible new rule. The mere fact that it would be a new rule means existing rules may very well not apply. Same as how the attack rules don't actually allow for turrets to work, but we still use them.

It says tokens to get to the ship, they are then just immediately removed.

No it doesn't as I pointed out it says that the tokens have no effect. There's a difference between discarding something because an ability allows you to do so. Or using that token to do something, and the token having no effect.

Exactly and Huge ships have the ability to discard Stress tokens.

If you wish to continue ignoring logic though you can continue attempting to make the opposite seem correct.

Fleet Officer and Red Maneuvers (and PTL) do work with Yorr though because the stress is not a trigger for the ability, but rather a consequence, the thing triggers and then get the stress.

But that may not apply to Huge ships since Stress has no effect on them. The token may as well never get there because even if you put the token on the ship it doesn't actually do anything.

A Huge ship can never enter the status <stressed> and all the token is, is a way to denote that status.

The FAQ is honestly more useful as an example of intent than anything else. Since we're talking about a possible new rule. The mere fact that it would be a new rule means existing rules may very well not apply. Same as how the attack rules don't actually allow for turrets to work, but we still use them.

Actually the faq explicitly states Huge ships can receive stress tokens, they just immediately discard them. The next part of your post is saying we should ignore the exact words on the faq because it counters your point? Well I have nothing that can counter that, apart from common sense.

Actually the faq explicitly states Huge ships can receive stress tokens, they just immediately discard them. The next part of your post is saying we should ignore the exact words on the faq because it counters your point? Well I have nothing that can counter that, apart from common sense.

Why is this important to you? You're attempting to draw a distinction between never receiving a token, and receiving a token that can't affect you and which you have to discard immediately.

You're right, in a very narrow technical sense, but I really don't understand why the difference matters.

The fact it may or may not get the token, isn't the issue here. The fact that the token means nothing is. I can put a focus token on a Huge ship, but that doesn't actually do anything. But hey if you want to keep trying to base your argument on the physical location of a bit of cardboard... Feel free.

Actually the faq explicitly states Huge ships can receive stress tokens, they just immediately discard them. The next part of your post is saying we should ignore the exact words on the faq because it counters your point? Well I have nothing that can counter that, apart from common sense.

Why is this important to you? You're attempting to draw a distinction between never receiving a token, and receiving a token that can't affect you and which you have to discard immediately.

You're right, in a very narrow technical sense, but I really don't understand why the difference matters.

Because if a Huge ship receives a Stress token then negates it that is an ability that is part of the ship. Similar to Pilot Abilities (as I illustrated a few pages back) that means removing stress is counted for as part of the cost of the ship and thus doesn't break any rules (or imagined rules) by having a stress giving ability on a Huge ship.

Because if a Huge ship receives a Stress token then negates it that is an ability that is part of the ship. Similar to Pilot Abilities (as I illustrated a few pages back)

These are not the same thing.

The Huge ship may do something that would normally cause it to get a stress token. But the ship can not actually enter the <stressed> state. The cardboard token doesn't actually change the game state.

A small or large ship on the other hand that gets one and discards it actually enters the <stressed> state, which is a trigger that can affect things.

The Huge ships don't simply discard the stress token, it never affects them in the first place. There is never a point in which you could trigger an effect that has "when getting a stress token" when dealing with Huge ships.

It's the same basic thing as Yorr and Fel, in both cases since the ship in question never actually enters the <stressed> state, then there is nothing to trigger the effect.

I think I see the point he is trying to make vanor.

The only requirement regarding the stress token on fleet officer is that you take it...not necessarily that it will affect you. Huge ships DO take stress tokens per the rules he has pointed out above...they just immediately discard them. Thus, technically, they are "paying the price" for the action. I think that is what he is trying to explain. Based on that I, personally, think he is correct. Having said that, I have no opinion on weather or not this how it should be...this is just how it appears based on the rules as I understand them. If you can show me, in the rules, where a huge ship doesn't take a stress token even for a split second I'll agree with you. But thus far he looks correct to me.

Please don't take this in my typical confrontational style. No offense or any other negative connotations are intended. I am not here to argue this one...just wanted to chime in what I was seeing.

Carry on.

Huge ships DO take stress tokens per the rules he has pointed out above...they just immediately discard them.

But again the rules aren't based on the physical location of a bit of cardboard, they're based on the game state, and Huge ships can never be in a state of Stressed.

For example take Yorr and Fel. The FAQ quite clearly states that Fel doesn't get to use his special ability if Yorr takes that stress. If we try to argue that the location of the token itself matters, then if I put it on Fel's base first does he get to use his ability even though I move it to Yorr?

I mean he did get the stress, just immediately passed it on to someone else.

Can Yorr intercept stress from a huge ship? I'd say no, again we're talking about game states not where a token is.

Actually the faq explicitly states Huge ships can receive stress tokens, they just immediately discard them. The next part of your post is saying we should ignore the exact words on the faq because it counters your point? Well I have nothing that can counter that, apart from common sense.

Why is this important to you? You're attempting to draw a distinction between never receiving a token, and receiving a token that can't affect you and which you have to discard immediately.

You're right, in a very narrow technical sense, but I really don't understand why the difference matters.

Because if a Huge ship receives a Stress token then negates it that is an ability that is part of the ship. Similar to Pilot Abilities (as I illustrated a few pages back) that means removing stress is counted for as part of the cost of the ship and thus doesn't break any rules (or imagined rules) by having a stress giving ability on a Huge ship.

I still don't care, though. Regardless of whether Fleet Officer is capable of paying the cost to activate the card in a narrow sense--and I don't think anyone here is arguing that a Raider is actually unable to activate a Fleet Officer--it's clear that the stress token isn't going to have any effect on play.

So your list is getting the benefit of a Fleet Officer without having to deal with the cost.

Just think of it like this. Every single Huge Ship Captain - is Tycho. They can never K-Turn and Stress has no effect on them. It's an advantage of having that high point cost. There is no reason why Fleet Officer should in any way be changed or prevented from going on a Huge Ship.

Fleet Officer and Red Maneuvers (and PTL) do work with Yorr though because the stress is not a trigger for the ability, but rather a consequence, the thing triggers and then get the stress.

But that may not apply to Huge ships since Stress has no effect on them. The token may as well never get there because even if you put the token on the ship it doesn't actually do anything.

A Huge ship can never enter the status <stressed> and all the token is, is a way to denote that status.

The FAQ is honestly more useful as an example of intent than anything else. Since we're talking about a possible new rule. The mere fact that it would be a new rule means existing rules may very well not apply. Same as how the attack rules don't actually allow for turrets to work, but we still use them.

I wasn't really commenting on the debate, just pointing out that the example you posted re: Yorr didn't apply.

The rules are actually fairly consistent in that "Receive X to do Y" is different than "Do Y then receive X". In the first case X is a cost and must be applied before Y can happen. With any abilities structured like this your argument might carry some weight (as others are demonstrating, it can still be argued that the huge ship is receiving the stress, but I don't want to get in to that just now) but in the latter case X isn't a "cost", it is a deleterious effect of the ability, and the rules have been pretty consistent that some effects of abilities can be negated and circumvented without screwing up the rest of the ability.

Actually the faq explicitly states Huge ships can receive stress tokens, they just immediately discard them. The next part of your post is saying we should ignore the exact words on the faq because it counters your point? Well I have nothing that can counter that, apart from common sense.

Why is this important to you? You're attempting to draw a distinction between never receiving a token, and receiving a token that can't affect you and which you have to discard immediately.

You're right, in a very narrow technical sense, but I really don't understand why the difference matters.

Because if a Huge ship receives a Stress token then negates it that is an ability that is part of the ship. Similar to Pilot Abilities (as I illustrated a few pages back) that means removing stress is counted for as part of the cost of the ship and thus doesn't break any rules (or imagined rules) by having a stress giving ability on a Huge ship.

I still don't care, though. Regardless of whether Fleet Officer is capable of paying the cost to activate the card in a narrow sense--and I don't think anyone here is arguing that a Raider is actually unable to activate a Fleet Officer--it's clear that the stress token isn't going to have any effect on play.

So your list is getting the benefit of a Fleet Officer without having to deal with the cost.

Actually I think this is pretty close to the argument. IIRC Vanor is saying that he expects FFG to somehow restrict Fleet Officers from being elligible to go on a Huge Ship do to the stress. I might not have his exact wording, but thats what I believe prompted this entire line of discussion.

So your list is getting the benefit of a Fleet Officer without having to deal with the cost.

It's completely possible that FFG will allow such a thing. But what VS says here is my logic on why they may not allow such a thing.

Yes the stress from Fleet Officer or Mara isn't technically a cost, but it is an effect that all small and large ships must deal with in one way or another. Since Huge ships never have to deal with that effect in anyway, FFG may not allow them to use it. But then again maybe they will.

I'm not trying to say what FFG will do, just what they might do and why they may do it.

I just want to caveat that by saying they DO have to deal with the cost... just not a certain aspect of the cost. It still costs points, a slot, and your action.

And to be fair I can understand what you are saying. I think that due to the fact that the ship costs 100 points, they can probably let something like that slide. Especially due to thematic flavor. I think a Fleet Officer would be much more at home aboard a much larger ship, than say, in a phantom.

VanorDM, konradkurze, I think you just have a different point of view, and repeating the facts over and over isn't going to change either of them. You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.

Just think of it like this. Every single Huge Ship Captain - is Tycho.

But stress does affect Tycho, if he selects a red maneuver when stressed it affects him the same as every other ship.

Huge ships on the other hand can never be affected by stress.

IIRC Vanor is saying that he expects FFG to somehow restrict Fleet Officers from being elligible to go on a Huge Ship do to the stress.

No, I'm not expecting that, I'm saying it's possible they may restrict Fleet Officer and Mara, and other such upgrades, because part of the effect of them is something that has no effect on a Huge ship.

Clearly FFG put that in there as a 'cost' of using Fleet Officer or Mara, and as such they may not let a ship that can't pay that cost benefit from the upgrade.

I would imagine that the phrasing in the faq is in the case that some kind of team, crew or upgrade if the ship gains a stress token does something.

Thus while a huge ship cannot keep stress and immediately discards them, maybe gets a fuzzy dice on the bridge as a special ability granted by such a future card.

Gain 1 fuzzy dice if this ship receives a stress token. Well it received it.

I think that due to the fact that the ship costs 100 points, they can probably let something like that slide. Especially due to thematic flavor. I think a Fleet Officer would be much more at home aboard a much larger ship, than say, in a phantom.

That's completely possible. I've never said this will happen, in fact I've tried very hard to say it's just a possible ruling they may make.

Everyone assumes they'll be loading the Raider up with Fleet Officer and Mara, so I just pointed out that it may not work that way, and why.

Thus while a huge ship cannot keep stress and immediately discards them

Again this is not true. It's not that the ship can't keep the stress token. It's that the ships state is not affected by the token one way or another. The token itself simply doesn't matter, it's just a way to track a gamestate.

Going back to Yorr, if you for some reason wanted to redirect the stress from a Huge ship to the shuttle, IMO you could not do such a thing. Because again the token itself isn't the issue here, it's the game state.