Am I the only one a little miffed that the ship designed to jump in, cause problems, and jump out doesn't have a jam action?

Doesn't only one ship have jam action, the GR-75?

FFG take my money already! It's an agonizing wait between shipping and availability...

Doesn't only one ship have jam action, the GR-75?

FFG take my money already! It's an agonizing wait between shipping and availability...

Well, there's the option to pre-order.

Also, the Raider just went to the printer, so there is some shift in it all.

Maybe I missed it, but we still do not know how many epic points the Raider will cost, right?

Yeah, I don't see the big deal with Navigator either - if your fighters are in position to be rammed by him then you're doing it wrong. Assuming he'll do a speed 1 is very brave, in my opinion.

That said, I agree that actions/effects requiring a stress shouldn't be allowed on huge ships, like performing surge actions in Imperial Assault when you've reached your endurance limit.

Maybe I missed it, but we still do not know how many epic points the Raider will cost, right?

Not officially, but given that it is explicitly supposed to be an imperial equivalent to the cr-90, I don't see any reason at all to think it will be anything other than 3 EPs, same as the corvette.

Maybe I missed it, but we still do not know how many epic points the Raider will cost, right?

Not officially, but given that it is explicitly supposed to be an imperial equivalent to the cr-90, I don't see any reason at all to think it will be anything other than 3 EPs, same as the corvette.

That being said, base cost is 100 points, vs. 90 for the corvette... And, that would mean that we can expect a 2nd huge for Imperials? This would be unfortunate that they did not announce everything at once (as they did for the transport+tantive).

Now I have only played like three epic games but I just not feeling that the Navigator would be all that powerful on an epic ship. I can now at least see where the concern comes from but I am not sure that it is needed.

That said, I agree that actions/effects requiring a stress shouldn't be allowed on huge ships, like performing surge actions in Imperial Assault when you've reached your endurance limit.

Yeah I just don't see FFG letting people use a card that has a cost with it, that you don't actually pay. How powerful that card may be isn't in anyway relevant. I'm also not saying I don't think they should let you use Fleet Officer or Mara on the Raider.

And, that would mean that we can expect a 2nd huge for Imperials?

The point cost is no reason to assume anything. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 2nd Huge Imperial ship, but the point cost of the Raider has nothing to do with it.

Also as was said above, I fully expect it to be 3 EP's to limit it to one per player.

Looks like the Raider is at the printer now and it has shockingly been bumped from Q1 to Q2.

That said, I agree that actions/effects requiring a stress shouldn't be allowed on huge ships, like performing surge actions in Imperial Assault when you've reached your endurance limit.

Yeah I just don't see FFG letting people use a card that has a cost with it, that you don't actually pay. How powerful that card may be isn't in anyway relevant. I'm also not saying I don't think they should let you use Fleet Officer or Mara on the Raider.

Ah, but as someone mentioned, they already do with Expose. Hmm.

Ah, but as someone mentioned, they already do with Expose.

Not really. It's just a cost that the Decimator may not pay, but there's nothing in the rules that state it can never pay that cost, no matter what. If you were to put a Stealth Device on it, or when Kirkrik's ability kicks in, the Decimator does in fact pay the cost of Expose.

Besides, how do you limit Expose in such a way that only the Decimator can't take it? With the Epic rules it's fairly easy to say cards X, Y and Z aren't allowed on any Huge ship.

I could be completely wrong of course. FFG may not say a thing about those upgrades. I'm not even sure that they would be broken or OP'ed. I'm just saying I expect that at first anyway, you'll see a restriction on cards that have a cost, that can not be paid. Same way we saw Gunner/Luke restricted and latter allowed. Seems there was a 3rd card that was restricted as well, but I can't remember what.

Ah, but as someone mentioned, they already do with Expose.

Not really. It's just a cost that the Decimator may not pay, but there's nothing in the rules that state it can never pay that cost, no matter what. If you were to put a Stealth Device on it, or when Kirkrik's ability kicks in, the Decimator does in fact pay the cost of Expose.

Besides, how do you limit Expose in such a way that only the Decimator can't take it? With the Epic rules it's fairly easy to say cards X, Y and Z aren't allowed on any Huge ship.

I could be completely wrong of course. FFG may not say a thing about those upgrades. I'm not even sure that they would be broken or OP'ed. I'm just saying I expect that at first anyway, you'll see a restriction on cards that have a cost, that can not be paid. Same way we saw Gunner/Luke restricted and latter allowed. Seems there was a 3rd card that was restricted as well, but I can't remember what.

I think you're probably right. My preference would be for a really simple ruling that said "if a card instructs you to take a stress token you may not equip this card on a huge ship".

I assume Stay on Target is banned in Epic play on Huge Ships too?

I assume Stay on Target is banned in Epic play on Huge Ships too?

Yes... sorta. The CR-90 and GR-75 can't take EPTs, so effectively yes.

I assume Stay on Target is banned in Epic play on Huge Ships too?

Yes... sorta. The CR-90 and GR-75 can't take EPTs, so effectively yes.

I just thought of that when I got the email about you quoting me! Doh!

That said, I agree that actions/effects requiring a stress shouldn't be allowed on huge ships, like performing surge actions in Imperial Assault when you've reached your endurance limit.

Yeah I just don't see FFG letting people use a card that has a cost with it, that you don't actually pay.

I don't see it as us not paying the cost. We pay the squad points to equip it, pay the opportunity cost of using up that slot in stead of another, and use up our action to trigger it. Essentially the card has 4 areas of cost on a small or large ship, and only 3 on a huge ship. Think of it as discounted instead of free.

I think the decimator would be the worst ship to bring to epic. big fat target for turbos with no evade, no reinforce, nada. I think huge ships will just melt them.

Are you telling me you don't want to see 2-3 Decimators with Tie Fighters going against a CR-90 & X-wings? I think it would be a cool fight. Maybe a reason to take Single Turbo Lasers.

You never take Single Turbo Lasers. There are barely enough targets for your useless primary weapon.

I agree with that until the raider drops, then there will be a reason to take turbolasers. Also, with a deci on the field you will have something to shoot with that primary weapon. shuttles are decent targets too. I don't typically run a turbo at all, but if decimators try to make their way into epic, I think the turbolaser will shut that down quickly. If I knew my opponent was brining One, I would definately swap out a quad for a turbo

I don't see it as us not paying the cost.

Every ship you put it on, has to pay the same cost. Pay the squad points cost, pay the slot cost, pay the action cost, ect... What they also have to pay is the "cost" of getting a stress which is simply discarded on a Huge ship.

So it's not discounted, it's avoiding a cost that every other ship has to pay to use that same upgrade.

I don't see it as us not paying the cost.

Every ship you put it on, has to pay the same cost. Pay the squad points cost, pay the slot cost, pay the action cost, ect... What they also have to pay is the "cost" of getting a stress which is simply discarded on a Huge ship.

So it's not discounted, it's avoiding a cost that every other ship has to pay to use that same upgrade.

Completely false.

Farlander with PtL. He BENEFITS from having stress, that isn't a cost, that is a free offensive-only focus.

Fel with PtL. He also benefits from gaining stress. He gains a free focus token (and its even not as an action, so he can Focus himself for total 2 focus tokens).

Not every ship pays the same cost on abilities. Decimators with Expose only situationally pay the -1 Agi. Quite a few ships (in addition to those I've mentioned) benefit from getting stressed. Every upgrade interacts with different pilot skills and different upgrade layouts differently. They are not all equal and they never will be.

Can someone explain to me why Navigator is so overpowered on Epic ships? I am not following. The Navigator says "When you reveal a maneuver, you may rotate your dial to another maneuver with the same bearing. You cannot rotate to a red maneuver if you have any stress tokens." which doesn't seem overpowered to me.

Because Huge ships automatically destroy any small/large ship they overlap. If Huge ships had the option to change which way they were turning how fast they were moving after they saw where all the enemy ships went they could plow right through the priority targets with ease, and not even accumulate stress because, well, huge ship.

edited to fix. Navigator is not Boba Fett

The other reason I think Navigator is not allowed on Huge ships is the timing issue - because they activate after all Small and Large ships, the Navigator has a lot of information at his disposal, even against ships with higher Pilot Skill.

The Huge ships are meant to be ponderous, but a Navigator makes the a PS 3 GR-75 more responsive than a fleet of PS 7, 8, and 9 aces. That doesn't feel right.

You never take Single Turbo Lasers. There are barely enough targets for your useless primary weapon.

I agree with that until the raider drops, then there will be a reason to take turbolasers. Also, with a deci on the field you will have something to shoot with that primary weapon. shuttles are decent targets too. I don't typically run a turbo at all, but if decimators try to make their way into epic, I think the turbolaser will shut that down quickly. If I knew my opponent was brining One, I would definately swap out a quad for a turbo

I ran some tests in Vassal last night with dueling CR-90s and Raiders, and Single Turbolasers really dished out the pain.

A broadside from a corvette with three turbos and the main gun is absolutely devastating. Even with the reinforce action in play, the Raider's front section was always crippled by the time it got within range 3. From what I've seen, a turbo corvette is a hard counter for the Raider, and probably any huge ship not outfitted for that kind of a fight.

So, turbos have a theoretical role, but right now there are not many high-threat capital ships running around that require such a hard counter. And Turbos are very ineffective against most small ships, which are still the main threats on the board in almost every game. Until there is a capital ship that threatens small ships to a high degree, the single turbos are largely not worth the expense. But if the Raider ends up being that threat, then I suggest you take another look at those turbolaser cards.

Completely false.

Your post is so full of logical flaws... I'm not even sure where to start.

The fact that a given ship may actually benefit in some way from getting a stress in no way means they didn't pay the price the same as every other ship did. Just that they have an additional effect at play. It's also not like they don't have to deal with that stress in some way...

None of which is the same as a ship being able to ignore the cost of something.

So the fact that a ship may benefit from something that is normally seen as a negative doesn't actually change anything.

A cost is not inherently negative, it is simply something you must pay, but in the case of Huge ships is effectively a cost they don't have to actually consider.

Again, since this is a point that some just can't seem to grasp...

Balance is not the issue here, the fact that a upgrade having a cost that the ship in question can't per the rules actually have to pay is. Any comments about balance or the like are clearly missing the whole point I'm making.

If you could take a Navigator on a Huge, could you talk the slow speed to get the extra energy then simply use Navigator to go faster at no penalty with the added bonus of taking out a few fighters?

IMHO I don't think Navigator or Biggs should work on or for Huge/Epic ships. I don't get Gunner. Are you saying we can take and extra shot and not spend energy?

I don't get Gunner. Are you saying we can take and extra shot and not spend energy?

Yes, a extra primary attack which doesn't cost energy to use. At the cost of losing all other future attacks with that ship.

Completely false.

Your post is so full of logical flaws... I'm not even sure where to start.

The fact that a given ship may actually benefit in some way from getting a stress in no way means they didn't pay the price the same as every other ship did. Just that they have an additional effect at play. It's also not like they don't have to deal with that stress in some way...

None of which is the same as a ship being able to ignore the cost of something.

So the fact that a ship may benefit from something that is normally seen as a negative doesn't actually change anything.

A cost is not inherently negative, it is simply something you must pay, but in the case of Huge ships is effectively a cost they don't have to actually consider.

Again, since this is a point that some just can't seem to grasp...

Balance is not the issue here, the fact that a upgrade having a cost that the ship in question can't per the rules actually have to pay is. Any comments about balance or the like are clearly missing the whole point I'm making.

By that logic the Raider does pay the price. It gains a stress token. As a huge ship it has an additional effect (similar to Pilot Abilities) where it immediately discards any focus, evade, or stress tokens it receives.

There is pretty much no difference between Farlander treating the cost as a benefit and Huge ships having the ability to get rid of stress tokens immediately. They are both additional effects granted by the rules that modify the way they perceive certain tokens. In one case it is a benefit, in another it has the ability to discard it.

My post had nothing to do with balance so not sure why you felt the need to point that out.