Using the underdogs is the best way to learn.

I'm not convinced about this.

It's a matter of degree - how much of an underdog as opposed to sub-optimal is the list?

I come from a chess background, and watched too many people waste "learning" time/effort/energy playing on in lost positions after having effectively already lost the game in the opening.

For example, what you learn from jousting when you shouldn't (bad match-up) is who to joust with. Playing on having lost a ship or two is not useful.

I guess, for me, the key time to work out a strategy against a superior list is BEFORE the game, not at the table.

..

4) whilst there are lots of lists recognised as "optimal" or "meta" I simply don't believe the list is the be-all-and-end-all of the game. I'd happily back a great player given a "sub-optimal" list vs a poorer player with an "optimal" or "meta" defining one... (I actually think it'd make for a great sub-tournament to see players given a set list to fly thereby eliminating more variables, I bet the usual big tourney winning names would still be prevalent...)

I'd love an event like that. Five games over the day. Each one a scenario where you move to a table and play with a shop supplied (if you dont have the models yourself) game with set forces. Play each game twice if possible, once on either side.

Be really interesting to see. Well for me anyway.

Limited appeal im aware as you'd be appealing to people who are not heavily entrenched in one play style or faction or even ship.

One of my favorite examples of Optimal List Vs. Experienced player is my friend was just starting out in the tournament scene borrowing my stuff, His first tournament he ran a 4 x wing list and was doing really well unfortunately flown 2 of his full healthed xwings of the board. So i suggested running the popular fat han list, He went 2-2 with it. By no means is the Fat Han Auto win, but in the right hands it can do devastating things.

Using the underdogs is the best way to learn.

I'm not convinced about this.

It's a matter of degree - how much of an underdog as opposed to sub-optimal is the list?

I come from a chess background, and watched too many people waste "learning" time/effort/energy playing on in lost positions after having effectively already lost the game in the opening.

For example, what you learn from jousting when you shouldn't (bad match-up) is who to joust with. Playing on having lost a ship or two is not useful.

I guess, for me, the key time to work out a strategy against a superior list is BEFORE the game, not at the table.

1) I don't find detailed strategy planning in advance to be all that useful in miniatures wargaming. Sure, you can have a general idea what role you want your ships to play, but your opponent's force and the layout of the board change drastically from game to game, making any chess-level planning all but useless. More important is the ability to adapt to changing situations. Which brings me to...

2) Playing with a sub-optimal list (like the 4 A-wing list I mentioned in my previous reply) will help you to adapt and survive when things don't go according to plan with your competitive list. Example: I'm currently running a Dash + 2 A-Wings list (Jake and a Green). If Dash somehow gets vaped early on, all is not lost since I'm used to flying my A-Wings by themselves.

been doing OK with a XXXX list recently, the astromechs really help.

Garvin

Tarn R7

Rookie R3-A2

Rookie R5-P9

I have done really well with this list lately, but you have to spread your arcs out against certain enemies, but I am 5-0 with it currently.

I was wondering how some of the lower PS X-wing pilots would do with good astromechs. I was thinking of doing something with them. Thanks for trying it out for me!

Yeah, people seem to forget that you have to spread out your firing arcs vs. arc dodgers. They just say that X-wings are "broken".

Using the underdogs is the best way to learn.

I'm not convinced about this.

It's a matter of degree - how much of an underdog as opposed to sub-optimal is the list?

I come from a chess background, and watched too many people waste "learning" time/effort/energy playing on in lost positions after having effectively already lost the game in the opening.

For example, what you learn from jousting when you shouldn't (bad match-up) is who to joust with. Playing on having lost a ship or two is not useful.

I guess, for me, the key time to work out a strategy against a superior list is BEFORE the game, not at the table.

1) I don't find detailed strategy planning in advance to be all that useful in miniatures wargaming. Sure, you can have a general idea what role you want your ships to play, but your opponent's force and the layout of the board change drastically from game to game, making any chess-level planning all but useless. More important is the ability to adapt to changing situations. Which brings me to...

2) Playing with a sub-optimal list (like the 4 A-wing list I mentioned in my previous reply) will help you to adapt and survive when things don't go according to plan with your competitive list. Example: I'm currently running a Dash + 2 A-Wings list (Jake and a Green). If Dash somehow gets vaped early on, all is not lost since I'm used to flying my A-Wings by themselves.

Have you seen the final at Worlds, this year's or last year's? Have you seen Paul Heaver's write-ups?

Usually in X-wing games you engage in your 2nd or 3rd round. That means you have 2 or 3 sets of movements you do with all your ships before you attack, where your primary objective is to get an engagement that favours you over your opponent.

Sure, you can do that on the fly, turn by turn, but you'll possibly be stuck in a position where your enemy forces you on asteroids, or forces your arcs to be spread out, etc. A better way is to devise a general strategy on your first turn, to account for those 2-3 movements. And the best way is to have a general plan (asteroids, initial position, first few movements) devised before the tournament and a way to modify it to account for different opposing lists, this is what wins you championships.

been doing OK with a XXXX list recently, the astromechs really help.

I'll admit I was really considering taking a Fat Han & Corran list to the store champ next month. It's a semi-fromage list. But when playing a serious tournament I felt it was justified.

But I never really was completely happy with it, so thanks to your post I'm working on a XXXX list myself that I think I'll take instead. May not do as well but... I just Love X-Wings.