This came up while theorycrafting with my cousin last night.

If you have a ship with Intimidation touching an enemy ship with an Agility higher than 0, and that ship is shot by a Single Turbo Laser, what would the effective Agility of the ship be for that attack?

Let's hay we have an A-Wing with Intimidation touching a Firespray, and a Corvette firing at it with a Single Turbo Laser.

Does the basic math principle take effect resolving the multiplication first, resulting in Agility 3?

Or does the attacker get to resolve Intimidation first, resulting in Agility 2? And why does he get to resolve Intimidation first? Can he apply the abiltiy to resolve two effets in any order he whishes? After all one effect is ongoing and one is triggering due to the attack?

I am curious to hear your arguments as to which way you would rule it, and why.

You would apply the Intimidation first as that actually modifies agility for the entire time that the two ships are touching. The target ship's agility was already set when you declared it as a target.

Intimidation kicks in the moment you make contact and remain touching, so as long as the A-wing is touching the Firespray, the Firespray is Agility 1. Single Turbo Laser shot doubles it to 2.

Side Note: I just realised that makes the Single Turbo Laser fairly lame when firing at anything with a half decent agility.

Side Note: I just realised that makes the Single Turbo Laser fairly lame when firing at anything with a half decent agility.

That's because the ships with half decent agility are so small they're evading your turbolasers.

And why, even after intensifying the forward batteries, you can't stop a single A-wing!

You'll have to destroy them ship to ship.

[groan] I've unleashed the quotes...

I hate to be a party pooper here, but we don't actually have rules for "first effect gets applied first". We don't have any general rules for resolving multiple effects that change the same thing, except for PS (most recent wins) and maneuver color change (more difficult wins).

So the few rules we have which cover resolving combination effects actually contradict the "first effect is applied first" idea. Effects are just effects, they all apply simultaneously regardless of when they came into effect, and are resolved as such.

So it could be first-effect-goes-first. Could also be standard PEMDAS mathematical order of operations. There's nothing in the rules that says one way or another. Should probably wing this one off to FFG.

I hate to be a party pooper here, but we don't actually have rules for "first effect gets applied first". We don't have any general rules for resolving multiple effects that change the same thing, except for PS (most recent wins) and maneuver color change (more difficult wins).

So the few rules we have which cover resolving combination effects actually contradict the "first effect is applied first" idea. Effects are just effects, they all apply simultaneously regardless of when they came into effect, and are resolved as such.

So it could be first-effect-goes-first. Could also be standard PEMDAS mathematical order of operations. There's nothing in the rules that says one way or another. Should probably wing this one off to FFG.

I don't see this as a "which effect goes first?" sort of deal. As soon as the A-wing moves and overlaps, it's Intimidation comes into effect. When the Corvette takes it's turbo laser shot, Intimidation is still in effect. The card's wording is "While you are touching..." and that state hasn't changed from the Activation phase to the Combat phase.

If you apply the PS logic (most recent wins), the most recent change to the agility value is from Intimidation, therefore I think you must apply the math to the Firespray's current state.

I think you must apply the math to the Firespray's current state.

But the current state includes both effects. There really isn't a concept of "This was in effect when I got here," there's just two effects. If it was just "This was in effect when I got here" then neither the PS or maneuver difficulty ruling would hold - they'd both simply be "It was red when I got here, now I turned it green".

The only way either ruling makes sense is if all the effects are active in a simultaneous state, and you resolve those concurrent effects according to some system. In one case it's by checking the timing of the effect, and in the other it's by comparing the results.

I Have to agre with Parravon.

The way I see it, we don't have any rules or rulings that we can apply to this scenario, and get a consistent result. We can probably all agree that the rules should alwais yield a consistent result.

If that is to happen, we can't use the first ruling in the FAQ section 4, stating that you can resolve abilities in an order of your choosing, because changing the order of resolution would yield different results. Imagine that the defender had +1 Agility from a Stealth Device instead of -1 Agility from Intimidation. Now it would be beneficial for the attacker to resolve the multiplier before the Stealth Device. But the ruling that players resolve abilities that happen at the same time in Initiative order, means that it would yeild different results depending on who has initative.

And as for the PS ruling that only applies to abilities that sets a fixed value.

To get a consistent result you either have to resolve the multiplication either before or after all effects that add or subtract Agility. But we do not have a ruling that realy supports this.

On increasing and Reducing values page 8 it says ignore any "minimum of 0" until the calculation is complete. however that is mainly for addition and subtraction. With multiplication such as doubling IMHO it would be more feasible to apply those effects last. However some might point out order of operations are to multiply first. As for single turbolaser upgrade card it just says double defender's agility value, it doesn't say before or after modifiers.

What about 3 A wings with Intimidation touching the one target lets say a Defender does it have 0 agility now and the STL can blow it into another universe If so in need 2 more Decimators

The only fixed order is that the player with Initiative would resolve first. Since the player imposing Intimidation and the player firing the Turbolaser is the same player, he should get to choose the order in which the effects resolve, no?

Edit - This becomes more difficult in 3+ player games, where the one doing Intimidation might not be the one firing the Turbolaser, in which case Initiative should resolve the order.

in either case, the rules state if 2 effects happen simultaneously, then the controlling player chooses the order.

But are they happening simultaneously? Intimidation comes into effect as soon as an overlap is resolved during the Activation phase. Shooting happens during the Combat phase. As far as I can see, the Firespray should have reduced agility going into the Combat phase.

As far as I can see, the Firespray should have reduced agility going into the Combat phase.

It's never really spelled out clearly, but I don't think this is how math works in X-wing.

Effects are either in play or they aren't. A game value (like agility) at any given time is the base value plus whatever active effects modify it. Wedge (or Intimidation, or Expose) don't set the value down a point at a certain time, and then set it back to the original value at a later point. Rather, the conditions for the ability is met, so the effect is active. As soon as the conditions stop being met, the effect is removed.

If you try and treat effects as a sort of set/reset, I think you run into all sorts of problems, mainly around the reset. What do you reset the value to? The base? What the value was when the effect came into being? If ships A and B both have Intimidation, and both end touching the Firespray, what is the agility by the time B gets done with it? Zero, clearly (the new effect stage is easy). But what happens if I destroy A? What does the agility become now? It was 1 when B got there to change it to zero, but B has no idea what the base is. Do you just reverse the math and hope for the best? How does that work when you hit the zero limit?

Considering all overlapping effects handles all this, and is clean and clear (or will be as soon as they define the order). I'm not sure if the initiative/owner chooses order apply to resolving multiple ongoing effects. It doesn't seem like it should, because as this example shows, the ordering can become highly variable in different situations, possibly including different results based on who's attacking - and that's very, very bad.

As far as I can see, the Firespray should have reduced agility going into the Combat phase.

It's never really spelled out clearly, but I don't think this is how math works in X-wing.

Effects are either in play or they aren't. A game value (like agility) at any given time is the base value plus whatever active effects modify it. Wedge (or Intimidation, or Expose) don't set the value down a point at a certain time, and then set it back to the original value at a later point. Rather, the conditions for the ability is met, so the effect is active. As soon as the conditions stop being met, the effect is removed.

Which is my point. Intimidation's card text says "while you are touching...", so as long as the Intimidation ship is touching the Firespray, the effect is active, is it not? When the CR90 takes its shot, the effect is surely still active. This isn't a simultaneous effect. It's a matter of timing.

As for your A and B example, each ship is only applying a -1 modifier, so if A gets destroyed that's only one less modifier to whatever the agility was to start with. I don't see this being as difficult as you seem to be making it.

Which is my point. Intimidation's card text says "while you are touching...", so as long as the Intimidation ship is touching the Firespray, the effect is active, is it not? When the CR90 takes its shot, the effect is surely still active

I agree that both are active at that point. The question is how you resolve those effects. You're wanting to do it chronologically - Intimidation got their first, so that set the value that the Turbolaser sees. But we have at least two counterexamples that show you have to consider the entire pile of effects as a whole, and the effects can have their results changes based on other effects in the pile. Every indication of priority that we have says you consider the effects in relation to each other, not just in the order they arrive.

This isn't a simultaneous effect. It's a matter of timing.

I'm not sure of that. From the FAQ:

Q: If both players have effects that resolve at the same time (or from the same trigger), which player resolves their abilities first?

A: The player with initiative resolves all abilities he would like to resolve, then the other player resolves all abilities he would like to resolve as described on page 16 in the core rulebook.

Emphasis in bold is mine. There are two distinct elements there. You're saying it's not simultaneous because they have different triggers (with the implication that the simultaneous timing resolution will only come into play based on a given trigger), but there's clearly a separate category there.

Nevermind. I'm not up to wading into this today.

If my opponent and I both have a card that says "At the start of the Combat phase..." then clearly that's a simultaneous trigger, but Intimidation comes into play during movement and doesn't have the same trigger point. How can it not be a timing issue?

That particular Q&A from the FAQ is irrelevant here, because Intimidation has triggered and been resolved before the Combat phase, and the ensuing Turbolaser shot.

I'm saying it's not simultaneous because they have different triggers and different resolution timing. The only thing to be resolved is the Turbolaser shot.

If the scenario were slightly different and the Firespray had a Stealth Device, would it be any different? Would you say that is still simultaneous? Stealth Device has triggered the moment the ship is put on the table at the start of the game. Would the Turbolaser get to double the base agility, and then the Firespray adds 1 for the Stealth Device? I'm sure every Stealthy Firespray pilot would argue that they start at Agility 3 for the calculations as the agility increase is in effect for as long as it's conditions are met.

because Intimidation has triggered and been resolved

Intimidation has not been resolved. It doesn't trigger when the ship touches then resolve and vanish - it's active as long as the condition (touching) is met. It's constantly being resolved for the entire time that it's active, any time you have to check the value of the ship's agility. You're thinking of it as something that activates and is done, but it's not - there's a whole pile of effects there that you have to combine to resolve.

If the scenario were slightly different and the Firespray had a Stealth Device, would it be any different? Would you say that is still simultaneous? Stealth Device has triggered the moment the ship is put on the table at the start of the game. Would the Turbolaser get to double the base agility, and then the Firespray adds 1 for the Stealth Device?

No, it wouldn't be any different, and yes, it is simultaneous. "Resolving" an ongoing effect is undefined, but IMHO it basically means any time you have to check the value, the ability gets resolved by working through all the effects. The way those effects are resolved should be well defined and consistent, and considers the effects in play regardless of which came into being first. In this case, they need to define how the math works.

I'm sure every Stealthy Firespray pilot would argue that they start at Agility 3 for the calculations as the agility increase is in effect for as long as it's conditions are met.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, because wouldn't this be exactly the same result your preferred method would give? The Stealth Device comes into play first, so when the Turbolaser fires it's 3 agility, doubled to 6?

<shrug> I think we're just going to have to leave this one for FFG.

I guess there's two distinct lines of logic being applied here, and surely one must be correct. So, who has emailed FFG with it?