I am excited about Auto Thrusters because the Interceptors needed a buff vs the turret heavy meta. However, the little Range 3 catch all part kinda ruffles my feathers because it does nerf any ship taking a Range 3 shot at another ship equipped with AT. I'm sure that AT could have been done specifically for weapons firing out of arc, but since it's already on its way, I'm over it and gladly accept it so my pool of Interceptors can wreck shop during league matches.

AT did need a more general benefit due to there being only five ships with turrets and only 3 of them being actual problems (well, 2.5 for the YT-2400)

2 points don't seem like much until you get to list building and then it's an integral thing to consider. Without the range 3 benefit, it'd basically have to be 0 points (though eating up a mod slot would still bite when it only works on such a tiny % of available ships).

Currently yes it feels like AT would be viable just as an anti-turret mechanisms because you see the 3 fatties freaking everywhere, but FFG has to plan ahead.

That is a very optimistic view, one which I definitely agree with.

Yay, I'm not the only person who calls it a Mango cannon.

I'll start with this.

Rebels won the last two World Championships.

Didn't Paul Heaver win both? So maybe it was just him being a badass, as opposed to Rebels being OP.

Paul Heaver is a badass, but if the rebels are a lose button like the OP's trying to paint them as he'd not have beaten his equally badass competitors.

I'm sure that AT could have been done specifically for weapons firing out of arc

Would have been bad game design. The way it's set up it's a soft counter, not a hard one. It's not a dud if no turrets show up.

Apparently, sarcasm can't be read.

Also, the Empire is a legitimate government. Sheev Palpatine was elected, and given executive powers for the "duration of the crisis". No one is saying they aren't corrupt and bigoted, but you "Rebel Scum" ARE taking up arms against a sovereign nation. Terrorists, every sodding one of you

Hitler rose to legitimate power too. Heck, the original settlers in the US rebelled against Britain, and formed their own legitimate government by taking up arms against their oppressors.

(edit because point has already been made and I overlooked it).

But while they were labeled as traitors, they did still rise to become a superpower.

I'm surprised no one invoked Godwin's law here to just end this thread. Lol.

Well from what I can see, AT doesn't mean you "never hit" with turrets. It just means you need to change your style of flying away from "I don't care what direction I face so long as I don't fly off the table" to "Maybe I should point my nose at the guy so he doesn't get a free evade".

Or even "I'll use the Turret against ships that DON'T have ATs equipped, while my support fighters go after the AT ship(s)".

What's that? You don't have support fighters? Maybe you should design a list that actually involves more than two dials then, and suck it up. New releases are made, and old squad builds become obsolete. Who the hell plays XXX like it's Wave 1 any more? Nobody.

Oh, and you know the Decimator that recently made something like 9 of the top 16 lists in the Indonesian Champs? Guess what gun that uses? A turret. So suddenly it has to contend with Squints, Starvipers, and all the other Fighters that are apparently "immune" to it. Should I complain about how one of our newest ships just got made obsolete, or man up and build a list that functions?

I fly XXX, XXXZ. It's not as dead as people say it is. Considering your argument is supposed to prove that Rebels should not rely on turrets, you only weaken your own position by stating its largest pool of pilots and ships are obsolete.

I am excited about Auto Thrusters because the Interceptors needed a buff vs the turret heavy meta. However, the little Range 3 catch all part kinda ruffles my feathers because it does nerf any ship taking a Range 3 shot at another ship equipped with AT. I'm sure that AT could have been done specifically for weapons firing out of arc, but since it's already on its way, I'm over it and gladly accept it so my pool of Interceptors can wreck shop during league matches.

Something FF has noticed: people don't take upgrades for situations that rarely come up. Predator, for instance, is mainly there to whack low PS ships, but has a benefit when firing on _any_ ship. If Deadeye allowed you to spend a focus token to reroll a die- on any attack- in addition to its other properties, it would see a lot more play.

Something else to consider: the reason so many people are more excited about the Squint + AT than the A-Wing + AT is that the Squint can equip AT + stealth device. That means the average Autothruster will cost 7 points, not 5.

Having said that, I kinda wish the anti-turret part of AT had been built into Boost from the beginning. But it's too late now.

Would have been bad game design. The way it's set up it's a soft counter, not a hard one. It's not a dud if no turrets show up.

While true, it is certainly not worth 2 points for single evade at range 3. So it is a handicap if your opponent has no turrets, but a huge boost if they do have turrets.

While its far from 90% of the board, there are a few Imperial Fanboys on this forum that do make me go "Really dude?" on occasion

Expressing a dislike of 360 turrets R1-3 doesn't actually make someone an "Imperial Fanboy." They could favour any faction, including Rebels. You can fly eight out of the nine rebel ships without using such a turret.

I think it's odd that the OP is letting people he has never met ruin the game for him.

Would have been bad game design. The way it's set up it's a soft counter, not a hard one. It's not a dud if no turrets show up.

While true, it is certainly not worth 2 points for single evade at range 3. So it is a handicap if your opponent has no turrets, but a huge boost if they do have turrets.

Turning a blank into an evade makes Range 3 effectively give you a free evade token rather than an extra die. Four dice and a blank to a focus: I wouldn't underestimate that long range sniping power, especially against Y or B-wings.

I think it's odd that the OP is letting people he has never met ruin the frame for him.

Sounds to me like the OP is a little too fond of the YT-1300 and is flipping out at more counters to it being added.

Thanks for your reply Bob, Majorjuggler. I am reviewing to find the datestamp. I seem to remember it pretty well as it was a conversation about AT, but I will try to find it.

From a listener perspective most the anti rebel attitude on the show is from YT 2400 being common in tournaments now. Flavor of the month. No one seems complains about phantoms which are the reason for the 2400 being a staple in tournaments. There is no real rebel hypermobile high PS ship to arc dodge phantoms. Corran with VI and AS is the only real one I have found. Your analysis is very inetersting, even if I don't always follow the math. However it still seems that your understating the importance of a turrent nerf on rebel ships.

One potential fix to the upcoming Rebel funk is an X wing revamp. The X Wing is overpriced and not maneuverable compared to advanced phantoms and interceptors which will rule the meta very soon. Vader had a similar ithough more serious ssue in the advanced with top tier pilot ability in a bottom of the offensive charts ship.

TIE Pilot, thank you for a well articulated out reply. I disagree with your assertions but its one of few "Fanboy" imperial replies that is thought out.

Kryn007 your the exact person aka "Fanboy" I am criticizing in regards to your attitude that the game needs to suit your play style or hit the road. Internet tough guy with no intelligent replies strikes again. Looking at your history of posts its non stop derogatory attacks on rebels specifically turreted rebel ships.

Many on Nova radio and on this site claim to have come over from WH40K. I never played, but understand it has serious power creep. Some factions making others mostly irrelevant. Players from 40k seem to resent this. I am getting the sense that a large chunk of my investment in X wing is heading the same way.

I should clarify I play in local tournaments but am a casual player. So my view is from the casual play side.

Would have been bad game design. The way it's set up it's a soft counter, not a hard one. It's not a dud if no turrets show up.

While true, it is certainly not worth 2 points for single evade at range 3. So it is a handicap if your opponent has no turrets, but a huge boost if they do have turrets.

Oui

It's obviously a turret counter, but having even a seemingly situational benefit gives it a more general application. How useful that becomes is up to the player, but the fact that they have the option is absolutely vital to making it an interesting upgrade, imo.

Though I'll only ever use one auto-thruster ship at a time, I can tell you I'm in love with thrusters even when they're not making turrets cry. There aren't many times when I can look at my green dice, smile, and say "no, you don't get to kill X, not today."

Plus, it's also a nice counter-point to secondary weapons (especially cannons) that would otherwise give you no benefit from being at range 3.

Yay, I'm not the only person who calls it a Mango cannon.

Yeah, its a great change making a cool cannon sound like a piece of fruit...

People need to stop with the stupid name changes.. seriously.. just stop..

I must admit... to get to the thread topic.. this thread does crack me up... another "sky is falling" thread... lol

Between premature panic button and anticipated butt-hurt, this thread has it all.

RoV

I will very softly agree that the Rebels are in need of a bit of help. For a long time, Tie Advanced, A-Wings, Y-Wings, X-Wings, and Tie Interceptors have needed help. E-Wings and Tie Defenders have needed help since they were rolled out.

The fact that the Squint and X-Wing needed help wasn't really obvious until the Z-95 came out and the Fat Han build was popularized.

So in the last 6 months, we've seen fixes or announcement of buffs for:

Squints

A-Wings

Tie Advanced

Y-Wings

So: what does that leave to be buffed?

2 Rebel ships, and 1 Imperial ship.

Moreover: the Rebel ships that haven't been buffed have been slightly nerfed.

I'm not saying the sky is falling. Rebels have a lot of good options. I love that I'm seeing the 5A build become a thing! But there's a reason Rebel Turrets have been a mainstay for so long. Turrets answer a question the Rebels need to answer. I'm not sure how to build a Rebel list that counters Whisper _and_ Fel. That's a bit unsettling. I'm sure we can figure something out, though. Maybe WartHorton with Bombs...

You forgot TIE bomber from your list (they all but announced they were doing that one at Worlds)

Yay, I'm not the only person who calls it a Mango cannon.

Yeah, its a great change making a cool cannon sound like a piece of fruit...

People need to stop with the stupid name changes.. seriously.. just stop..

It would seem that the good bomber, much like the good Baron and Tie fighters of the court, does not enjoy tropical fruit

Yay, I'm not the only person who calls it a Mango cannon.

Yeah, its a great change making a cool cannon sound like a piece of fruit...

People need to stop with the stupid name changes.. seriously.. just stop..

It would seem that the good bomber, much like the good Baron and Tie fighters of the court, does not enjoy tropical fruit

Alergic actually.. lol.. I just like the actual name personally. I also find unimaginitive 'renames' unfulfilling..

The grenades in the Second World War were called pineapples. Fruit-based ordnance is dangerous.

The store championship tournament in Toronto that I was at today had 14 players with Rebel lists and 2 Imperial (both using Decimator/Phantom builds if I'm remembering them correctly).

Draw what conclusions you will.

Yay, I'm not the only person who calls it a Mango cannon.

Yeah, its a great change making a cool cannon sound like a piece of fruit...

People need to stop with the stupid name changes.. seriously.. just stop..

It would seem that the good bomber, much like the good Baron and Tie fighters of the court, does not enjoy tropical fruit

Alergic actually.. lol.. I just like the actual name personally. I also find unimaginitive 'renames' unfulfilling..

Playing terminology police makes you no better than the Empire, and if you choose to interpret that comparison as a good thing you need to get your head checked.

And the modern ones called 'baseballs' .. I did find the use of pineapple amusing as well.. they are much smaller than the actual fruit.. lol

Wait... is someone going to start on about breakfast now... hehehehe

Yay, I'm not the only person who calls it a Mango cannon.

Yeah, its a great change making a cool cannon sound like a piece of fruit...

People need to stop with the stupid name changes.. seriously.. just stop..

It would seem that the good bomber, much like the good Baron and Tie fighters of the court, does not enjoy tropical fruit

Alergic actually.. lol.. I just like the actual name personally. I also find unimaginitive 'renames' unfulfilling..

Playing terminology police makes you no better than the Empire, and if you choose to interpret that comparison as a good thing you need to get your head checked.

Maybe making a personal jab at someone should be better, and more thought out... I dislike the use of names that are stupid... also.. the Empire is the ruling party of this ficticious universe.. the rebels are actually terrorists..

Just some perspective... I fly mostly imperial because I like the ships.. dont pretend to know who I am from a few posts.. you really have no idea of who I am.

To be fair, the Mangler-->Mango change wasn't immortalized because it just sounds silly

Way back in the scum previews, we were all scurrying around trying to figure out what the obscured cards had written on them.

The Mangler Cannon was cut off to Mang-, leading many to speculate at what exactly the card could be. Sure enough, someone suggested that Mangos were somehow a part of Scum's horrible, villainous arsenal.

Then along game a picture of the intimidating fire-spray, roaring through space and unleashing massive, faintly orange projectiles through the barrels of its massive, apparently wooden cannons.

In honor of the many luls that were had that day, the Mango Cannon was born.

Thanks for your reply Bob, Majorjuggler. I am reviewing to find the datestamp. I seem to remember it pretty well as it was a conversation about AT, but I will try to find it.

You're welcome, and thanks again for listening! When you find it, also make note of the episode number as well - I can't recall offhand which one it was, but I have them all downloaded.

I think the developers are doing the best job that they have with the tools they have. There has been some variance in the effectiveness of the ships on release in each of the waves, so some ships are better than others "out of the box". The developers approach is to then "patch" the game by buffing ships piecemeal through upgrades. Ideally we would have perfectly balanced ships from the start, but judging by history that's not really a realistic expectation. However, hopefully we will eventually get to the point where all of the ships are useful in some reasonable capacity. Until we get there, every change will cause ripples through the game balance, as the new game elements and patchwork of balance tweaks get digested.

Again, this change doesn't alter how turrets play out against any wave 1-5 ship except for TIE Interceptors (and technically A-wings, but those are already so defensive that Autothrusters sees much less utility here). Unless TIE Interceptors suddenly come in and dominate the meta, turrets will continue to be very viable. In general Fat Turrets are probably on the side of too powerful right now anyway. The flip side to this: if more of the basic ships (both Rebel and Imperial) were priced better for their capabilities, then you would see less turret use anyway. I'm hoping that is the direction the game will take long term: better balance between all of the ships. Right now it's time for the TIE Interceptor to get it's much-needed nudge. Hopefully the X-wing will follow. The developers have stated that they are aware of it.

Yeah, I know Ed and Chad have played 40k. I have heard of the game and know a couple people that have played, but never got into it myself. X-wing is the first miniatures game that I have bought into. For what it is worth, if you are just into more casual games, then you may like trying out some of my House Rules I linked to above. It does a reasonable job at making some of the less-loved ships and pilots more competitive. It's nice to be able to play a wider variety of lists for casual play and actually have them be useful.

Thanks for your reply Bob. Look forward to hearing more of all of Nova squad on the show.

This post is a result of a build of frustration for the last month or so. I hope your assessment of the game having greater variety is the path followed. I play casual and always try to play a different list each game for fun myself.

The grenades in the Second World War were called pineapples. Fruit-based ordnance is dangerous.

Thankfully there is a solution to homicidal maniacs brandishing bananas and other deadly weapons.