Turrets are OP against everything that isn't a phantom

This is just flat out wrong. Fly a Tie Fighter Swarm of 7 with Howlrunner against that turret and see what happens.

Swarm Kills Turrets

Turrets kills Maneuverability

Maneuverability Kills Swarm

This has always been the Paper Rock Scissors of X-Wing, and honestly should always be. However we dont get ultimate wins from one to the other we can have a swarm beat maneuverability and so forth but never moving to far from these lines. We are in this Phantom Vs Falcone Meta because we have moved a little to far from these lines. The Phantom has a decent chance to kill the Turrets but has numbers closer to 50/50. So while the Phantom is getting a good chance at killing the Turrets they still kill the Swarm and have left them out looking in. So now we are going to push this even further by making another Maneuverable ship past the line with the Interceptor. Although I dont mind the upgrade this will not bring balance to the game. If you want balance to come back you have to strenghthen the other peice to allow it to rise.

With both the Phantom and Interceptor being the best manueverable ships in the game the Empire have locked into a strong theme for how they operate in the game. Turrets were the way to handle this problem and that is why you saw so many over the last 9months. After Autothrusters comes out the Empire will not only have the best manueverable ships but the best Turret as well in the Decimator. That is the only problem I see in the coming meta. The empire will be fighting the empire while, the Scum and Rebels fight over the scraps.

1.) The Empire's theme has been mobility since the core set

2.) How is the VT-49 objectively the best turret (aside from looking the coolest)?

The combined 16 hull might look more impressive than a Falcon's 13, but the combination C3PO, Falcon Title, and even the single innate green die will cancel far more damage than the VT could hope to. Add in a superior dial and very powerful rebel crew, and the only advantages a Decimator really has is in stress infliction and having the Phantom as a wing man.

Also, if I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors I'd play rock-paper-scissors

If we're deciding games by lists rather than actually playing, then either FFG or one of the players really dun goofed

Come on, guys. Less doom, more being inspired by this: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/133055-championship-a-wing-list/

I don't think X-wings are that bad. You just have to be smart when you play with them.

With both the Phantom and Interceptor being the best manueverable ships in the game the Empire have locked into a strong theme for how they operate in the game. Turrets were the way to handle this problem and that is why you saw so many over the last 9months. After Autothrusters comes out the Empire will not only have the best manueverable ships but the best Turret as well in the Decimator. That is the only problem I see in the coming meta. The empire will be fighting the empire while, the Scum and Rebels fight over the scraps.

1.) The Empire's theme has been mobility since the core set

2.) How is the VT-49 objectively the best turret (aside from looking the coolest)?

The combined 16 hull might look more impressive than a Falcon's 13, but the combination C3PO, Falcon Title, and even the single innate green die will cancel far more damage than the VT could hope to. Add in a superior dial and very powerful rebel crew, and the only advantages a Decimator really has is in stress infliction and having the Phantom as a wing man.

Also, if I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors I'd play rock-paper-scissors

If we're deciding games by lists rather than actually playing, than either FFG or one of the players really dun goofed

Come on, guys. Less doom, more being inspired by this: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/133055-championship-a-wing-list/

Well the Decimator is not stronger than the Falcon, you are right about that, just imperial lists are right now already winning a ton of Events if you look at listjuggler and such sites. And a lot of them are playing Kenkirk or Chiraneau.

Just a small anecdote here, do not take it as a mirror of the current meta however:

I played a tournament just yesterday and the best rebel player made 7th place out of 16. I made 3rd with Whisper/Chiraneau, 2nd was Kenkirk/Soontir Fel (so much for unplayable against turrets without AT since the tournament was bristling with them), first place was Whisper/5AP.

I beat 2 Dash Rendar lists on the way and my only loss was to 2nd place (well green dice are fickle i guess... 11/12 Blanks on Whisper defense that game). I feel that i could have won the game pretty easily without that. I always felt in control with my list honestly and i don't have that on Han/Corran these days.

Why is Decimator/Phantom superior to HAN builds? Well because of the Phantom i think. There is just no other ship to run with the big turret for 40 points like a Phantom. Not even Corran comes close to it i feel. And as you see Soontir to play along is also really good, even now!

Also fickle, mobility has been the Empire's theme, yes. But now they get it and can abuse it with impunity, while Rebels get no compensation for it!

I don't think X-wings are that bad. You just have to be smart when you play with them.

No actually being smart is not enough... You would need to cheat to make the **** bricks move better, but i guess that's against the code of conduct for players...

With both the Phantom and Interceptor being the best manueverable ships in the game the Empire have locked into a strong theme for how they operate in the game. Turrets were the way to handle this problem and that is why you saw so many over the last 9months. After Autothrusters comes out the Empire will not only have the best manueverable ships but the best Turret as well in the Decimator. That is the only problem I see in the coming meta. The empire will be fighting the empire while, the Scum and Rebels fight over the scraps.

1.) The Empire's theme has been mobility since the core set

2.) How is the VT-49 objectively the best turret (aside from looking the coolest)?

The combined 16 hull might look more impressive than a Falcon's 13, but the combination C3PO, Falcon Title, and even the single innate green die will cancel far more damage than the VT could hope to. Add in a superior dial and very powerful rebel crew, and the only advantages a Decimator really has is in stress infliction and having the Phantom as a wing man.

Also, if I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors I'd play rock-paper-scissors

If we're deciding games by lists rather than actually playing, then either FFG or one of the players really dun goofed

Come on, guys. Less doom, more being inspired by this: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/133055-championship-a-wing-list/

Once Autothrusters are out the VT-49 will be the Only turret able to have a Vader Crew to stop Sontir Fel. That will make it the best turret in the game.

Turrets are OP against everything that isn't a phantom

This is just flat out wrong. Fly a Tie Fighter Swarm of 7 with Howlrunner against that turret and see what happens.

Swarm Kills Turrets

Turrets kills Maneuverability

Maneuverability Kills Swarm

This has always been the Paper Rock Scissors of X-Wing, and honestly should always be. However we dont get ultimate wins from one to the other we can have a swarm beat maneuverability and so forth but never moving to far from these lines. We are in this Phantom Vs Falcone Meta because we have moved a little to far from these lines. The Phantom has a decent chance to kill the Turrets but has numbers closer to 50/50. So while the Phantom is getting a good chance at killing the Turrets they still kill the Swarm and have left them out looking in. So now we are going to push this even further by making another Maneuverable ship past the line with the Interceptor. Although I dont mind the upgrade this will not bring balance to the game. If you want balance to come back you have to strenghthen the other peice to allow it to rise.

True, Swarm does kill turret.

I kinda disagree on the rock paper scissors thing, I personally can't wait till I can field my ceptors again and have them have a chance of surviving a YT encounter.

With both the Phantom and Interceptor being the best manueverable ships in the game the Empire have locked into a strong theme for how they operate in the game. Turrets were the way to handle this problem and that is why you saw so many over the last 9months. After Autothrusters comes out the Empire will not only have the best manueverable ships but the best Turret as well in the Decimator. That is the only problem I see in the coming meta. The empire will be fighting the empire while, the Scum and Rebels fight over the scraps.

1.) The Empire's theme has been mobility since the core set

2.) How is the VT-49 objectively the best turret (aside from looking the coolest)?

The combined 16 hull might look more impressive than a Falcon's 13, but the combination C3PO, Falcon Title, and even the single innate green die will cancel far more damage than the VT could hope to. Add in a superior dial and very powerful rebel crew, and the only advantages a Decimator really has is in stress infliction and having the Phantom as a wing man.

Also, if I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors I'd play rock-paper-scissors

If we're deciding games by lists rather than actually playing, than either FFG or one of the players really dun goofed

Come on, guys. Less doom, more being inspired by this: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/133055-championship-a-wing-list/

Well the Decimator is not stronger than the Falcon, you are right about that, just imperial lists are right now already winning a ton of Events if you look at listjuggler and such sites. And a lot of them are playing Kenkirk or Chiraneau.

Just a small anecdote here, do not take it as a mirror of the current meta however:

I played a tournament just yesterday and the best rebel player made 7th place out of 16. I made 3rd with Whisper/Chiraneau, 2nd was Kenkirk/Soontir Fel (so much for unplayable against turrets without AT since the tournament was bristling with them), first place was Whisper/5AP.

I beat 2 Dash Rendar lists on the way and my only loss was to 2nd place (well green dice are fickle i guess... 11/12 Blanks on Whisper defense that game). I feel that i could have won the game pretty easily without that. I always felt in control with my list honestly and i don't have that on Han/Corran these days.

Why is Decimator/Phantom superior to HAN builds? Well because of the Phantom i think. There is just no other ship to run with the big turret for 40 points like a Phantom. Not even Corran comes close to it i feel. And as you see Soontir to play along is also really good, even now!

Also fickle, mobility has been the Empire's theme, yes. But now they get it and can abuse it with impunity, while Rebels get no compensation for it!

Ouch

Last Sunday saw rebels take 2nd place (2 Fringers w/HLC & Int Agent, Blue Squadron w/FCS) down from Chiraneau & four academies

These players, especially the 2nd place Fringer player, are definitely the top rung of my local group but there were phantoms aplenty to halt their progress.

Otherwise, I do think you're right that Phantom + VT is the list to beat (**** is the most common so far) but it's not really the VT or the Phantom carrying the list. It's the combination of really good synergy and the fact that they cover each others' weakness basically perfectly, with the phantom murdering slower ships and the VT running interference against other highly maneuverable ships (such as...other phantoms). Given that it seems practically no one wants to innovate in Wave 5 (last local tournament literally 3 out of 13 us showed up without turrets, though I would definitely count the fringer player as innovation so 4/13) the pair has made mince-meat out of most other 2 ship builds.

Anyway, rebels do offer compensation for hyper-mobility, it just seems that we're too pigeon-holed into turrets.

For me, I found that R3-A2 is one of the best stress mechanics in the game (in general, though the most effective specifically anti-phantom one is Rebel Captive R3-A2 hoses them also provided you have a higher PS), and it makes all forms of hyper mobile from 'cetprs to phantoms to Dash cry. I've also been trying to push for prot-rocket A-wings as a complex but very viable option, since Jakes is basically soontir Fell with less innate red and a lower cost, but apparently Lordtwann can take store champion ships with just the generics.

(well green dice are fickle i guess... ).

You don't say?

Once Autothrusters are out the VT-49 will be the Only turret able to have a Vader Crew to stop Sontir Fel. That will make it the best turret in the game.

I'm afraid I don't see how the Baron, as badass as he is, could possibly be more meta dominating than the Phantom just because he gets to turn a green blank into an evade at range 3 or while outside your firing arc. I know he moves like Jake Farrel (i.e one of a very small stable that can keep up with the phantom mano-a-mano), but he's an actual glass cannon (3 hull, 3 green dice) that can be blocked or obstructed (not as possible with pre-manuever displacement) and is basically dead without action based defenses (as opposed to phantoms, who get to claim a free cloak and perhaps a free focus even if they somehow bumped)

Not to mention I've already run into Vader-mators, and while they're effective against the herd of two ship builds I find they just kill themselves faster against the lists I run (turret hate --> dedicated turret killing bulk in all of my lists). You'd be amazed how much faster Bounty Hunters drop VTs when they're damaging themselves for me.

I don't think X-wings are that bad. You just have to be smart when you play with them.

Facepalm!

No actually being smart is not enough... You would need to cheat to make the **** bricks move better, but i guess that's against the code of conduct for players...

They are still solid. The named pilots will still give you fits to fight against. I'll admit the Rookie and Red squadron aren't too useful as a filler ship. 2 Zs will likely serve you better.

I adressed the same problem basically in this thread not too long ago:http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/132735-meta-speculation-will-rebels-have-a-hard-time-in-wave-6/

I kept the tone more civilized, but look at my thread and see what happened.

I am not a Rebel only player just like the OP, but i feel a bit the same when confronted to this Forum.

The responses to my thread by the hardcore Imps were the following:

- one part of the die-hard Imps just denies the impact of AT against turret ships. That's just ridiculous because with an evade token and AT and for Soontir possibly two focus on top, no turret will hit him if he does not roll 3-4 absolute blanks. Do the statistics for yourself how often that will be. And even then it's mostly 1 hit going through. AT will have a big impact against turrets. But i feel that would be okay, if Rebels could field anything else that handles these ships!

- another part just tells us to keep the AT ship in arc. In case of hypermobile ships, that's an option for maybe one turn. If you blow all your own mobility and won't get any attack modification. That means chances are even then very slim to hit these ships. Keeping them in arc afterwards is just an illusion, a fairitale that certain posters want to create. Don't be deceived, either you don't have the mobility to do it or not the Pilot skill to move after them.

- the most part just tells you to learn to fly and to build different lists with Rebel ships, or to "learn the new meta". But i have yet to see anyone of them make an actual proposition that would work against Fel, Phantoms and the other ridiculously powerful imperial ships. They can't deliver such propositions, because there are none! And eventually they don't care about the Rebels, and some even openly admit it.

- and because i didn't back down with what i said, a lot of posts are just sarcastic or designed to make people that don't want to see Rebels disappearing in mediocrity shut up. They just want you to be quiet so they can see Empire more and more bloated by super powerful stuff.

Just because people didn't agree with you doesn't mean that they are hardcore Imperial players that are trying to silence voices of opposition.

The Rebels have turreted ships with pilots that are capable of beating or tieing Interceptor PS. These same ships have incredible dials. Interceptors still only have 3 hull. With PTL they have very limited moves if they want to keep taking actions and because they are dependent on actions for survival are vulnerable to being blocked. Interceptors won't be unkillable by turrets. They'll just be extremely hard to kill for players who play turrets that don't adapt.

I don't think X-wings are that bad. You just have to be smart when you play with them.

Facepalm!

No actually being smart is not enough... You would need to cheat to make the **** bricks move better, but i guess that's against the code of conduct for players...

Engine upgrade is 100% legal

Hey guys, guess what?

There are no "I win" buttons in this game. Some things are stronger than others in a direct matchup, but nothing is guaranteed. For Pete's sake, please stop using that meaningless phrase.

Hence - almost an I-win button.

Han will generally eat T/I's in a match up.

So for people who play fluffily - 181st being a good example.

well...

With both the Phantom and Interceptor being the best manueverable ships in the game the Empire have locked into a strong theme for how they operate in the game. Turrets were the way to handle this problem and that is why you saw so many over the last 9months. After Autothrusters comes out the Empire will not only have the best manueverable ships but the best Turret as well in the Decimator. That is the only problem I see in the coming meta. The empire will be fighting the empire while, the Scum and Rebels fight over the scraps.

1.) The Empire's theme has been mobility since the core set

2.) How is the VT-49 objectively the best turret (aside from looking the coolest)?

The combined 16 hull might look more impressive than a Falcon's 13, but the combination C3PO, Falcon Title, and even the single innate green die will cancel far more damage than the VT could hope to. Add in a superior dial and very powerful rebel crew, and the only advantages a Decimator really has is in stress infliction and having the Phantom as a wing man.

Also, if I wanted to play rock-paper-scissors I'd play rock-paper-scissors

If we're deciding games by lists rather than actually playing, then either FFG or one of the players really dun goofed

Come on, guys. Less doom, more being inspired by this: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/133055-championship-a-wing-list/

Once Autothrusters are out the VT-49 will be the Only turret able to have a Vader Crew to stop Sontir Fel. That will make it the best turret in the game.

The Decimator is also the large base turret that will have the hardest time trying to keep an Interceptor in arc.

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