Well. I've tried everything with awings. Named and generics. And I never got anything that could beat vi whisper consistently. The only thing I didn't try was the six awing swarm. Obviously I understand that it's all about blocking decloaks but even if that succeeds I think 2d awings have a very hard time punching through whisper. I'd think The good phantom player would just target the a with the best position and evade the pew pew. Rinse and repeat. Being patient. But hey, obviously I'm wrong. You made it work. Grats : ) I love the awing more than anything.

Thing is, you should almost Never get shots on the phantom, IMHO. And if you dedicate three plus ships to box it in and dictate where it's going then the phantoms escort should punish those ships as they will often be In bad position.

Depends what that escort is. With six ships you can split your force (Rebel and A-Wing swarms don't need to stay in formation as they've no Howlrunner to tie them down). I've flown swarms against Phantoms and blocked them in to pick them off as well as making them park on asteroids. It's not easy, but it can be done.

Worth doing as well to see the look on your opponents face!

During the semifinals, the OP did beat a Whisper/Chiraneau list played by another great player. I was at the table next to that match but was a little busy flying against another Whisper/Chiraneau.

That being said, by deploying his A wings in a line and at angles and not in formation, I could easily see how the OP could block Decloak positions.

Depends what that escort is. With six ships you can split your force (Rebel and A-Wing swarms don't need to stay in formation as they've no Howlrunner to tie them down). I've flown swarms against Phantoms and blocked them in to pick them off as well as making them park on asteroids. It's not easy, but it can be done.

Worth doing as well to see the look on your opponents face!

If 6/7 ship swarms are not available, you'd be surprised by how much coverage you can extend with two large ship arcs.

Had a surprisingly easy time against phantoms flying 2 bounty hunters and soontir

Really, it can be difficult but it's not impossible. You're basically trying to predict three potential Tie Fighters three ship bases away from its starting position. For every de-cloak lane blocked by an obstruction or ship, there's one less Tie Fighter.

Really, it can be difficult be it's not impossible. You're basically trying to predict three potential Tie Fighters three ship bases away from its starting position. For every de-cloak lane blocked by an obstruction or ship, there's one less Tie Fighter.

I'll admit there is some truth to that, but the problem is that 'predicting' is meaningless because they can react and change their mind. Smart phantom players choose maneuvers that work off of multiple decloak directions, and often have a contingency plan in case a block comes up. I give my high praise to the OP for his success. I wish I could do something like that.

I'll admit there is some truth to that, but the problem is that 'predicting' is meaningless because they can react and change their mind.

Only to a point. They're still limited to 1 of 3 possible decloak locations, unless it's Echo. So you can account for where it's likely to end up from either one of those 3 locations. So with 3-4 ships you can cover most any ending location that doesn't wreck the Phantom's own attack.

Really, it can be difficult be it's not impossible. You're basically trying to predict three potential Tie Fighters three ship bases away from its starting position. For every de-cloak lane blocked by an obstruction or ship, there's one less Tie Fighter.

I'll admit there is some truth to that, but the problem is that 'predicting' is meaningless because they can react and change their mind. Smart phantom players choose maneuvers that work off of multiple decloak directions, and often have a contingency plan in case a block comes up. I give my high praise to the OP for his success. I wish I could do something like that.

Yes and no

The further you are away, the longer your firing arc extends and the much more difficult it becomes to simply barrel-roll out of it (the problem here is "holy green dice, batman!")

The closer you are, the greater the chance that you can fly your ship into their de-cloak path before they ever have a chance to reveal their dial (The problem here is a potential case of "holy red dice, batman!" if you only block off one route)

Whichever method you use depends on your ships, and fast 2 attack dice ships are generally forced into the latter

Either way, predicting is not "meaningless." It takes a frustrating amount of time to get used to how the phantom flies and how to react or pre-act to it, but once you grasp it you're only going to have fits with Echo.

IF you need a fast track to coming to grips with phantoms, fly them yourself. If you don't enjoy easy mode, give whisper a pair of sigma buddies (FCS, Int agent, Stygium) and get ready for a very engaging challenge

Amen! Glad to see A-Wings succeeding and that I'm not the only one to love them. Sorry you had to spend $90 to make it work.

Amen! Glad to see A-Wings succeeding and that I'm not the only one to love them. Sorry you had to spend $90 to make it work.

It's actually more than $90:

4 A-Wing Expansions ($15 x 4 = $60)

2 Rebel Aces box sets for the Chardan Refits and A-Wings ($30 x 2 = $60)

2 TIE Defender Expansions for the 2 Predators ($15 x 2 = $30)

Total $150, though I would imagine you could get it cheaper by shopping around.

Interesting idea. I'd think the 8 tie swarm would still be better though. Same amount of HP, though no shields. Get 4 more attack dice (6 at range 1), and can have up to 4 ships to be PS3 as opposed to 2 a-wings, or have one be dark curse or backstabber of course.

I almost wonder if it would be better to have 5 protos and 1 high level for the 6th.

Interesting idea. I'd think the 8 tie swarm would still be better though. Same amount of HP, though no shields. Get 4 more attack dice (6 at range 1), and can have up to 4 ships to be PS3 as opposed to 2 a-wings, or have one be dark curse or backstabber of course.

I almost wonder if it would be better to have 5 protos and 1 high level for the 6th.

I've found A-wings have a couple of advantages over TIEs that I underestimated originally.. One is that they are a lot less likely to be one-shot and more resilient overall, so they're rate of attrition can be a lot slower than TIEs, where I'm not surprised to lose one or even two a turn. Their 3 and 5K provided better options for turning around quickly than the TIES 3 and 4, where there' snot enough of a difference that both moves are often blocked. The A-wing also has a lot better options after K-turning. I've also found boost more capable of providing better blocking (especially on a phantom's decloak) than barrel roll and boost's heading change more helpful in keeping opposing ships in arc.

Yup

Phantom maneuverability is legit, but it is also highly over-represented on the forums. As long as we're dealing with linear de-cloaks, predicting where the phantom will end up is not nearly as difficult as pushing enough attacks through four greens.

Mostly the real root of the problem is people being overly aggressive with the phantoms and putting themselves in positions on the next turn where there will only be 1 decloak option. Maybe it's a lack of foresight. Or practice with the phantom. Or being overconfident against lists like this etc. If the phantom is hit and running to keep it's options open while the decimator is boosting out of arcs, they will stay alive a lot longer, and become even harder to kill of course when a few weenies are gone. Many many players lack the patience that these 2 ship builds often require. Sometimes they still get away with it on the strength of the ship alone, or hot dice in the case of the phantom.

Yup

Phantom maneuverability is legit, but it is also highly over-represented on the forums. As long as we're dealing with linear de-cloaks, predicting where the phantom will end up is not nearly as difficult as pushing enough attacks through four greens.

Mostly the real root of the problem is people being overly aggressive with the phantoms and putting themselves in positions on the next turn where there will only be 1 decloak option. Maybe it's a lack of foresight. Or practice with the phantom. Or being overconfident against lists like this etc. If the phantom is hit and running to keep it's options open while the decimator is boosting out of arcs, they will stay alive a lot longer, and become even harder to kill of course when a few weenies are gone. Many many players lack the patience that these 2 ship builds often require. Sometimes they still get away with it on the strength of the ship alone, or hot dice in the case of the phantom.

Many players also lack the table space required to run away indefinitely In a two ship high PS build, you basically have no way to block fighters that are screeching in to deny de-cloaks (Assuming they go for that strategy) and setting up your three obstructions on the same half of the table makes things even more difficult for them (and the fatties that accompany)

At long range, the phantom has a harder time and more dice, but I found that fatty boosts do even less because the length of the displacement is compensated for somewhat by the girth of the base

The only phantom I've experienced able to hit and run almost indefinitely is Echo. Because linear decloak phantoms are making Tie Fighter turns, they can't hit and run effectively every turn which cuts down more than 50% of the firepower of the 2 ship list (making fatty an easy target). Echo, though, can basically face almost any direction post decloak and with a veteran player at the reigns she becomes really close to impossible to pin down. She, however, is at least "limited" by PS 8.

still, an expertly flown phantom is a terror when allowed to run free, just not as much as a boogie as on these boards. An "expertly" tossed set of hot dice can pull them out of even your best maneuvers, but that's also the case for fatties that become basically unbeatable (can never dodge that arc) if you lose too many ships.

There is plenty of space most of the time. Many players i've seen just decide to fight with the phantom in the middle of asteroids or near the edge of the board so are limited by those factors. Also they rarely use the asteroids to split up swarms a bit before they engage with decimator.

There is plenty of space most of the time. Many players i've seen just decide to fight with the phantom in the middle of asteroids or near the edge of the board so are limited by those factors. Also they rarely use the asteroids to split up swarms a bit before they engage with decimator.

I understand your point, but it's not just the Decimator/Phantom player dictating where the fight will take place and setting up and using asteroids to their advantage. I've noticed that I've gotten much better with practice at predicting the line a large ship will take (because most turns, there really aren't that many options) and that A-wings are great for providing options to either block it or get guns on it. Good players do limit that especially with boost, but it's often a choice of fewer guns (not zero) and they end up with unmodified shots or, in the case of the falcon, no evades.

Not to mention that if a Tie can set up an integral block, I'm sending that expendable bastard through all the obstructions to secure it

ditto bandits and prototypes, id imagine

The list has a lot of flexibility, which is why I fly it. They're fast and maneuverable enough to get anywhere on the board quickly. The key is not to fly in formation, and to control the initial engagement. The other thing is to pick your battles. Against phantom lists I always ignore the phantom and go for the support. Once the support is gone I adjust my strategy and either play for time or box the phantom in. Depends on how many ships I have left and how much time there is.

I'm not trying to be self congratulatory but this is not an easy list to fly. It took a good bit of practice for me to figure out how best to approach different scenarios. And getting used to flying all six cohesively while not flying in formation.

Also my opponents were great. Almost every round was close and they didn't let up. My opponents, especially in the final eight were brutal and brilliant.

I made this post (and chose this list) because I believe that while the meta-game is undeniable, the beauty of this game lies in it's diversity. Now I'll be the first to call the phantom broken and inflated. But with a little creativity and thinking outside of the meta anyone, and any list can do well. Even win a major event.

The A-Wing has always been my favorite ship from the SW universe, and I've been winning tournaments with them even before aces. It's no B-wing and it never will be. And if you're flying it like one decrying it's lack of barrel roll and it's two dice then there's your problem. It's not a heavy hitter, it's a swarm of bees. I'm just hoping that it starts getting the respect it deserves.

Seriously.. How does this list beat phantoms with acd? Just Can't see it happening. What prevents them from just killing an awing each turn? They move last shoot first. Should be so easy to isolate one or two awings a turn.

I don't think the A-Wing swarm is a super powerful list, but they don't have their worst matchup in Phantoms. A-Wings can block decloaks with their mobility easier than other ships, and the Phantom will not drop them so easily either. If it's the Typical Whisper/Phantom you can also kill the Decimator pretty fast and that's 3/5 of the enemy points! So minor victories are wuite possibke too!

The list has a lot of flexibility, which is why I fly it. They're fast and maneuverable enough to get anywhere on the board quickly. The key is not to fly in formation, and to control the initial engagement. The other thing is to pick your battles. Against phantom lists I always ignore the phantom and go for the support. Once the support is gone I adjust my strategy and either play for time or box the phantom in. Depends on how many ships I have left and how much time there is.

I'm not trying to be self congratulatory but this is not an easy list to fly. It took a good bit of practice for me to figure out how best to approach different scenarios. And getting used to flying all six cohesively while not flying in formation.

Also my opponents were great. Almost every round was close and they didn't let up. My opponents, especially in the final eight were brutal and brilliant.

I made this post (and chose this list) because I believe that while the meta-game is undeniable, the beauty of this game lies in it's diversity. Now I'll be the first to call the phantom broken and inflated. But with a little creativity and thinking outside of the meta anyone, and any list can do well. Even win a major event.

The A-Wing has always been my favorite ship from the SW universe, and I've been winning tournaments with them even before aces. It's no B-wing and it never will be. And if you're flying it like one decrying it's lack of barrel roll and it's two dice then there's your problem. It's not a heavy hitter, it's a swarm of bees. I'm just hoping that it starts getting the respect it deserves.

Thank you, but I mostly just want people to not discount ships just because they're not the hot girl at the meta-prom. Honestly my post was mostly to say, "See, it can be done. You don't have to live and list-build in fear of phantoms." I just want to see more variety in the lists we see across the table.

I agree with you in that I don't think it requires that much skill to fly a phantom. I've been quite open in fact with calling phantom players lazy. And as anyone I've played against will contest, I audibly groan every time I sit across the table from one. It's just boring. And no, it's not because I can't beat them. In fact I honestly don't think I've ever lost to a phantom list in a tournament. That's partially because I always have a phantom counter, or a plan for them, and I hate that. I hate that I always have to have that contingency. It drives me crazy that so many people fall in for it because it's, statistically speaking, the most powerful ship in the game. I hate seeing the exact same build on the exact same pilot on nearly half the lists I see at tournaments. It's just boring to fly against and I hate those matches. It's never interesting or exciting, just sad.

@Lordtwann: first off, a big congrats on your victory.

One of our local guys flew a Z/X/B swarm to a second place finish at the relatively local regional last year, and fought Phantoms in something like 6 of the rounds. You are absolutely right. Phantoms can be beaten by non-turreted lists - turrets just simplify the procedure.

That said, I do disagree that phantoms are easy to fly. In my experience, they kind of have two learning curves. There's the standard Phantom (Sigma/Shadow/Whisper) which is fairly easy to fly but requires the ability to predict your position a turn or so ahead (so you don't block de-cloak options). Then there is Echo, who has a much steeper learning curve because your spacial awareness makes it much more difficult to predict where you'll be a turn or two ahead - and added to that the problem of flying against higher pilot skill pilots.

Now - all that said, I'm in the camp that hopes they'll nerf ACD so that we see more variety on the table again.

Now - all that said, I'm in the camp that hopes they'll nerf ACD so that we see more variety on the table again.

I don't think we need FFG to 'nerf' anything to encourage people to bring more varied lists to the gaming table. That goes against what I think Lordtwann is saying with this thread. Some people will always play lists that are perceived to be powerful. I have done the same... I've seen lists on here or other forums and played them and won. I've also tried to put together my own lists. When I've had success with my own lists I've always got a greater sense of satisfaction than with a list I've 'borrowed' from someone else. I think what Lordtwann is saying is that variety comes from people developing their own ideas and thinking outside the conceived 'meta'. If Phantoms are a potent threat then we should be looking at ways of neutralising that threat with the tools available to us rather than waiting for FFG to either 'nerf' it or waiting for an upgrade that's coming in the next wave (yes Autothusters, I'm talking about you!).

Now - all that said, I'm in the camp that hopes they'll nerf ACD so that we see more variety on the table again.

I don't think we need FFG to 'nerf' anything to encourage people to bring more varied lists to the gaming table. That goes against what I think Lordtwann is saying with this thread. Some people will always play lists that are perceived to be powerful. I have done the same... I've seen lists on here or other forums and played them and won. I've also tried to put together my own lists. When I've had success with my own lists I've always got a greater sense of satisfaction than with a list I've 'borrowed' from someone else. I think what Lordtwann is saying is that variety comes from people developing their own ideas and thinking outside the conceived 'meta'. If Phantoms are a potent threat then we should be looking at ways of neutralising that threat with the tools available to us rather than waiting for FFG to either 'nerf' it or waiting for an upgrade that's coming in the next wave (yes Autothusters, I'm talking about you!).

It's very clear that the phantom does limit what people can bring (Lordtwann eludes to this), and while there may be more few more options that can counter it than are readily used, the ship has very much shrunk the variety of lists that are competitive. People have been "looking at ways to neutralize the ship" since it came out (and before), and it is still dominating the meta. It's not that it can't be beaten -- it can, but it does need to be specifically planned for more than any other ship. As I said above, I have done well with 4As and Luke, including against Whisper, and I'm comfortable against Echo as well because of Luke, but there are several things that would make her tougher. Of course, my Luke is also a very direct Phantom counter.

Echo is much more of a swarm killer than Whisper because of the challenge of blocking her. I'd actually be curious if our OP has face a good Echo player. Echo just has more hard counters in the meta and is harder to fly so I think we can get away with not expecting to face her.

Right on the money with Echo

Echo, when flown by an experienced player, is easily the hardest thing to draw arcs onto

Conversely, when facing a player with experience against phantoms, Echo's taking hits to the face with 2 green dice.

As long as the meta demands PS 9 (which it does), Echo is a very skill reliant ship and one mistake can be almost as costly as screwing up with an interceptor (against low PS, it's pretty easy). This is probably why people prefer the much simpler and much more durable Whisper.

I do also believe the Phantom could throw away the +agility from cloak when acquired from ACD and still be a right terror. The only problem is turrets then hose them worse than Interceptors. As of now, Soontir at least has a chance of living with Stealth Device at Range 3 (5 greens) and a hoard of defensive tokens, but 2 agility phantoms don't really have that option.

I have, however, had generic Sigmas with Stygium take a hilariously long time to kill with the evade + focus double up (plus intelligence agents to take refuge from a fattie by causing it to bump), but they take a ridiculous amount of coordination and practice to get working properly.