Ok so brief back story: Played in a tournament today. The guy I was playing against is generally a decent fellow but I'm not sure about something he was doing with templates.Basically he was using Whisper and before deciding to decloak or not decloak or even where to decloak he is holding the templates above the table about 1-1.5 feet while looking down at them. I asked about this bc I'm quite new to the game and was pretty sure that falls under a form of pre measuring.

So should I run into this situation in the future I would like a clear ruling or guidance to point to. I was under the impression that it is like barrel rolling and once you declare a side you have to try to make that side work, AND you cant check if it would work at all prior to declaring.

Thanks in advance.

Yes that would fall under "pre-measuring". Advise the TO immediately if it happens again.

thanks for confirming what I was thinking.

Yup

This is illegal

Hope you beat him

I hate cheaters

NOTE: To some people just about EVERYTHING that one might use to judge distance and/or direction is "pre measuring."

On the scale of measuring this sounds like it is pretty close to just dropping it on the table as seeing where you might end up. Had he just picked up the template and then looked at it, then the board, and maybe back and forth a couple times before doing something what that is becomes a lot more fuzzy; some would say that is measuring (just having a template anywhere near the board may get considered as measuring) but I'd say it is just someone trying to figure out the game and what things can do.

Some would hate this but I'm going to assume that your opponent was also learning the game and this is part of his process. If you think it gives him a big advantage then I'd say you should feel free to do the same. While dropping the template on the board by the mini would clearly be measuring as you move away from that the only way someone couldn't pre measure at all would be if they played the game blind.

NOTE: To some people just about EVERYTHING that one might use to judge distance and/or direction is "pre measuring."

On the scale of measuring this sounds like it is pretty close to just dropping it on the table as seeing where you might end up. Had he just picked up the template and then looked at it, then the board, and maybe back and forth a couple times before doing something what that is becomes a lot more fuzzy; some would say that is measuring (just having a template anywhere near the board may get considered as measuring) but I'd say it is just someone trying to figure out the game and what things can do.

Some would hate this but I'm going to assume that your opponent was also learning the game and this is part of his process. If you think it gives him a big advantage then I'd say you should feel free to do the same. While dropping the template on the board by the mini would clearly be measuring as you move away from that the only way someone couldn't pre measure at all would be if they played the game blind.

1. He has been playing for awhile, but I dont think he has had phantoms for long.

2. If he had been just holding the template well off to the side to try to get the size locked into his head I wouldn't really care, but this was different. he was very clearly lining the template up over the phantom and viewing it from overhead to guage where he would decloak for each of his possible options.

3. This process he was taking was running about a minute each time he moved the phantom and that slow process was what most irked me at the time.

Pre-measuring and cheating - without a doubt.

He did it wrong.

However - cheating implies intent, and maybe he just didn't know that it is not allowed.

Just saying.

If he innocently didn't know pre-measuring was illegal, he would have used the template on the table like normal. By holding it over the table and looking from above, he was clearly trying to see what he could get away with.

Nothing innocent here.

If he innocently didn't know pre-measuring was illegal, he would have used the template on the table like normal. By holding it over the table and looking from above, he was clearly trying to see what he could get away with.

Nothing innocent here.

I talked to one of the regulars who knows the guy and it is apparent he simply didn't know. He most likely is under the impression that laying the template down is committing to the attempt but beyond that he can mull over it the way he was doing. Anyway the local group will have a refresher post sent out to them about pre measuring and what is and isn't kosher so its all good.

Having played a few times against him he is a decent fellow and I truly believe he simply didnt know so case closed.

Thanks

1. He has been playing for awhile, but I dont think he has had phantoms for long.

2. If he had been just holding the template well off to the side to try to get the size locked into his head I wouldn't really care, but this was different. he was very clearly lining the template up over the phantom and viewing it from overhead to guage where he would decloak for each of his possible options.

3. This process he was taking was running about a minute each time he moved the phantom and that slow process was what most irked me at the time.

1. Playing Echo would even make it worse.

2. As I mentioned on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being "put the template on the table for no other reason" it sounds like he was at an 8 or 9 for pre measuring.

3. THIS is what would definitely irk me the most. In a lot of ways I believe this is why the "no measuring" rules exist although I'll say there are times when allowing a "quick" measure would save a lot of time instead of requiring someone to look at a tricky option VERY carefully before committing.

On point 3 I'd have a lot less trouble with briefly setting the template on the board to see where the ends go (no moving the ship of course to test) than spending a lot more time mulling over how something will work. To me the time someone may spend pre measuring is the reason against it.

It may upset some but I believe the massive hostility this board often shows towards anything the could remotely be seen as pre measuring is because it rewards players with very good spacial awareness and those who work at playing the hardest and thus can 'measure' without actually having to do it. In X-Wing you have random dice and may not know what your opponent will do but beyond those things the game has perfect information and that should include knowing where the templates would take you.

My rule of thumb is "no touching templates while planning," or more affectively, "look but don't touch." Nothing wrong with taking a gander at the templates and trying to calculate it out in your head, but no moving them at all.

My rule of thumb is "no touching templates while planning," or more affectively, "look but don't touch." Nothing wrong with taking a gander at the templates and trying to calculate it out in your head, but no moving them at all.

I'll definitely give you that although as you mention it is "while planning" which I believe is when measuring should be completely prohibited. I'm not sure that drawing LoS is measuring especially if done with a laser line or such but templates are definitely out.

The OP's issue wasn't measuring during the planning phase but rather measuring during the movement/acting phase. To me this is the gray area as the basic rules allow you to measure before committing to a maneuver but the tournament rules forbid pre-measuring.

To me this is the gray area as the basic rules allow you to measure before committing to a maneuver but the tournament rules forbid pre-measuring.

You're quite right and it's something that gets missed quite often. The standard rules do in fact let you measure for actions before you commit to them. So you can actually put the template down on the table and see where you would decloak in all 3 directions before choosing one, or deciding to not decloak at all.

Now in this case the guy was playing in a tournament, but even then unless it's a Store Champ or 'higher' you still don't have to play by the competitive rules.

Most likely they were and so the above doesn't really apply, but it is something people should keep in mind, that not every game, even every tournament is played by the competitive rules.

If he innocently didn't know pre-measuring was illegal, he would have used the template on the table like normal. By holding it over the table and looking from above, he was clearly trying to see what he could get away with.

Nothing innocent

So where exactly does the line get drawn? Templates off the game mat? Holding in your hand? On the game mat?

The templates should be off the play area to the side. There's no ruling about holding them while planning, but once they start being held over the play area, you've got a problem.

A good rule of thumb is anything that can be used to measure (distance template, other templates) when not under immediate use, should not be handled. That used to be a general rule during the planning phase but now that the Phantom is a thing, we should just logically extend it to say that if you aren't using the template right now, you can't touch it.

That's being a bit strict and I'd only tell my opponent that if they were doing something fishy. That and I'd call the TO over and get clarification regarding their actions.

Since the 1-Forward template is the same length as a small ship base, you could conceivably set the 1-Forward template down off to the side during Planning, put the maneuver you're thinking about in front of it and estimate where your ship will be. You're not technically measuring, since you're not putting the templates on the game board, but you're definitely getting more info that the devs seem to have intended you have.

LOL, I can only imagine how he will be once he plays with Echo. As a player who almost exclusively plays with Echo + Named Interceptors, I would say that is cheating. Many times I have had the 2-bank template on my hand trying to recall what decloak action I had planned for Echo, but I have never "looked down the gun sights" like he has done.

You're quite right and it's something that gets missed quite often. The standard rules do in fact let you measure for actions before you commit to them. So you can actually put the template down on the table and see where you would decloak in all 3 directions before choosing one, or deciding to not decloak at all.

Where does it say that? On the FAQ, you can measure from the active ship to any target ships before deciding on a target or measure from the active ship to any target ship to check for ability range (page 9). On the same page, it says that when performing a barrel roll/boost, the player has to declare which side he is boosting/barrel rolling to, then he can check if he can do that action. If he cannot, he can choose to boost/barrel roll in a different direction or do a different action altogether but if he can boost/barrel roll in his declared side/direction, he MUST do so.

When I play, I kept this ruling when declaring decloaks.

Therefore, you cannot measure boost/barrel roll/decloak in all directions before choosing one.

In the "interest of learning," however, I declare which side I boost/barrel roll/decloak to "lock in" that maneuver, then I check other directions to mentally see where my other options would've taken me. All my opponents have been supportive of this because I have committed to one direction and am only checking the other directions AFTER declaring where I intend to go.

LOL, I can only imagine how he will be once he plays with Echo. As a player who almost exclusively plays with Echo + Named Interceptors, I would say that is cheating. Many times I have had the 2-bank template on my hand trying to recall what decloak action I had planned for Echo, but I have never "looked down the gun sights" like he has done.

You're quite right and it's something that gets missed quite often. The standard rules do in fact let you measure for actions before you commit to them. So you can actually put the template down on the table and see where you would decloak in all 3 directions before choosing one, or deciding to not decloak at all.

Where does it say that? On the FAQ, you can measure from the active ship to any target ships before deciding on a target or measure from the active ship to any target ship to check for ability range (page 9). On the same page, it says that when performing a barrel roll/boost, the player has to declare which side he is boosting/barrel rolling to, then he can check if he can do that action. If he cannot, he can choose to boost/barrel roll in a different direction or do a different action altogether but if he can boost/barrel roll in his declared side/direction, he MUST do so.

When I play, I kept this ruling when declaring decloaks.

Therefore, you cannot measure boost/barrel roll/decloak in all directions before choosing one.

There's nothing in the Standard rules about having to declare which way you might be barrel rolling, and the section you're referencing is in the Competitive Play rules.

Ah, you are right. Page 8 on the core rulebook says a player can measure to see if he can do a barrel roll BEFORE committing to that action. I guess that extends to decloaking and boosting as well, right?

I guess I've been playing "Competitive Fly Casual" for a long time I've forgotten how forgiving the basic rules are.

EDIT: The OP did say they were playing in a tournament and while FFG has a "casual" level, I would not think someone who is playing a casual game would say "we were playing in a tournament." I know, I know, weekly game nights and leagues are considered "casual." So again, I blame my mindset for making me assume "tournament" = Competitive play.

I guess regardless of tier of play, I try to play with "high level of conduct" and that means being competitive but still keeping things friendly.....