I've had Dark Pharoah for a few weeks now, and have on three occasions drawn an Other World Final Battle. The first was Joe's No Contest against Ithaqua. He kept his guns (one was a derringer) and obliterated the poor ice creature without breaking a sweat. He didn't even use Mandy, who was standing by. The second was two games ago, where Carolyn was eaten by Cthulhu without a prayer.

Last game had the most interesting one. Monterey Jack entered Ryleh, encountering Cthulhu immediately. His weapon set was an axe and a Cursed Sphere. He had +1 Fight and the assistance of Tom Murphy. And he was the Psychic, borrowing Bob's +1 Fight. We were playing Hastur, and Jack had accumulated the 8 clues to seal. He also happened to be blessed. The astute among you notice that this is 11 dice per turn, with +3 dice per clue.

Nevertheless, in a vain attempt to conserve my clues, Jack rolled poorly, wasted his stamina, and lost the blessing. Cthulhu went down, but not without a fight, turning Jack into a pathetic 3/4.

Here's the interesting part. I didn't notice the environment until after the fight.

No One Can Help You Now .

"If you defeat Cthulhu, he retreats back into slumber, and you may escape to Arkham immediately. The gate to R'yleh is sealed behind you, and you may take it as a trophy."

"Gates cannot be sealed, although they can still be closed."

What happens here? The sealing was a side effect of the epic fight. Jack wasn't sealing it, the game was. It doesn't mention anything about closing the gate, either. On the one hand, I can see a case being made that the power expelled by sending Cthulhu back to bed would be enough to do it for you. On the other hand, perhaps no one can help you anyway, not even Cthulhu.

I allowed it, because it was cool, it was late, and I had an opportunity for a closing victory. Not necessarily because I believe it was the proper course of action. The game would have continued had I ruled the other way, for the gate would have reopened pretty quickly. Hastur was nowhere near awakening, though, and I suppose Jack could have slaughtered him anyway.

What do you guys think?

flamethrower49 said:

Well, NOCHYN doesn't specify anything on who/what it is targetting, merely that gates can't be sealed. True, in all but a few special cases, it's an investigator doing the sealing, but it doesn't make an exception on sealing regardless of means IMO. Still, I'd say NOCHYN trumps. As for closing/sealing, I'd still close the gate. The card doesn't mention it (probably, because it's all ready quite full of text), but rules mention that in order to seal, a gate must first be closed (along those lines anyway).

Should've sent in Akachi .

Dam said:

I knew you would say that. Deep in my bones, I knew you would say that.

I should have beaten you to it.

Any other opinions?

As much as I dig the concept of the dual-color Gate Cards, and even love the individual fight, I really hate trying to wedge the-game-should-really-be-OVER-before-you-have-to-deal-with-this "Final Battle" rules into the middle of a game. I generally hope the Investigator loses and we can just call it a really tasty devouring, rather than have to deal with some crumpled-up survivor.

As such, I'm not inclined to give any dual-color Gate Card precedence over anything. Environment (and any other global condition) wins.

jgt7771 said:

You're right about the Dark Pharaoh dual-colours being a rules nightmare. But it's not like 'sealing a gate' is one of those mad abilities which only appears on crazy-ass Dark Pharaoh OW cards. Plenty of cards (encounters, items etc) can result in gates being sealed.

While "sealing a gate" is often used as a useful shorthand for the action of "paying five clues to place a seal", official rules and cards are mostly not this sloppy, and when the say "the gate is sealed", they are (by implication) referring to the effect of placing a seal, not any particular action which you can or can't undertake to achieve it in any particular situation. I can't see anything which indicates that a phrase like "gates cannot be sealed" would refer to one of the ways that seals are placed but not to the others. By implication, NOCHYN stops seals being placed, and it doesn't care how they're placed.

I think the more general point is that a specific rules prohibition on a card should probably override a specific rules permission on a card. Dual-colour OW battles aren't the only cards which provide you with one-off permission to seal, or tell you to seal. There's an encounter at Hibb's Roadhouse, and the Parchment of the Elder Sign. Does anyone think the Parchment still works when NOCHYN is in play?

That's fair, and I pretty much expected that opinion. Now, to go back, would anybody make the same ruling if Akachi was indeed the subject in this battle? Again, it's not her doing the sealing. How much does this change people's mind?

There is an interesting encounter at Esoteric Order of Dagon which reads something along the lines of: If you have an Elder Sign, you may discard it to seal this location. No mention of gates in that.

flamethrower49 said:

>sigh<

I have to give it to Akachi. Although I prefer to play theme over mechanics if the flavor text suits me, Kevin said some time ago that if a card says "the gate is closed", then it is the Investigator who is doing the closing and can take the trophy (if not forbidden to do so). Corollary to that, the gate can be sealed if also not forbidden and the Investigator has the Clues or cards to do so. The dual-color cards say the gate may be taken as a trophy, and Akachi says "may always seal, regardless of other game effects". Other game effects would seem to specifically target Mythos roadblocks, if nothing else.

"No One Can Help You Now" officially has a rebuttal: "I beg to differ."