Cronies, Drudges, Flunkies, Goons, Lackeys, Minions, Pawns

They are several reasons why minions are fun: you can throw dozens of enemies at the players without killing them off instantly or being nothing more than a nuisance, there are no hit points (Wounds) for the GM to track.

Defeat Values

2 - Lowly; Unprepared or Unskilled Participant or Unengaged or Inexperienced (green)
Examples: Child Freedom Fighters (aka rock throwers), Peasants, Plebeians, Citizens, Menials, Servants

5 - Medium; Off Duty or Inebriated or Past / Under Prime (elderly / child) or the Uninspired
Examples: Vehement Scum, Child Soldiers, Desk-Jockey “Cop” put on Patrol, Professional Athlete, Gailer or Guard

9 - High; Shows Potential or Features Basic Training or Inspired to Act boldly (High Moral)
Examples: Criminal Fighters, Spirited Insurrectionists, Man-Sized Mutants and Spawn, Special Forces (Human), S.W.A.T-like groups

14 – Elite; Embolden or Highly Experienced or of a Size / Threat level in excess of the tier of Man
Examples: Big Sized Mutant and Spawn, Lesser Daemons, Failed Renegade Throne Agents, Heretics, Hereteks, and so forth

The values expressed above represent the amount of Damage a PC must inflict in order to defeat or kill the Minion. The value is treated like AR (i.e. damage reduction) so that a value of 2 is defeated by 3 or more points of damage after the reduction of damage is applied beforehand.

Once a single Point-of-Damage is actually inflicted, the Minion is considered “defeated” but not dead…

Considerations
• If at range then a Full Action automatically kills the Minion by subsequent action
• If adjacent (WS or BS applicable) then a Half Action is only needed to slay the Minion

If a natural “10” (D10) is rolled on Damage OR a “5” (D5) then the minion was killed by that single hit, in this way a Minion intended for interrogation can be accidently slain beforehand…

Otherwise make a Toughness Test at the end of the battle to see if they are still alive.

Characteristics / Skills
If scores are needed for Characteristics / Skills; then apply the following quick guidelines:

Low = Choose ONE Characteristic to be 30 and another to be 20, while the remainder become 10

Medium = Choose ONE Characteristic to be 40 and another to be 30, while the remainder become 15

High = Choose ONE Characteristic to be 50and another to be 40, while the remainder become 20

Elite = Choose ONE Characteristic to be 60and another to be 50, while the remainder become 25

Advanced Options

- Area of Effect-like Abilities affect ONE Minion per Success if Tested against.

- Minions can be used as Meat-shields aka Human Shields (according to the situation at hand); just apply them as Cover

- Minions can “Aid” each other; in this way one minion can receive “buffs” to hit; EACH participant automatically <via an expended Action> adds +5% (Full Action)

Mob / Swarming

Minions can merge into Mobs and Swarms – when they do so treat as a Single Minion one Grade Higher

To become a Mob or Swarm the Minions must outnumber a single Target by a factor of 4:1

• Becomes very susceptible to Area-of-Effect abilities / damage; treat the Defeat Value as ONE Grade Lower

Example; Medium Sized Combatants form a Mob of 6 people – before joining they were counted as a Defeat Value of 5.

Now as a Mob / Swarm they are individually each counted as a Defeat Value of 9.

If say a Grenade with Area of Effect or Splash Damage hits this Mob / Swarm (area-of-effect attack), then they are all counted as a Defeated Value of 5 individually…

• Can cause a Target to grant Combat Advantage when Flanking ( COMBAT ADVANTAGE is a HOUSE-RULE I use in my Game )

• Pinning, Overbearing, Wrestling; if adjacent to a Swarm while performing a RANGED Attack – the Swarm receives an automatic Attack of Opportunity.

• Hoisting Targets; a Mob / Swarm has the ability to actually LIFT a Medium Sized Target (i.e. a character) off the ground and haul them away – considered a Half-Action by all participants of the Mob / Swarm (this counts as an Attack Action).

Mob / Swarm Moral
Minions don’t form tight cohesive units rather theirs is an existence brought on by necessity and self-preservation and as such members are susceptible to Fear, Psychic Attacks, and or any manner of mental duress.

When a Psychic Power or Supernatural Effect defeats or slays one or any number of the Mob / Swarm’s number – they must immediately perform a WIL Test to stay together as a unit – otherwise they disband and can’t reform until the beginning of a new battle(i.e. an encounter)…

Such demoralization can take the fight right out of such a group - all members have their individual Grade (Defeat Value) lower by one...

Example; a hungry Mob of Criminals (say in a prison or some other applicable locale) set themselves against your Players - in this case they were each considered Medium then "mobbed-up" and became High Grade increasing their Defeat Values from 5 to 9...

Then your group of PCs does battle with them and one PC (a Psyker) quells the criminal groupage via some sort of power, killing one of their number! Well the Mob performs a WIL Test (as a High Grade) and fails...

Now individually each participating criminal is considered Lowly, reducing their 5s to 2s as far as their Individual Defeat Values are concerned!

The PCs make short work of them thereafter!

FIN

Please Advise (if all is "good" then I will compile a PDF Guide for this)

Morbid

It seems a little overcomplicated and divorced from the basic system. Take your Defeat Value - it makes no allowance for armor or AP, relative toughnesses, Warp Creature, etc. The stats are also extremely divorced from what the normal statistics for the targets. An Ork, for example, couldn't have both good weapon skill, good strength and good toughness. Nor could they have abysmal ballistics skill.

I actually use a Mook system in my game, though it's a bit less structured in it's creation, which is to say I just use the stats in the book, or invent them by normal NPC means. I do agree with not wound tracking however.

My intention is to divorce myself when necessary from hard to reference rules that bog gaming down and create paperwork...

The values I used are arbitrary for ease of use - they weren't meant to account for specifics like armor and or the warp.

It all hinges on the values of 2, 5, 9, 14 (very easy)

Either Staged Up or Down

I don't know about most GMs, but I done want to keep track of Critical Wound effects if I thrown down 30+ Minions at my group...

If it damages - then its killed or checked against later

Armor, Special Effects, Whatever - are gimmicks to be applied spot-on thus facilitating ease of play.

For example - I plan to thrown some Psyker-types at my group this weekend who can only "Daze" (forgive my lack of the Lingo, imposes Half-Action restrictions to the PCs when their power works successfully) as their special "gimmick" when they form into a Mob / Swarm...

(I am running an adventure based on the Movie Dark City)

When separated these Minions will be little better than the plebeians that choke this galaxy of ours! LOL

So no need to account for armor (but, if I really do; just spot on +1 light, +2 medium, +3 heavy armor - very simple and quick)

A minion is a minion ; so if an "Ork" is being used as a minion, its NOT SPECIAL anymore, thus much of its details can be glossed over... (this is called PULP - you seem to be a PURIST, either of which are acceptable game-styles)

Once you have these values down it becomes easy to use them over

My Curve:

2 to 5; 3 point difference

5 to 9; 4 point

9 to 14; 5 point

14 to 20 (yes i use this grade value too); 6 points of difference

Summary:

In all I'm just presenting a quicker faster way - keep in mind Fantasy Flight Games isn't a flawless author - meaning everything they write just because they wrote isn't automatically without question110% good (i.e flawless), fair, or balanced - let along quick or easy (just try looking up anything in there books - you have to reference 3 different portions of the book a lot of times LOL).

Unless you can see some sort of erroneous flaw to my system herein, I'm not sure of your point Quicksilver or that of FFG's Logic...

Stay Gaming

Morbid-Don

My point boils down to the level of gloss being applied. I don't mind simplifications, but to much simplification can remove the interest. If Orks, Demons, Cultists, Renegades, Tyranids all use the same system, you very strongly risk losing the interest of the players (or the GM) in what they're fighting. If they're not special any more, why do I care what they are? I feel you risk hitting the point where you're rolling dice for the sake of rolling dice - at that point just narrate that the party kills everyone and move on.

You also, oddly, are still using the full stat system, you're just arbitrarily setting them at a series of predetermined values (1 high, 1 medium, rest low). If you goal is simplicity, why not just set all their stats at the same value, like Void Crew are? You've also only provided a method of killing them, with no application to how they interact with non-combat situations or even how they attack. How well does a minion scribe research? Do they use the regular rules for that?

Your system also requires completely changing (rather than eliminating) the stats of a creature or being that is probably already stated out in one of the books, or could be created prior to game time. And this is done to a listing that is not tied to anything other than itself, so it has no basis in the system.

Even ignoring that i'll likely create as much front-work as is saves on the back end, most of your levels are ridiculously low. An autogun (a rather pathetic weapon for a RT) does 1d10+3, so it can't fail to kill lows (why do these even exist then?) and almost can't fail against mids. Bolters (which any RT should have) can't fail against mids, and will kill highs almost as easily. There is no such thing as a challenge with these guys.

I wouldn't want to deal with 30, even with your rules. Not because of wound track, but because I don't want to roll the dice 30 times. I find dice take up a lot more table time then tracking does. This is why I use Horde rules, as I noted in the first post.

P.S. I never claimed to provide FFG's logic, or that FFG's system was flawless. Indeed, what I offered was an alternate house rule .

I think you missed the actual gist of what the defined / intent of "minion" here:

The minion role is designed as a disposable front-line combatant appearing in large numbers in an encounter. Four minions are roughly equivalent to a standard monster of the same level.

Minions take no damage from missed attacks, even if the attack normally deals damage on a miss. A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of damage, however. Due to this special property, attacks that sacrifice damage for accuracy, deal damage without an attack roll, deal damage to multiple targets, or create damaging zones can all help a party overcome minions.

As for the "interest" factor you mention; that's why I incorporate a gimmick or two when I create minions...

The gimmick is a special ability - in most cases - a combat mechanic that inspires the PCs to resolve the matter thru tactics and guile rather than just rolling dice and declaring targets (I agree, that's boring - especially with a mind focused on long term replay-ability).

In this way the gimmick is a device that a GM can use in order to both challenge and keep the PCs on their toes - as to avoid total and utter predictability from foes (I use gimmicks on non-minions too).

Again if one wants to play a game that's a simulator (accounting for lots of detail) then that's fine, but I opt for Pulp play where only certain foes, and targets count.

When I read for instance the novel Commissar (i tend to read non-Astartes novels BTW); a lot of the foes in the book were nobodies (aka Scrubs I wont take the time to stat out and track all their metrics like a standard foe) - rather in that novel you had a few "underling-criminals" who matter and who could contend with the main character and the people in his retinue.

Its kinda hard herein to illustrate my point - but the logic remains sound across any RPG system where "combat" is expected let alone may incorporate large skirmishes to wholesale wars!

If you wanted to split hairs on it - then try saying a 14 AR foe with +3 (tacked on for armor) totally a value of AR 17 for the minion is "easy" to kill - if it is for you, then such ability smacks of power gaming which I am not an advocate of...

That's in a single blow / hit; so all that auto fire will mean jack if the base damage is too low (like with las pistols and rifles; 12 to 13 max damage = d10+2 / d10+3)

At the end of the day if/when my PCs become "high level" I want them to walk away with a grand sense of accomplishment especially in a galaxy at war they're "kill-count" should be as I once heard the setting described as Futuristic Psychotic aka the Imperium of Man...

Though I understand you point Quicksilver your way just isn't for me herein on this topic, no biggie - though I was actually hoping for support on my ruleset herein rather than just an abandonment of my intent LOL

Anyhow I enjoy the insight and learn well from your perspectives

Thanks and Stay Gaming Everyone!

Morbid

I do see what your doing, and it does make more sense with your subsequent explanation. Despite your statements to the contrary, I do actually agree with the principle behind what you're doing. I'm just not sure you're actually going to accomplish that with this system. Have you tested this system?

Also, I'm not sure how you count 'power gaming' or 'high level play' but in Rogue Trader a plasma gun is within reach as starting equipment, with a base damage of 1d10+10 pen 7 damage. (The pistol version is actually a base starting option for the Rogue Trader career) And that's without using the overcharge function.

You still haven't answered a number of my questions as to why you don't use even stats at each level, how they attack, or any similar consideration. I also still think you're threshold values are low given the starting equipment of a Rogue Trader. Rogue Trader's don't use lasgun and autoguns. There's no guidance about what "gimmick" should be given to a minion. What you've presented is more of a shell than a complete system.

Sounds to much like Rifts and Pathfinder to me. Use the KISS method MorbidDon. Minion rules are already in BC, and your system really does take all the specifics from the opponents. Your lumping Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, and Humans all in the same category, which takes all their weakness and strengths away from them. You are also changing so many rules, and adding so many others. So very confusing, IMHO. I would play test this with different NPC opponents, and then ask your players to play test it with you before getting to more into it. If everyone likes it, then disregard what we all said, and continue to work on it. Wish you the best of luck no matter what though.

There are minions in 4th edition D&D they can be quite neat in an encounter with their single hit point and never taking damage on a miss but they are personalized. A goblin minion isn't the same as a human minion or even another type of goblin minion.

I think that variety is required to avoid copy/paste fights.

I tried the Quicksilver method few days ago. I liked it. But my players disliked it. I don't have words in english but, let's say that "they disliked it" is a very polite formula.

They miss the big score, my Archmilitant miss the "big gun effect" and the Rt argued that a las pistol and a plasma pistol have the same effect (and this is not true) and so there is no use in buying high grade weapon...

That was a fight with 25 primitive men hanging clubs. There is no way i count the HP of all these future dead corpse.

Anyway, as a GM i liked to use your houserule.

Hey Gamers,

Lets play split hairs, shall we?

OK firstly name me from any Novel the countless drudgery and flunkies thrown at Protagonists (from Commissars to Space Marines) - out of all those kills what did the individual matter?

At the end of the day they (being minions) still can dole out standard damage - so their threat still a present concern (by my rules).

Lets do some logistics - why don't you throw down 20 to 40 "minions" all vanilla fully stated out omitting my rules - then come back and tell me how long that one battle took you and your players to negotiate - using all vanilla rules.

More than likely it'll mire your game in one long fight, that depending on your players could take hours to the whole game session in real life.

Maybe that's what you like - a big prolonged battle royal, if so then my rules are not for you!

Points to Focus On

Why do nameless minions matter? (are you gonna give each one a dramatic back story as well?! LOL)

If they offer the same level of offensive threat (due to damage and attacks and whatever else), how is that not a challenge?

Logistics; do you really like math that much to stat out 20 to 40 minions and then track them all?

As for Xenos minions - like the Orks and Eldar and Tyranid...

Just stat it up one grade (make Orks a value of 14; then see how easy a group of em are to kill)

Lets say for sake of argument that the "highest AVERAGE Damage" in the game of RT is 2D10 (omitting modifiers)

<I'm not here to argue whats the least or most damage, so moving on>

Some real basic math; ok that 2d10 against a value of 14 (20 - 14 = 6)

20 into 100 equals 5, 6 x 5 = 30%

Now that's not exactly by any means but a rough 30% chance to kill a minion with a 2d10 weapon (mars pistol comes to mind) aint all that great - though apparently possible...

I'm comfortable with that...

That same Ork is then immune to being killed by basic Las Guns (pistol 1d10+2, rifle d10+3, long las = needs two or more successes to get a +d10 for a total of 2d10+3 ~ go figure)... not too shabby if you ask me.

Same for your basic power sword (aint it just d10 + STR Bonus), good luck kill my Ork Minions with that! LOL

Maybe you guys would rather have me stat out exactly what is what for sake of argument here?

It...seems a little odd to me. The 40k RPG combat system revels in the small details: The gory critical hit tables, the varying tactical options for placement and cover, the multiple useful actions - stun, knock down, disarm - and so on. There's a reason why I always run large combat as being a bunch of minions and a bunch of enemy minions fighting while the PCs take on the big, interesting bad guys, with a few command checks to see how the minions fight, with bonuses for good roleplaying and tactical thinking.

Interesting Bad Guys are not minions... lol

I'd say it all comes down to a matter of personal preferences. Like so many other things in how we can interpret and/or represent things that happen in the rules and the narration, somehow connecting the two. So, we'll probably have a dozen different "levels" in between individual NPCs and Hordes where we see the ideal when it comes to groups of mooks.

My own two cents: MorbidDon absolutely has a point when he says that standard combat rules just don't work when applied to larger groups. His proposed rules are an elegant way of allowing a GM to "wield" multiple minions by distilling their presence in the game mechanics down to a minimum, thus speeding up combat resolution. For what he set out to achieve, these rules should work nicely.

On the other hand, Nameless2All also has a point when he says that it's anonymising these targets a lot. In a way, they become a background element that relies entirely on the GM making up details required to preserve immersion on the fly. This should not be a problem for most GMs, but at this level of "facelessness" I find myself asking: why not just use Horde rules? Is it just because the creator does not have access to Deathwatch and Black Crusade, where they are detailed as part of the RAW?

In my opinion, characters that are so few in number that they do not constitute a "Swarm" may as well (or perhaps even should) be statted individually using the official rules (plus Sudden Death option), whereas Swarms may as well be represented by Hordes as they seem to share the same level of abstraction. For an approach between these two extremes, I'll rather continue working on my own take on the subject.

It's not like I couldn't see some situational use for rules such as these, but when it comes to taking out just two guards who are considered so unimportant that they don't deserve proper stats, the GM may just as well describe how they get killed as a narrative event, rather than demanding any rolls.

Interesting Bad Guys are not minions... lol

I think what he means is that he would like to see the minions's actions and condition described in greater detail as part of a mechanic to create an immersive background for a fight, whilst the PCs are fighting the "Interesting Bad Guys" who are statted as per the RAW.

There may not be many novels in 40k that care much for any individuals aside from the 1-2 main protagonists (although, Gaunt's Ghosts spring to mind), but that doesn't mean that you cannot use a certain level of individuality to add "weight" to how a minion performs next to you, or against you. Battletech novels are a good example for this, as far as fiction is concerned.

Update...

So in the spirit of "using Horde Rules" I reanalyzed the materials from all the source material (I think Deathwatch & Black Crusade Core + one Other Book that introduced New Horde Tactics - I forgot which one tho lol)

Anyways here's the change I made in using Hordes

Horde Damage:

Excerpt "Massive Hordes"

Massive hordes

The Magnitude of a Horde is an abstract number which can represent dozens of foes or thousands; however regardless of the actual number of enemies within a Horde, the Magnitude broadly represents both how deadly it is and how difficult it is to kill.

Most Hordes will range in Magnitude from 10–40, which in most cases will present a good challenge and a reasonable threat to the players. It is of course entirely possible to have Magnitudes much higher than this, such as 60 or 70 or more.

While a Horde with such a large Magnitude will take the players longer to destroy and have more ranged attacks, there is a cap of how much extra damage a Horde can dish out (a maximum of +2d10 for Hordes of magnitude 20+, or by the House Rule of +20 Static Damage ).

For this reason it is often better to have two smaller Hordes working together rather than one larger one.

Excerpt "Damaging a Horde "

DAMAGING A HORDE
• Each hit that causes any amount of damage reduces a Horde’s Magnitude by one.

Therefore, an attack that, after accounting for armor and Toughness Bonus, causes 15 points of damage reduces the Horde’s Magnitude by 1.

At the end of the day I prefer a static damage bonus rather than a capped maximum of +2d10 (something along the lines of divide by 10 and other junk LOL).

By that distinction - the lowliest Horde Type the Mob has a MAG of 30, so all Hordes do +2d10 damage by default until reduced down to less than 10 MAG - no thanks, I didnt like that...

Perhaps I'm reading / performing the math wrong, please correct me if I am (low end vs. high end "vanilla" damage bonus)

Otherwise, feel free to contact me if you want the portfolio which includes both the vanilla rules plus the house rules found herein

Stay GAMING

Morbid