The Decimator has the first dial to have no reds.

The Decimator not having reds is irrelevant.

Irrelevant to what? It's a first.

Technically, yes

In reality, I have never experienced a turreted ship ever having to K-turn (title-less YT-2400s excepted) so that part of the dial is completely irrelevant until the front arc starts to matter (autothrusters, maybe)

On the Falcon, the K-turn is there in the clutch. I was playing in the final round of a tournament with an elite x-wing list vs double Falcon. It was down to the wire and the Falcon with only a couple points left did a flip to get better position the next turn. It was a risky maneuver, but it worked and he won the game.

It's not something you'll use much, but it's an option if you need it.

Look at a Lambda and then tell me red maneuver = K-turn.

Oh, that

As much as I wish there were more drawbacks to what is a very bulky and (in appearance only, don't know the lore) unwieldy heavy ship, it was billed as the imperial falcon so I'm not surprised the dial came out very similar (minus the sharp ones and k-turn)

Honestly, I think FFG's been trying too hard to make interesting dials. Wave 4 and 5 are interesting in the number of ships that have their greens at speed 2 while the 1s are white. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, at least IMHO, except as a very artificial step away from "slow and straight = green".

Slow isn't always easy for aircraft at least. Most planes have a minimum speed they can go before stalling, and the wider the turn the easier to do (which is why tight 1's are usually harder than tight 2's and 3's)

Now in a vacuum obviously stalling isn't an issue but you do have inertia, and for a high performance fighter like the E-Wing it might require a bit of the pilot's attention to slow his craft right down to do a 1 bank or 1 straight

That was rather enlightening in a way. Certainly not quite what I expected to be sure. And as someone already mentioned I think the word 'interesting' got lost in translation somewhere. To define it further I should have added some functionals to the term. For me 'interesting' starts with the special things it can do, Like Bombers K-turn at 5 stands out. But then it ends with how is that paired to things it cant do. Like the Bomber is nigh incapable of making a comfortable turn until speed three. So its ponderous slow turn radius matched to an incredibly long fast turn to me makes it fly 'interesting'. That's before you examine what the ship has to offer in it's other stats and abilities.

The opposite of that is what we as gamers see in the mechanical possibility of the newer dials and confuse 'interesting' for what is really just 'usability' or 'functionality'. It's a trap many designers and gamers easily fall into as creep rears it's ugly head in it's insidious fashion. I could look at the Aggressors dial and say sure, that's interesting that it has all those options available to it. Afterall, nothing before it has. Because as a gamer, I am thinking about what I can do with it, and those thoughts excite me. But when I stop a moment and think of what I have paid to get these faux interesting options I must face that I haven't really paid anything at all. The dial has no trading going on between flaws and benefits. Therefore the Dial has no interplay into and of itself. It has lost the 'interesting' quality. If it were to be described more appropriately, it would be 'intriguing' or even 'attractive'. There's no dichotomy to make it 'interesting' though.

Same thing with my Outrider. Not only did I pick up a move over the Falcon, (hmm, something unique I can do in comparison) but I gained the Barrel Roll to even further enhance my options. But what did I pay? Really nothing. A blind spot? What's really the blind spot to off set? The power of the gun, right? But when I go back to the Dial, it gave me literally every option to cover my own weakness of the blind spot. (okay, where's the big flaw?) When calculating the final end positions of the Outrider with PTL and Engine Up, you get a number surprisingly close to a Phantoms total options between De-Cloak, Maneuver, and Barrel Roll. Even while stressed there's around 75+ positions you can get to with Greens, Boosts, and Rolls alone. (Please feel free to calculate it for me, was counting very roughly in my head.) A PS of 7 is suppose to make that 'Interesting'? I think not, that makes it a build question to me.

For it to be interesting in my definition, for exploration purposes, It would have lost the 1-straight entirely, the 1-tight would have to be Red,(quick aside, same on the Falcon honestly) and the K-turn would be at like 5 for bizareness or whatever. Then the combination of my minimum speeds and angles and how I need to use the Roll to compensate while spinning this big giant gun around become 'interesting'.

Somebody mentioned a ship with no straights. I think the Phantom would have been a perfect candidate. How much more interesting then the decision between Echo and Whisper? Echo could then at least fake going straight, but despite Whispers Pilot Skill he would still be following classic Phantom rules. I have to assume that while flying a Phantom in the Star Wars 'verse, once your cloak re-engages you don't keep flying straight for fear of enemies strafing your last seen flight path, hoping to simply score hits by tracking the shots out. If my cloak had to go back up, you can bet I would be turning away in some random direction. So why doesn't it in X-wing? Sure the Cloak move is interesting in and of itself, but when combined with a standard TIE dial with a single mostly irrelevant change it's not interesting, its appealing.

It really does bother me that my YT-2400 light freighter can outmaneuver an A-Wing.

This is something I have noticed, too. And I think it's a shame. Mostly, because having red manoeuvres adds something special to the game: interesting decisions. There's a risk involved and that's exciting... will you pull it off?

And having certain manoeuvres missing is also interesting as you have to work extra hard to keep the upper hand in positioning. If you have missing manoeuvres, you have to think ahead and again you get risk and excitement.

That's why I've never liked the Falcon's dial and am disappointed FFG made the same mistake again with the YT-1300...

Well of course the dials were more differentiated in the early days - there were fewer of them. I think it's fine to have dials that are good at a, dials that are good at b, dials that are good and b & c, dials that are good at a & c, etc. Just having more options doesn't make it uninsteresting - Many Options Ship is just as interesting a type as Few Options Ship.

When the starviper was being spoiled I had hoped that it would have no straight manuvers except maybe a straight four... Imagine the skill you would need to pilot that thing

I think the dial on its own for most ships isn't that interesting, but as part of the ship/list as a whole and the direction I want to build it it is. Take the IG88, ptl seems like a blatantly obvious choice with all the green, but if I take 88D and plan to use the super segnors with regularity ptls stock drops hard. If I combine it with 88C and advanced sensors I am encouraged to boost regularly and get some echo-level weird manoeuvres going. The fact that the ships build can range anywhere from "turtle" to "echo" is very interesting and only really possible thanks to the dial.

The Aggressor traded away green hard turns to have the rest of its moves be green. Not being to turn your ship 90 degrees and clear stress seems like a pretty big drawback to me. Sure you can bank and then boost, but that's a very wide turn and you're giving up your action for the turn as well.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/132883-cartel-spacer-pilot-card/

Styx dial just got mined

discuss

Nope, so far I am amazed at how FFG is able to make each ship's dial feel unique in the game. I guess it's not that surprising when you actually count up all the different possible maneuvers available in this game (currently 105 different maneuvers with just 11 templates!) Even ships with similar dials, like the Z-95, E-Wing and X-Wing, have slight differences that make them play differently, specifically the different speed k-turns and different speed green bank maneuvers, and the 5 straight on the E-Wing. Even the YT-2400 and YT-1300 which have nearly identical dials, have a key difference in the 3-turn, a maneuver that the YT-1300 rarely uses because it wants to stay at range 1, while the YT-2400 wants to use lot so it can create more space for it's HLC. And even with PTL, the YT-2400 can still get 2 actions a turn while having access to it's white maneuvers every other turn.

Whenever FFG gives 2 ships a very similar dial, they make sure that other aspects of those ships are very different so that the same dial will be used very differently. A-Wings and Interceptors have almost identical dials, but they use them very differently because of A-Wings having better generic Pilots while Interceptors rely on high PS and PTL. The same can be said about TIE Fighters and Phantoms, TIE Advanced and Firesprays, etc.

Even looking at the Aggressor and Starviper, they look they should play just like Interceptors with those 3 attack and 3 agility with native boost and barrel roll action (starviper), but then you realize there's no green turn maneuvers on either ships, something that the Interceptor heavily relies on to clear its stress from PTL. Each new ship is a new puzzle that, even though it might look similar to what we've seen before, is it's own puzzle to figure out how to best utilize the dial with the ship's abilities.

Yeah I was shocked the 1st time I flew Z-95s at how much different they handle from X-Wings.

This is something I have noticed, too. And I think it's a shame. Mostly, because having red manoeuvres adds something special to the game: interesting decisions. There's a risk involved and that's exciting... will you pull it off?

And having certain manoeuvres missing is also interesting as you have to work extra hard to keep the upper hand in positioning. If you have missing manoeuvres, you have to think ahead and again you get risk and excitement.

That's why I've never liked the Falcon's dial and am disappointed FFG made the same mistake again with the YT-1300...

Yeah I feel both the YT-1300 and the Firespray could use some red turns in there (maybe make 'em a point cheaper or so). Heck taking away the green banks would have been interesting as well.

I would have preferred to have more maneuvering constraints as it would make for more interesting decisions.

On the other hand, watching the movies, if the Falcon can't do a 1 turn, nothing can. The freaking thing out turns TIE Fighters,

I think the development team thought the big base would be a bigger drawback than it actually was, so they were very liberal with the dial.

Oh and I pulled a K-Turn with my Falcon at least once. I was pointing the wrong way with the side of the board on one side and an asteroid on other while my B-Wing was taking on a Decimator by itself behind me. I was in a good position to finish the Decimator and the only way I could have lost was if I lost the Falcon and I didn't want to risk the rocks.

It really does bother me that my YT-2400 light freighter can outmaneuver an A-Wing.

That has more to do with the effect of large bases on movement. Oh, and upgrades like engine and pilot skills like Monsieur Rendar's. If we're just comparing dials, I think the A-Wing still has the better one.

When I first saw the Decimator dial I was disappointed. Since then, with a lot of real practice, I've noticed that the Decimators trash the YT2400 very well. The Rebel Captive or Mara Jade + the longer moves on the Decimator make it impossible for the YT2400 to stay out of the Decimator's R1 or ramming area at all. Love this game.

...while some ships in more recent releases are still that way, like the TIE Defender, others as he claimed quite poetically are "Whitewashed". His complaint was that too many of the ships aren't restrictive enough on the dials design.

And I had to agree with him. My favorite ship the Outrider can perform every maneuver speed one through three, goes four straight, and has a K-turn to boot.

I agree that the Outrider's dial is both good and bland. Ditto the Decimator, really.

The Aggressor that is coming out is another example where it not only has some nine green moves, three special turn moves, five actually with a certain list build, it is only missing the 3-turn, and 4-straight moves. In all seriousness, it wont really be 'missing' those moves at all with the options available to it. Quite interesting.

I do think it's an interesting dial, though. It's so good that it's unprecedented, and it also has brand-new maneuvers on it.

Phantom too, only losing a 5-straight over the basic TIE fighter, after receiving the benefit of cloaking technology. Again, not really losing much, or making the ship very 'interesting' in the way it flies.

The Phantom has plenty of interesting-ness without having a groundbreaking dial as well.

I've been pondering his commentary for a week now and would like to open the forum to a thread on the subject. In response to the above comments, how do you respond?

My last response is that (as far as I know) FFG hasn't made the dials for the Starviper and Scyk public yet, so we can't talk about those--but I suspect they're going to be more on the "interesting" side of things. I think overall there's more to be done with Scum dials than Rebel and Imperial dials, if only because so much territory has already been mined for the original factions (and, more to the point, so many precedents already set).

The Scyk dial has been found. It is rather underwhelming.

I think they're about as interesting as they can be, barring something crazy that doesn't make a ton of sense - like something with speed 1 and 3 moves, but no speed 2 moves or only left turns. (pre- S-loop)

There's surprisingly not a lot of design space to dials as they are now - there could be more... how many maneuvers are there total, not counting color? It's limited by templates. If we look at the extremes 5 k, 1k, 1 straight, and 1 turn - those are the moves people are most interested in, the 1k turn is only available to tetran cowell. 2 speed seems to be the standard to which everything has access, and the maneuvers generally are somewhat filled in, with banks often coming with straights at speed 2 and 3.

What kind of interesting dial can you make, and have it feel super different, while giving a ship enough options to move about? Consider a slow dial, all 1's and a 3 k-turn - nothing else. Can that ship survive in this game? I think they've done a fairly astonishing job given the number of ships (21 with scum) - already some of the dials are overlapping, x-wing and z-95. The placement of the greens and k-turn helps distinguish the ships, but they fly very similar - but they should, being historically linked. The ties are also somewhat similar.

I hope they continue to innovate with some new S maneuvers (combining multiple templates together) , the problem is those maneuvers could be too wild for the older ships to keep up with. I'd hope that if we ever 10 years down the road, see some kind of V2.0 - that the number and type of templates is increased.

I do agree that it feels like a lot of ships now can simply do everything. These light freighters are flying circles around Y-Wing fighters. It's pretty silly.

I feel they've made an error at the very start of the game by not including templates for 4 and 5 turns and banks. To add them now would really diminish the Interceptors and A-Wings so it's too late now, but that would've really opened up the dial space.

And I had to agree with him. My favorite ship the Outrider can perform every maneuver speed one through three, goes four straight, and has a K-turn to boot. For all those moves only the K-turn is red. The Y-wing wishes it had that dial. The Aggressor that is coming out is another example where it not only has some nine green moves, three special turn moves, five actually with a certain list build, it is only missing the 3-turn, and 4-straight moves. In all seriousness, it wont really be 'missing' those moves at all with the options available to it. Quite interesting. Phantom too, only losing a 5-straight over the basic TIE fighter, after receiving the benefit of cloaking technology. Again, not really losing much, or making the ship very 'interesting' in the way it flies.

Of all the examples you chose, you went for those three? Not the E-wing, Z-95, X-wing or M-3A?

The flying challenges don't always come from the dial, and you picked the main three examples of this.

The Aggressor has block green because it's meant to: that's its strength. It's an arced large based ship that presents a unique challenge: it's not cheap like the Lambda and thus you need to maneuver it like crazy to get your points worth. It also comes with the new Segnor loops and a normal K-turn, can be paired with Advanced Sensors for all sorts of strange maneuvering shenanigans.

The Outrider has a normal, if pretty good dial, but it's got a boost/barrel variant and is constantly dancing around to protect its uniquely shaped arc (360 with a blind spot in the middle).

The phantom has a watered down TIE fighter dial, and decloak. Like the Aggressor it flies like nothing else in the game.

On the E-wing and Z-95 they moved the greens to speed 2 after realising how good 1 speed maneuvers are, which makes stress a more serious consideration for them than it is for the X-wing: destressing usually puts you somewhere you don't want to be.

I feel they've made an error at the very start of the game by not including templates for 4 and 5 turns and banks.

Mentally bend a three turn straight and you'll see why they didn't. Five turns would be insanely fast, would beg the question "why can't they go that fast in a straight line" and you get the seven straight. Then someone asks why you don't have a seven turn...