What's up Holonet? I've noticed something. I recently helped organize a twitch stream of our first local Store Championship in Atlanta. By the way, thanks to all who tuned I . There will be more streams in the very near future. Among the many comments we got about the games, one thing was asked more than anything. We streamed Nine games over the day, five of which featured a Decimator, and the final, which featured Super Dash. There was also a Firespray in one of the Decimator battles. The thing that people asked the most is:

Why do none of these large bases have Engine Upgrade?

The only one out of the many that were shown was Super Dash. And I thought about it. It's simply not that common a tactic in our meta. All of us in the competitive scene watched the World Championship, many of us have a frequent presence here on the forums. But really the only large bases you see here often with EU are Super Dash and the Lambda Shuttle. I do know there was also one at least one Falcon build that had EU that did not show on the stream, but I asked around.

Most players seem to think it's a waste of points on already expensive ships. I expect I know what your responses will be, but what say you too that? Is it safe to play a Decimator without EU? Two Decimator players reached the top eight in a 36 player tournament, both without EU. It's certainly a good upgrade considering the distance you cover with your large base, our local meta seems to think it's not all that necessary in general.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to argue either point. I just think that the disparity is interesting between the prevailing knowledge and the local meta. Thoughts?

I guess it depends on the phantoms in your meta. It can be necessary to maintain good shots, but for the most part its just to make it so that only one ship per turn can hit you, denying the numbers game. Honestly their dials are so good it can seem like a waste sometimes, just because it can literally do just about anything with its dial.

secondly if you're going with a falcon, I think alot of people think you should go all in, and what other modification would you take? Hull and shield are rather wasteful, stealth ruins c3p0.

thirdly there's the deathstar factor. This is a term I use in the war hammer sense, where you put the majority or almost all of the list into a single nearly unkillable unit to deny the opponent as many victory points as possible. The large Hans, dashs, and decimators have that effect in x wing, as them limping off with 1-2 hp at the end of the game can deny 40-60 points.

I play Oicunn a lot, no engine upgrade and with rebel captive, the phantoms do not like shooting at it!

To me, EU is super nice to have, but not a need to have.

I fly without it most of the time and it is rare that I find myself to be missing it, but I do miss it on occasion.

EU, if there is room to place it, is great on higher PS large ships. If you can boost out of a firing arch, that's less damage it will be taking; thus staying on the board longer.

I would not take EU over adding an additional ship to my list though.

Since Engine Upgrade only comes with the Falcon and those have been hard to get in some areas for a while (looks like that is changing though) could that be responsible for it not being a common upgrade in your area? If you've got a lot of players in your area that have recently started playing they are going to have had Decimators, Lamdas, and Outriders available to them but might not bave been able to get their hands on a Falcon.

I'm a little disappointed that it looks like it will be at least Wave 7 before Engine Upgrade comes with anything other than the Falcon.

If most of what you are seeing in your area are two ship builds, I don't think Engine Upgrade is as big of a deal on Fat Turrets as it would be in one that Swarms and 4+ ship builds are popular.

I won't ever take the Rear Admiral or Kenkirk without it. It has kept me alive far longer than I should have been. Preventing shots completely or denying majority of my opponents ships a shot. I find it, for me at least, completely mandatory on my Decimator builds. Only time I would consider not taking it is on Oicunn or the Patrol Leader.

Played against an Echo, and I was using the Rear Admiral. He de-cloaked and moved before me. My maneuver brought me directly in front of him at range one. So I simply boosted out of his arc, and completely denied him a shot saving myself from potentially five hits on my hull. Ever since then, I always take it.

Having EU on oicunn allowed to block a phantom decloack this week-end. It is worth it on all decimators in my mind.

I've done well with admiral Cheerios without engine upgrade, but talk in another thread gas convinced me that I should give it a try, so we'll see.

Anything with a Heavy Laser Cannon needs it so that it can get out of range 1 to fire. This is especially true for Super Dash since he can't fire his primary weapon usually due to the title.

Anything with a Heavy Laser Cannon needs it so that it can get out of range 1 to fire. This is especially true for Super Dash since he can't fire his primary weapon usually due to the title.

Dash is the only ship that would boost to get out of range 1 to fire. Anyone else boosting out of range one won't have an arc on the ship they're boosting away from?

Anything with a Heavy Laser Cannon needs it so that it can get out of range 1 to fire. This is especially true for Super Dash since he can't fire his primary weapon usually due to the title.

Dash is the only ship that would boost to get out of range 1 to fire. Anyone else boosting out of range one won't have an arc on the ship they're boosting away from?

in the context of large ships that's only the shuttle. The other 4 have turrets or rear arcs so not exactly (for this thread). Also it would boost out of range one, and potentially out of another ships arc. Which is the primary use of it due to the ground covered

Anything with a Heavy Laser Cannon needs it so that it can get out of range 1 to fire. This is especially true for Super Dash since he can't fire his primary weapon usually due to the title.

Dash is the only ship that would boost to get out of range 1 to fire. Anyone else boosting out of range one won't have an arc on the ship they're boosting away from?

in the context of large ships that's only the shuttle. The other 4 have turrets or rear arcs so not exactly (for this thread). Also it would boost out of range one, and potentially out of another ships arc. Which is the primary use of it due to the ground covered

Of the top of my head only a YT-2400, Krassis, a Heavy Scyk or someone rolling with Jonus has any real incentive to get out of range one so that they can use their HLC. Of those only a YT-2400 is going to be able to use a boost to get out of range one and still have a shot.

I guess a three attack ship with something like the Weapon Malfunction crit would want to get out of range 1 to use the HLC.

It really depends on the type of list the players are flying their Deci with, and they way they want to fly it. Say you are running Soontir + Deci, you can either play it by ramming with your Deci and using as bait while Soontir flanks, or you can use both ships set up as flankers, denying shots to both ships rather than just one or the other. In the latter, you'd take Engine since your goal is to reduce total incoming fire in general, rather than deter from one ship.

Without Engine. You can still play with the sme mindset, but you have no post dial placement way of preventing shots. I guess part of it is determined by the upgrades you want to run. If you want to use something that requires actions, then you'd have no room for Engine.

Anything with a Heavy Laser Cannon needs it so that it can get out of range 1 to fire. This is especially true for Super Dash since he can't fire his primary weapon usually due to the title.

Dash is the only ship that would boost to get out of range 1 to fire. Anyone else boosting out of range one won't have an arc on the ship they're boosting away from?

in the context of large ships that's only the shuttle. The other 4 have turrets or rear arcs so not exactly (for this thread). Also it would boost out of range one, and potentially out of another ships arc. Which is the primary use of it due to the ground covered

Of the top of my head only a YT-2400, Krassis, a Heavy Scyk or someone rolling with Jonus has any real incentive to get out of range one so that they can use their HLC. Of those only a YT-2400 is going to be able to use a boost to get out of range one and still have a shot.

I guess a three attack ship with something like the Weapon Malfunction crit would want to get out of range 1 to use the HLC.

the incentive is the return shot. A 2-3 ship list should think about living first then shooting better. If its a one hull point b wing that's one think, but a full health x wing you won't kill most likely with 4 dice, so you boost to take less damage.

Anything with a Heavy Laser Cannon needs it so that it can get out of range 1 to fire. This is especially true for Super Dash since he can't fire his primary weapon usually due to the title.

Dash is the only ship that would boost to get out of range 1 to fire. Anyone else boosting out of range one won't have an arc on the ship they're boosting away from?

in the context of large ships that's only the shuttle. The other 4 have turrets or rear arcs so not exactly (for this thread). Also it would boost out of range one, and potentially out of another ships arc. Which is the primary use of it due to the ground covered

Of the top of my head only a YT-2400, Krassis, a Heavy Scyk or someone rolling with Jonus has any real incentive to get out of range one so that they can use their HLC. Of those only a YT-2400 is going to be able to use a boost to get out of range one and still have a shot.

I guess a three attack ship with something like the Weapon Malfunction crit would want to get out of range 1 to use the HLC.

the incentive is the return shot. A 2-3 ship list should think about living first then shooting better. If its a one hull point b wing that's one think, but a full health x wing you won't kill most likely with 4 dice, so you boost to take less damage.

That's a totally different conversation. What was being disputed was the claim:

"Anything with a Heavy Laser Cannon needs it so that it can get out of range 1 to fire."

Did you notice how quickly several of those decimators got pounded to death? You NEED EU so it doesnt die to just random bwing/z-95/ w/e stuff that will always be around. Everyone makes a big deal over ysanne isard, and she IS good, but she gives you one evade (granted it's free) where boosting out of one shot gets 3 fewer dice or w/e thrown in your face. And what if you get out of multiple arcs in one boost. That's most likely only going to happen against a swarm or again and bunch of zs or something, but that is also the bane of decimators/falcons.

Now the problem is you need to PS to go with it. Yes even oicunn can avoid ps 2 stuff (though talas are common), but it is nice to have the ability on a ps 10 chir to even avoid phantoms. There was a falcon doing experimental interface + lando, that died to tie swarm in the closing minutes. If they played that game with engine upgrade and r2-d2 or gunner or w/e, it's very likely a different story. And he missed the top 8 while the han with EU didnt. Yes a couple decimators made it to top 8, but that's mostly just because there were like 12 of them or however many in the building. It's still a good ship regardless.

Fun fact about that tournament (at least I'm fairly certain this is correct without going back and watching again) :

There were a total of 5 decimators on the stream (the games actually shown)

0 had engine upgrade

4 were destroyed (in fact the players lost all these games)

1 survived in a win against the kid that finished 30 something

It's important.

You haven't lived until you have Boosted off the free evade Isard gives you, using PTL.

To do that at the beginning of the combat phase almost feels like cheating.

Did you notice how quickly several of those decimators got pounded to death? You NEED EU so it doesnt die to just random bwing/z-95/ w/e stuff that will always be around. Everyone makes a big deal over ysanne isard, and she IS good, but she gives you one evade (granted it's free) where boosting out of one shot gets 3 fewer dice or w/e thrown in your face. And what if you get out of multiple arcs in one boost. That's most likely only going to happen against a swarm or again and bunch of zs or something, but that is also the bane of decimators/falcons.

Now the problem is you need to PS to go with it. Yes even oicunn can avoid ps 2 stuff (though talas are common), but it is nice to have the ability on a ps 10 chir to even avoid phantoms. There was a falcon doing experimental interface + lando, that died to tie swarm in the closing minutes. If they played that game with engine upgrade and r2-d2 or gunner or w/e, it's very likely a different story. And he missed the top 8 while the han with EU didnt. Yes a couple decimators made it to top 8, but that's mostly just because there were like 12 of them or however many in the building. It's still a good ship regardless.

Fun fact about that tournament (at least I'm fairly certain this is correct without going back and watching again) :

There were a total of 5 decimators on the stream (the games actually shown)

0 had engine upgrade

4 were destroyed (in fact the players lost all these games)

1 survived in a win against the kid that finished 30 something

It's important.

There are many large base ships that are going to need it and for several reasons:

Reason one: Arc dodging. Every ship loves arc-dodging, large base ships are better at it because of the distance they cover, and because of the high point cost of large ships they are generally out-numbered. Great against any fixed arc ship, especially swarms of them.

Reason two: On a ship with a pilot skill greater than 7, the name of the game is invading super dash's corn-hole. Gotta get into that corn-hole.

Reason three: Against Phantoms, sometimes you need EU just to get them in arc. And if you can't shoot at them, you are gonna have a bad time.

So, basically engine upgrade is good against Swarms, Dash, and Phantoms. That covers a lot of angles for 4 points.

Oh I definitely see the benefits. I want trying to argue either way, just pointing out the observation. It's just interesting to me that the prevailing knowledge is that it's almost a must have, whereas locally, it's really rare. I'll update my OP to reflect that.

You haven't lived until you have Boosted off the free evade Isard gives you, using PTL.

To do that at the beginning of the combat phase almost feels like cheating.

Yes, a guy did that to me last week.

Bloody brilliant, that.

And annoying.

I would not run a decimator or shuttle without it. On the Deci, it greatly increases survivalability. I also like expert handling, which is cheaper and just as awesome on a large base ship. I especially like EH on a firespray, as you can shift both of your arcs laterally.

I would not run a decimator or shuttle without it. On the Deci, it greatly increases survivalability. I also like expert handling, which is cheaper and just as awesome on a large base ship. I especially like EH on a firespray, as you can shift both of your arcs laterally.

The stress and the fact that it eats up the EPT slot has always kept me away from Expert Handling.

I would not run a decimator or shuttle without it. On the Deci, it greatly increases survivalability. I also like expert handling, which is cheaper and just as awesome on a large base ship. I especially like EH on a firespray, as you can shift both of your arcs laterally.

The stress and the fact that it eats up the EPT slot has always kept me away from Expert Handling.

Agreed. The EPT would get more use if it didn't cause stress.