A dragon is in the middle of a 2x6 hallway. How many MP would it cost him to turn around?

I'm guessing 1, but since his front "half" could round to his 1/3 or 2/3, I could see the arguement that it would be 2. This means, to me at least, that If he found himself in a dead end he couldn't turn around (?). It must be 1 MP right?

snacknuts said:

No, none.
DJitD page 4
The direction a figure is facing has no effect in the game.

Just turn him around 180degrees for free and then move normally

We've been playing that a 2x1 figure costs 1 MP to turn around; e.g. it's front half moves into it's back half.. then the back half follows the front. Is that not the case too?

Facing has no affect on anything. Large figures can trace LOS in any direction as normal, regardless of facing. The breath template can be placed adjacent to any side/end of a large creature.

So, +1 to snacknuts. He's absolutely correct.

snacknuts said:

No, it is not.. Facing has no effect (see my earlier quote). figures can move backwards or sideways as easily as they can forward because facing has no effect . If the figure 'moves' but still occupies the same spaces, then it has not actually moved.

For further evidence you have the example on page 2 of large monster movement interacting with terrain. Note that "front" is in inverted commas (because there is no front, it just means whatever direction you are travelling in).
Note also the movement of the Giant on pg 17 DJitD. Although the giant's last move is sideways, he does not change facing. If there was terrain in the last spaces, the giants 'side' would count as his 'front' because that is the direction of movement .
You also have the hellhound/breath firing out the hellhounds backside on page 22 - why/how? because facing has no effect . The hellhound's backside is exactly equivalent to its head.

Note that Dragons and hellhounds (as well as some later monsters) have slightly different rules because they are not square. But they are only slightly different.
DJitD pg 15
1. The figure moves one half of its body into a non-diagonal adjacent space while the other half of its body moves into the space(s) that the first half just vacated
2. The figure moves to a diagonally adjacent space by moving both halves of its body in the same diagonal direction (also called “sidestepping”). Both types of movement are illustrated in the diagram on page 17.
Note that in both cases the front half is moving to an adjacent space (not an already occupied space).
The only significant difference is that it appears that 2x1 and 3x2 monsters cannot literally side-step (what the rules call side stepping is a forward or backward angled step).

Heh. I guess what I meant was +1 Corbon.

NigelTufnel said:

Right, completly childish but we really laughed when we first had a Hell Hound farthing fire with the breath template.

Ezhaeu said:

Is there anyone who did not?

@ Corbon: What leads you to the conclusion that a dragon cannot literally side-step?

Firstly, dragons have no "front half", only a front third, medium third and rear third, although that is not specified in the rules. "Half of its body" can thus only refer to "left-half" and "right-half" in the case of six-space monsters.

Secondly, the rules specify that such a figure may move to non-diagonal adjacent squares, meaning "forward/backward" or "sideways" (meaning rectangular to the way its head is pointed). While forward/backward is pretty clear, sideways should then mean that it moves his three left-half spaces one space to the left, and the three right-half spaces move to the spaces that the three left-half spaces just left.

The result is a perfect literal sidestep (which the Hellhound is not allowed to do, granted).

Though the wording in clause 1 on pg.15 is a little odd, since it says "The figure moves one half of its body into a non-diagonal
adjacent space " which (i.e. move to one adjacent space) is not possible for a dragon.

Parathion said:

Dragons must move as on page 15.
1. The figure moves one half of its body into a non-diagonal adjacent space while the other half of its body moves into the space(s) that the first half just vacated
2. The figure moves to a diagonally adjacent space by moving both halves of its body in the same diagonal direction (also called “sidestepping”). Both types of movement are illustrated in the diagram on page 17.
These are the only movement options it has. Either option 2 (always diagonal) or option 1 (half moves in a N/E/S/W direction and rear loves to occupy the vacated area).
There is no option for rear/other half to also occupy new area.

However, "one half" can only mean 'front edge' (in the direction of movement). It is bad writing (surprise!), but the only acceptable explanation, and ties in with the way 'front edge' (or front half) is used in the large monsters/terrain faq explanation. If one half truly means one half (left/right split is only possibility) then the dragon cannot possibly move forward along a 2-space-wide corridoor!
A simple go forward has to be an available option or we get too many breakdown situations!

So if we assume "one half" means "narrow edge going forward" (be it forward, back or sideways from original facing) then we get the dragon operating very similarly to the hellhound (and being unable to simply move sideways) - which seems 'right' since they are operating by the exact same rules. It also fits the miniatures shape nicely.

Alternatively we could assume "one half" means "any edge going forward" and then the dragon can sidestep. But why would the dragon be able to do something the hellhound cannot using the same rules? And why would you need to specify any 'half' or amount at all, since the other half would always move into the vacated area automatically?
The only reason to put in the bit about the second half moving into the vacated area is to have hellhound and dragons use a clumsy turning mechanism. So we are back to the interpretation I used, and dragons, like hellhounds, can't truly 'sidestep'.

Granted, "front half" has to include "front third" to allow forward/backward moves - but it doesn´t say or even imply that "left-half" would be excluded from clause 1 - in my game side-stepping dragons and demons are thus allowed.

The difference between Hellhound and Dragon is simply the size. In terms of common sense (warning acknowledged!), the dragon sets its left two feet onto the spaces that its right two feet occupy, and the right two feet move to two previously unoccupied spaces. Just like a spider or any other four-space creatures could do.

The Hellhound (and Wendigo) is not able to do this because if it moved its feet in the same manner, the two left feet would still be on the same space they previously occupied, resulting in the Hellhound having its body centered on the line between the four squares in question in the end after the two right feet moved - which is of course not possible.

I think I lost something in the discussion.

So a dragon whose base is running vertical along its long axis (so called something north and its 3x2 "facing" north) can't just move over 1 space to the west to "sidestep"?

I mean this says you can do that right?

1. The figure moves one half of its body into a non-diagonal adjacent space while the other half of its body moves into the space(s) that the first half just vacated.

Sorry I'm just getting to the discussion late and being stupid

Big Remy said:

Parathion argues you can.

I argue that you can't because if this text is actual to be read as written, then it is not possible for the dragon to move north (only 1/3 of the base will move into the non-diagonal adjacent space(s), not one half). That leaves aside the incongruity that the 3x2 dragon can't fit any half/third/edge into one space!
It is clear that the text is a botch job that only can be applied to 2x1 figures, despite being proscribed for both 3x2 and 2x1 figures.

Instead, I believe the text should read something like "the figure moves it's front/forward edge (2 spaces for a 2x3, 1 space for a 2x1) into a single or pair of non-diagonal adjacent spaces while..."
This has the virtue of treating the 3x2 and 2x1 figures the same, with the same problems being created by the same rules. It is at least clear that both 3x2 and 2x1 figure are supposed to be treated the same way.

If the 3x2 figures are (like the 2x1 figures) to be treated differently from normal figures, then they cannot move sideways. If they do move sideways then there is absolutely no difference in their movement to that of a 2x2 or 1x1 character, So why include them in the 'special' movement rules?

Reading the rules literally would then mean that the dragon can only move sideways (and diagonal), not forward/backward. Must be a close relative to the sidewinder snake

Seriously, the special rules are needed for the "turning" movement as in the upper right diagram of pg.17 - a square figure cannot do this, nor would the normal rules cover this.

Obviously they wanted to cram hellhounds and dragons into one ruleset - as you already mentioned, they failed.

As I said, in my book dragons are allowed to sidestep as well as to move forward/backward, according to clause 1. Hellhounds still cannot sidestep because they don´t have left or right halfs, just front and rear.

Parathion said:

Then what makes them different from any 'normal' creature? They just move 'like regular figures' the same as 4x4 space monsters.
A sideways movement does not fit either of the examples on page 17.

Item 1.
Dragons and Hellhounds are clearly intended to move differently from other monsters. They specifically have (collective) separate rules.

Item 2.
The text for how to move them is a clear botch and cannot be reasonably applied as written to 3x2 creatures. Clearly we need a different text from what is written, yet it must still result in different rules than 'reguilar' (square) figures or there is no point.

Item 3.
If 3x2 figures can move 'sideways' then there is no difference between their movement and 'regular figures'.

Item 4.
The diagram(s) on the right side page 17 show the dragon moving. The top one shows how to 'turn' 90 degrees, and gives another option for the final position. Itdoes not give an option for teh dragon to simply sidestep to the north.

Items 1-3 are clear, item 4 indictive but not conclusive.

Summary: 3x2 monsters turn as indicated, similar to hellhounds, and cannot sidestep.

As I already wrote, they needed special movement rules for the upper right moving example - this is not covered by the normal 1x1 or 2x2 movement rules - hence the special rules.

Item 1. Agreed. Though forward/backward movement is still similar (3x2) or even identical (2x1) to the movement of 2x2 creatures.

Item 2. Agreed. If "one half" from the original clause 1 is extended to include "one third" it is still possible to move sideways for dragons but not for hellhounds. Still different from square monsters, who all can "sidestep". If "one half" is replaced by "one third", though, the rule is not applicable to hellhounds any longer. This leads me to the conclusion, that it is meant to be extended not to be replaced.

Item 3. See above. The difference is still there for the hellhounds even within the altered ruleset.

Item 4. Point for you - no example is shown for the dragon sidestep movement. But then, the example also doesn´t show a dragon moving forward/backward, indicating that the diagrams are not comprehensive.

Conclusion: Unchanged. Dragons should be allowed to sidestep.

CORBON is 100% correct on this post. No lateral movement is allowed by rectangular figures in any case. If you look at the faq about whether blood apes can leap sideways to affect a greater area, it points you to the rules about moving monsters that shape in the JitD rulebook.

We used to play this way, and we were wrong and now we do not. Thematically, you can make arguments if you want, but the actual rules clearly tell you that no monster, dragon, ice wyrm, wendigo, blood ape, hellhound can move in any way other than straight, the strange diagonal way, or the 90 degree turn thing where it's butt comes around into the spaces its front were just in.

You can houserule stuff if it makes you feel better thematically, but this game never holds up to theme and so it's really just a question of if you want to follow the rules or not. If you do, you cannot move these monsters side to side. One end (either front or back) must move and the rest must follow.

@parathion. I don't see what you are saying at all. If you really feel dragons should be able to "sidestep," then house it. Your explanation doesn't do anything to convince me. You made up a bunch of extra rules to explain why dragons are different than hellhounds because one is twice as long as it is wide and the other only 1.5 times. The example in the JitD rulebook clearly groups them together, and uses one in some examples and the other in the other to illustrate how both must follow all these rules and also so you can see how it works with the larger figure. House it if you want, but don't tell me that the rules allow for it.

I don´t know why your post sounds extremely aggressive towards me, Feanor.

You don´t bring a hard argument into the discussion, you merely just say "That´s the way it is, everything else is houserule"

Read the movement rules again:

1. The figure moves one half of its body into a non-diagonal adjacent space while the other half of its body moves into the space(s) that the first half just vacated.

Please explain why you think moving sideways is not allowed, or what "half of its body" means for the dragon in that context. If you can.

Parathion said:

Guys, I'm willing to admit I might be entirely wrong but I'm still more or less with Parathion here. I mean, half of the dragon's body would be his left side 3 squares or his right side 3 or whatever since facing is not an issue wouldn't it? Just because the two examples of dragon movement shown in the book don't have him sidestepping doesn't mean it can't happen. I mean the example with him moving diagonally even calls it sidestepping, he's just side stepping forward one square. He's basically doing exactly what Parathion and I are talking about, he just happens to be moving forward a space at the same time.

As for the bloodape example, I'm not really sure that applies since it was in reference to the Leap attack and an attempt to attack more figures by turning sideways. Yes, you can Leap for movement and not attack, but that FAQ entry was talking about attacking.

As for Hellhounds, they are different. A hell hound can't side step his way along becuase his back "half" has to follow the front "half", so its impossible for him to sidestep (same applies to the Blood Ape). But since the dragon has a long axis longer than one square, he can do it for the same reason an 2x2 can.

Like I said, very likely I'm wrong so if I am I'm fine with house ruling it for now.

Big Remy said:

I never noticed it before (and I think that it's an error of the FAQ that wanted to limit leap), but according to the literally FAQ it would still work to affect a double amount of spaces with a leap attack:

The FAQ says:

Q: When making a Leap attack, can a blood ape leap "sideways" so that it affects twice as much area?
A: No. Refer to the large figure movement rules on page 15 and the diagram on page 17 of the "Journeys in the Dark" rules. Monsters using Leap must still follow all normal rules for movement except as specifically noted.

So the leaping blood ape could leap diagonal (!) and in this way, it would affect twice as many spaces!

Diagonal movement "follows all normal rules for movement". Sideways moving is not diagonal moving...

(I was thinking until today that a blood ape could only leap in a straight-forward-line - I haven't been the only one who thought this way, have I?)

I'm going to take the risk of posting without reading the entire discussion. Forgive me.

As Corbon notes, if the rules are taken exactly as written, a dragon cannot move straight forward, nor can it rotate , despite the diagram showing that as an example move. So we must assume the rules are in error.

Given that we cannot simply follow RAW here, I think that the most plausible guess is that the rules are correct for hellhounds, and that dragons should move in an analogous fashion. That means 6 translations (forward, backward, and 4 diagonals) and 4 rotations are possible, but that moving orthogonally to their long axis is not possible.

I'll also note that I wrote to FFG at one point to ask about this issue and never got a response. Admittedly, the wording of my question may have been somewhat...impolitic. It's an atrociously written passage.

@Graf: Blood Apes cannot Leap diagonally because the rules for the Leap ability explicitly prohibit diagonal Leaping.

Big Remy said:

Summarising several posts at once here, not just what is quoted above.

Yes, Feanor's post did come across as unnecessarily aggressive but I doubt that was the intent. He's normally a reasonable guy (even after 10 pages! ).

The explanation for why you can't take the passage 'as written' has been covered several times, most succinctly and most recently by Antistone. The passage itself is clearly in error, so using it 'as written' is not a very strong argument. I do agree that 'as written' it allows sideways movement - but only with the proviso that you then cannot allow forwards movement (nor move according the the example diagram!)

The bloodape example is pretty much irrelevant since the movement of Hellhounds is not in question here. Everyone agrees that they cannot move sideways (I think).

I still haven't seen any reasoning that explains why 3x2 creatures and 2x1 creatures are clearly lumped together as a special case rule, yet one operates the same as any normal figure and the other does not.

Last but not least, overall this is a pretty minor point and even if forced to 'change' the way it is played mid-game (the worst possible case for rules disputes) I still think it is unlikely to be of major significance.
But it is fun discussing it anyway.

I've often moved Hell Hounds sideways down a passage, but I guess I will stop doing that. I found the large figure movement rules and examples to really not gel much in my head so I just did what seemed feasible. I always thought that side-stepping seemed...stupid. It's times like this that I almost wish this game's maps had hexes instead of squares.

I'm sorry if I came off as "aggressive." I do think this discussion is ridiculously long for something that is a)clearly illustrated in theJitD booklet and b)further confirmed by the faq. The fact of the matter is that dragons and hellhounds are treated the same, because they are longer than they are wide. This gives them more definable fronts and backs. While it doesn't matter which part is front or back for facing, nor does it prevent attacking from the side of the figure, it does affect movement. Dragons and hellhounds have to move with their "front" beginning the movement.

The front of a hellhound is either the part where the head is or the part where the tail is. Wherever that part goes, the rest follows. Hence if you go forward, the back now occupies where the rear was. If you one space to the right with the front, the rear follows along into the space previouly occupied by the space initiating movement. The only time where the rear doesn't end up where the front was is the specific example of a "sidestep," which is actually a diagonal movement.

The only difference for a dragon is that its front is 2 spaces wide. This works out just fine, though, because so is it's middle and it's rear. The movement style is the same.

The bloodape example in the faq points out that these type of figures cannot move their front and rear perpendicular to their facing all at once.

I'm not saying I don't sometimes think it's silly that they rule it this way, but it is in fact the rule per the example and the way other questions have been answered. I'm sorry if I'm "aggressive," here, but it really is a houserule to move them another way. I'm not saying it's a bad house rule, but that's still what it is. Maybe it's not rules as written, since you can interpret text how you want, but it's certainly "rules as clearly displayed in the diagram..." which should be just as good.

Keep in mind tone does not translate via text and I have a tendency to drive points home by explaining and re-explaining. Repetetive may have been more accurate than aggressive. But hey, you guys can take it how you want it. You still can't move your dragon that way according to the rulebook. Sorry.

Feanor said:

I hate to drag this out, but if facing in this game makes no difference it is equally valid to call one the 3 square long side of the dragon the "front" of it. At which point, its no longer a "lateral sidestep", he would just moving forward a space wouldn't he?

The rules for the dragon movement are poorly written.

EDIT: I just had the thought that the only way those rules make sense is if Hell Hounds, Dragons and Blood Apes is if they accidently made them exceptions to the no facing rule when writing how they move. Otherwise the movement rules make no sense. And if that is the case, then the example for Breathe attacks using a Hell Hound is wrong as well.