Gonna post a real simple, basic truth about this game:

Flying your list well is the mark of a good player, reacting to your opponents list is the mark of a great one.

Whisper, Echo, Fat Turrets and, soon, AT Interceptors and ATC Vader, are not game breaking, you are just not that good (this is a hard pill to swallow I know). React to your opponents list. Flying a 3/4 X-wing list against a phantom? Give up loser! You can't get a well flown Phantom in arc! Bullcrap. Wedge kills phantoms dead, fly slow, hug the edge widen your arcs, it's difficult, not impossible. Please stop saying a ship is OP because it beat your one-note, jousting-based, "strategy".

I took a Whisper/Chippy build to my first tournament having only played with Whisper once before, placed 8 out of 18, would've done better had my Whisper not been one-shotted at range 3 early in the last round. But Whisper is invincible OP! You must just suck. Or maybe my opponent was just better than me? Buzzsaw Whisper is easy mode, easy to fly, easy to kill.

Stop demanding nerfs and adapt, seriously, these forums are becoming a real drag.

I actually happen to agree with you, but you were such an idiot while making your point that i find myself wanting to disagree at all costs.

Between choosing the like OP's post or the first comment, I chose none. What OP says is true, and I can understand his frustration with the forums, but he's a bit too aggressive.

Gonna post a real simple, basic truth about this game:

Flying your list well is the mark of a good player, reacting to your opponents list is the mark of a great one.

Whisper, Echo, Fat Turrets and, soon, AT Interceptors and ATC Vader, are not game breaking, you are just not that good (this is a hard pill to swallow I know). React to your opponents list. Flying a 3/4 X-wing list against a phantom? Give up loser! You can't get a well flown Phantom in arc! Bullcrap. Wedge kills phantoms dead, fly slow, hug the edge widen your arcs, it's difficult, not impossible. Please stop saying a ship is OP because it beat your one-note, jousting-based, "strategy".

I took a Whisper/Chippy build to my first tournament having only played with Whisper once before, placed 8 out of 18, would've done better had my Whisper not been one-shotted at range 3 early in the last round. But Whisper is invincible OP! You must just suck. Or maybe my opponent was just better than me? Buzzsaw Whisper is easy mode, easy to fly, easy to kill.

Stop demanding nerfs and adapt, seriously, these forums are becoming a real drag.

By all means fly your x-wings down the side of the board. I'll keep Whisper on the other side of the board and make you come to me. Let's see who gets bored first?

By all means fly your x-wings down the side of the board. I'll keep Whisper on the other side of the board and make you come to me. Let's see who gets bored first?

I hope the board/bored pun was intended.

I do disagree. something doesn't need to be invincible to be overpowered. Often unbalance can be very subtle.

Maybe on paper something looks fine but in practice it may show it's true colors simply by limiting your opponent's options much, much more than any other ship would. "It can be killed! You even killed it before the game ended!" you might say but it doesn't change the fact that your opponent spent the entire match having to strategize every single micro move to keep up while your only requirement to win was to fly into blaster range and roll your dice without screwing up royally and flying off the map.

Another example of unbalance is that the meta revolves around either specifically countering a card or ship or playing it yourself and anything else that pops up is seen as simply a fun gimmick.

Tie Phantoms the obvious go-to guy for examples of such. They are overpowered for both obvious reason and subtle ones. Obviously the 4 attack dice (More than anything else in the game) is a major glaring point of unbalance. "What is it's weakness?" you might ask. Well it's weakness is that it's "merely" as evasive as an X-Wing or Z-95. oooo that's a harsh downside. Others need to equip Proton rockets or combos to even get one chance to come close to the damage printed on that ship's card. Even without cloaking devices, Tie Phantoms would be nasty opponents that overshadow pretty much everything else. And of course they can be cloaked which increases their evasion to the highest of any ship in the game.


The subtle overpowerment on the ships is exemplified by the absurd movement decloaking gives them. As long as they can move last and shoot first they can pretty much do what they want. pop up anywhere on the map. That ability that boosts their evade to higher than any ship in the game also has the added effect of letting them boost or barrel roll before moving without even using their action. oh yes, using this ability effectively requires some thought and strategy your ego likes to hear you say but that's thought and strategy that every other ship in the game doesn't even have access to. A unique advantage which means you are allowed to do things that no other ship is allowed to do without being called for cheating. You don't win with a Phantom because you were Mr. Smarty pants. It was simply privilege.

That's unbalance.

By all means fly your x-wings down the side of the board. I'll keep Whisper on the other side of the board and make you come to me. Let's see who gets bored first?

I hope the board/bored pun was intended.

I do try. It makes my heart warm when someone notices!

Oh boy... Says X-wings are fine against Phantoms and takes a Whisper/Chiraneau to a tournament, saying he did well.

Dude if you want to prove your point, you don't say that you can do well with a Phantom you flew only once before. Because that actually tells us Phantoms are easy to pick up and pretty powerful.

If you told us you took an X-Wing List to the tournanent and did well i would be impressed!

If you told us you took an X-Wing List to the tournanent and did well i would be impressed!

I took an X-Wing list to a tournament and did well.

If you told us you took an X-Wing List to the tournanent and did well i would be impressed!

I took an X-Wing list to a tournament and did well.

When?....

I actually happen to agree with you, but you were such an idiot while making your point that i find myself wanting to disagree at all costs.

Because I didn't start my post with "Excuse me" or "Mighten I make a point ser?". I was not rude or overly aggressive, simply blunt, my point was adapt. Be the meta you want to play.

Oh boy... Says X-wings are fine against Phantoms and takes a Whisper/Chiraneau to a tournament, saying he did well.

I said I did well, also said whisper got one-shotted, and, actually, chippy was my mvp killed over twice what whisper killed.

Dude if you want to prove your point, you don't say that you can do well with a Phantom you flew only once before. Because that actually tells us Phantoms are easy to pick up and pretty powerful.

Being easy to pick up and play is not a bad thing. You need "newbie" ships, they aren't overpowered perhaps that point was lost in the rush to tell me to be nicer to people demanding nerfs and refusing to at least TRY to adapt first.

I'm not sure if I understand the point of this thread. Most of the recent threads asking for ideas for changes are rather calm and non-toxic, so I'm not sure what the point of this is.

not to mention the people who have been asking for things to change, myself included, have played with, against, won, and loss to the fat Hans and phantoms. I don't think anyone has said they can't be beaten, but that a rather large combination of factors has lead to the current meta, and its one that that person doesn't like. So a change to one of the many factors is suggested. Noones said they can't adapt, or haven't. Just that the current game state is boring and unimaginative, which is pretty different from even wave 3 meta. Each waves had its problems but wave 5 is the least fun for a large amount of people and in a game where fun is the whole point they have a right to voice their opinion. I personally would like to see a change to the mov for points per hull, so that you don't end up with fat Hans essentially being 40k deathstar units, which is what they are right now.

Well i think that's quite right TrueGreek.

And what i really don't get is what Hobo even wants with this thread. I have complained in the past but i always wanted a discussion at least. This is just saying every problem with the game comes from the dumb, dumb community not knowing how to play the game. Seriously?

The top choices of the meta are not where they currently are because nobody can fly the other ships. They are obviously there because they offer advantages over most other choices.

Saying they are only there because people can't adapt to other ships is just incredibly pretentious.

"fly slow, hug the edge widen your arcs, it's difficult, not impossible."

(the further away you are, the wider your arc gets)

There you go, the useful part of the OP cut out from the dross

That'll help anyone having problems facing these ships competitively. It won't help anyone sick to **** of seeing them (And fatties, who have to be engaged with the exact same strategy) over and over and over...

When?....

Late October. Went 4-1, only loss was to the losing finalist. Finished 4th out of 20 or so.

I'm not sure if I understand the point of this thread.

The point is I(and many others no doubt) an tired of seeing Nerf X NAO!!!11!!1! for the nth time.Mostly because they bleed into other threads asking for ideas and strategies on how to adapt. A great example is that interceptor+Vader thread, I don't think anyone mentioned: staying at range three, using Vaders tankiness as bait while you pound away with the interceptors, going 97pts and forcing the opponent through the asteroids. An actual discussion(like we're having now believe it or not). Instead we got yet another Turrets+Phantoms OP, you will die instantly and if you didn't, if you actually won? Then it was a terrible player, 'cuz no one ever shoots Phantoms!

Negativity, that's what we're tired of. Let's see some creativity instead.

I stopped playing with whisper after I realized how incredibly easy it was to win most games with her.

I had several games where I flew her pretty bad, but the 4 dice attack combined with 4 dice defense from ACD totally negated most mistakes I made.

I'm not sure if I understand the point of this thread.

The point is I(and many others no doubt) an tired of seeing Nerf X NAO!!!11!!1! for the nth time.Mostly because they bleed into other threads asking for ideas and strategies on how to adapt. A great example is that interceptor+Vader thread, I don't think anyone mentioned: staying at range three, using Vaders tankiness as bait while you pound away with the interceptors, going 97pts and forcing the opponent through the asteroids. An actual discussion(like we're having now believe it or not). Instead we got yet another Turrets+Phantoms OP, you will die instantly and if you didn't, if you actually won? Then it was a terrible player, 'cuz no one ever shoots Phantoms!

Negativity, that's what we're tired of. Let's see some creativity instead.

but bones had nerf now threads. Simply that something is slightly off at the moment. Every game will always have nerf x threads, its human nature. Honestly I thought this was gonna be a rant thread given the title.

also as an aside, saying stay at range three is not super helpful as its not exactly easy to find a move that maintains arc, is range 3, and isn't over an obstacle. Also the opponent would look at the list, and understand that the interceptors are the threat, and take range 3 shots. Not the best but target priority is something of a given in that style list. Vader can't solo a game, only live through it, so any smart opponent will do their best to focus fire the interceptors, since they can carry a list late game much better.

lastly, adapting isn't something you can wave your hands and make it happen. Especially when people are being rather reasonable at the moment, and may actually have a point. It looks and sounds rather arrogant and dismissive.

The point is I(and many others no doubt) an tired of seeing Nerf X NAO!!!11!!1! for the nth time.

I've never seen anyone write like that on this forum. This is a vapid strawman argument.

I've never seen anyone write like that on this forum. This is a vapid strawman argument.

Actually, it's what's known as hyperbole.

If you told us you took an X-Wing List to the tournanent and did well i would be impressed!

I took an X-Wing list to a tournament and did well.

I took a 3 X-Wing list to Worlds and almost made the cut (4-2).

I generally agree with the OP, people like to deflect more than they like to find solutions, but his post was way too aggressive and contradictory to make his point.

I've never seen anyone write like that on this forum. This is a vapid strawman argument.

Actually, it's what's known as hyperbole.

And while no one's put it quite that way, there are plenty of threads asking for this, that or the other thing to be fixed which effectively means nerfed.

Also there is a fair amount of fatalism on these boards lately. Even though I may think the X-Wing doesn't shine quite as brightly as it should... If you ask people's opinion on what to do with a 4 X-Wing list, the answer will overwhelmingly be "fly something else". Because it seems to be accepted by a lot of people that the X-Wing spontaneously combusts when a Phantom is on the table.

Or that the only way to do well in a tournament is a Fat <YT/Deci> and Corran/Whisper. Any other list will just be destroyed, and if you bring something else, you may as well concede the game as soon as you sit down.

I'm not saying there's no justification for that, just that we seem to be swirling down some sort of group think shame spiral... It's just assumed there's no way to compete against Phantoms or Large turrets so that's all anyone wants to play.

I've never seen anyone write like that on this forum. This is a vapid strawman argument.

Actually, it's what's known as hyperbole.

Don't get me wrong, I can completely understand that some do not want to read more threads about how this or that ship unbalances the game. It's just that this particular rant isn't well argued at all, if only for the reason that the people to whom it is aimed cannot seriously recognize themselves in how they are described.

Whisper, Echo, Fat Turrets and, soon, AT Interceptors and ATC Vader, are not game breaking, you are just not that good (this is a hard pill to swallow I know).

Here's my big, dirty secret: I don't actually care whether they're game-breaking or not. I have opinions, of course, but it's not really worth trying to change anyone's mind because the FFG board has no power to make changes to game elements.

What I really care about, in the big picture, is whether or not the game stays interesting. Phantoms are interesting, because they're fun to fly and because figuring out how to beat them is a challenge. But the evidence at this point suggests that Phantoms are also responsible in part for the proliferation of Large turrets, and it's not interesting to show up knowing that 60-80% of your opponents will be running a YT-1300, YT-2400, or a Decimator.

So I'm in favor of changes to Phantoms and/or Large ships not because they're broken but because they're making the game less interesting.

With that said, you're wrong here:

Please stop saying a ship is OP because it beat your one-note, jousting-based, "strategy".

Some game elements really are more powerful than others, especially when you place them in a particular context--that is, a metagame. I don't know what a "Whisper/Chippy" is, but a skilled player running a list with Whisper and Chiraneau presents his or her opponent with a set of unpalatable choices--and in the current metagame, it doesn't really have any bad matchups. That makes it powerful and reliable, and more likely to be successful than many of the alternatives.

That doesn't mean there are no viable alternatives, and it certainly doesn't mean people should stop looking. But insulting people because they struggle to take out Phantoms isn't called for and isn't any more helpful than the nerf posts you're frustrated about.

Real simple, basic truths from a guy with one tourney under belt, yeah?

That's okay, I'm good.