Ironically, OP is just as bad as the people he is complaining about, in that he's just bringing negativity and divisiveness to this forum with his post. Basically a whiner whining about other people's whining. If you're getting tired of seeing threads complaining about balance, then the appropriate mature response is to stop reading those threads and start making the content that you want to see.

I recently decided that I wanted to do my best to improve at this game in spite of whatever balance issues there are, and the large amount of speculative threads on how the game could be designed better don't help me achieve that, but instead of whining about it, I mostly just ignore all the "what if" threads and just stick to the threads that deal with reality, and I've even gone and made my own blog on tumblr dedicated to getting better at playing X-Wing. I don't even care if anyone reads it, but I know that thinking about things in a way that I can write about it and present it to strangers so that it makes sense will help me get better at the game.

Take responsibility and be the change you want to see in the world. The only person's behavior you can change is your own, so if you want to see more constructive posts on these forums, then be the one to make them.

I don't think it's right to attempt to intimidate people into not posting on certain subjects by using blunt language, hyperbole and fallacious reasoning. And it is probably not going to work either. If I wanted the rules regarding the Phantom to change, I'm pretty sure this thread would not change my mind nor keep me from posting opinions about it.

Honestly whenever i want Feedback on a list or something i try to post in the right forun, but i had threads without any replies after a few days, and reposted them here where i immediately had a discussion going!

What does everyone have against Opie? Next thing you know it'll be badmouthing Aunt Bea and Barney.

PS 9 wedge is a hard counter? I thought xwings sucked? Oh wait it's just the generics supposedly...

Many of the things you mentioned are useful in general (turrets stress inducers) you need to be ready for anything...that includes phantoms, falcons, and anything else generally considered good. Why are you asking him to fight a phantom without taking any of the several, very useful, tools you described. That's a strawman if I ever saw one...

The point is that the game would be better with more things in the "very useful" category --- and there were before the phantom. It's not that it isn't beatable, it is, but it's beatable by a lot less than every other ship in the game.

PS 9 wedge is a hard counter? I thought xwings sucked? Oh wait it's just the generics supposedly...

Many of the things you mentioned are useful in general (turrets stress inducers) you need to be ready for anything...that includes phantoms, falcons, and anything else generally considered good. Why are you asking him to fight a phantom without taking any of the several, very useful, tools you described. That's a strawman if I ever saw one...

My guess would be that people tend to focus only on the negativity of things.

If you go against a Phantom without any tools, you're in for a rough battle. Which is normal, you let him play his strenght, but it is not a lost battle either.

What people tend to forget is, if you did brought a counter for the Phantom, he is in for a very rough battle. He will have a lot of trouble winning this fight. How can a ship be considered overpowered when there is definite easy way to beat it.

What the Phantom really did is force the players to adapt and put more thought to team building.

Sadly, this has led many players into the Golden Age of turrets, but it was bound to happen anyway. The YT-2400 is a ship that everyone knew was eventually coming, since it is one of the most iconic ship from the EU. When getting it, if the Empire still got no turret ship, jealousy would have make them cry and not only would we have a lot of threads about how turrets are overpowered but also how the Empire is screwed by the overwhelming presence of Rebel turrets making their Interceptors and Phantom useless. For the Falcon, they had to make it more reliable, paying 60 points for a ship that can go down in 2 turns was not an interesting choice.

So in the end, I think they made the right choice. They forced a meta where the turrets are king and see the impact it really has on the game. I'm sure now that with each wave we'll start to see little counters here and there like Autothruster thrown in until the turrets are back into a good build, but not something you should take without any consideration. Think of Wave 4-5 as the Middle Age of X-Wing. Something that had to happens so we can move forward. Enter Wave 6: the Renaissance.

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Honest Question: why would a good Phantom player ever put their Phantom in front Luke? If I was running Chiraneau + Whisper and somebody put that list in front of me, I'd just keep Whisper on the other side of the board and let them chew on my Decimator (nice Wedge lol) and then once Chiraneau has traded with Biggs and Luke, Whisper will finish off the other 2. If I have a 40 point Phantom and you have a 32 point Wedge when time is called, I win right?

This does prove though that the Phantom is not a noob win-button. It takes a modicum of intelligence (or whatever small amount I have) to realize that the Phantom is a late game ship and doesn't need to be the first ship you send in against your opponent's full strength squad. I remember when I got back into this game for a few weeks in August before taking a break again, I brought a Phantom to a tournament, and the 2 games I won were the ones where I kept my Phantom out of the fight and let my other 2 ships thin out their list before cleaning up with the Phantom.

Honest Answer: because at some point the Phantom player WILL attempt to engage with the Phantom. Offset deployment, head on, center deployment, the options are fairly limited on a 3x3 surface to run and hide. It is harder for some to watch the Decimator take all of the punishment while 4 of your 7 attack dice are floating around doing nothing for your team. The moment you angle in after flying around, hiding from what you feel is inferior, is the moment your Phantom is crushed. Of course, you are not the only one who says that running around is the best way to keep the Phantom from getting shot down early and someone always seems to say that would be their strategy. You might lol at Wedge, but he is not there for the Decimator. He is there to OHKO stressed Phantoms so I don't have to waste my time with them.

Maybe it is just easy for me so see what is going on because I hate the Phantom so much that it has consumed all of my play testing and strategy testing. I own a Phantom and I know it's dial without having to glance at a reference card, I can visualize all of the decloak options and yet I have never flown it. It's not even fun playing against high PS ACD Phantoms anymore because once I figured them out, it became as monotonous as taking out the trash.

Or the Phantom can just run. 40ish point Phantom left when I probably still have 75 left? I'll take that win.

Luke shoots first, but any Phantom list will have initiative. So Wedge moves first. Hence the Phantom should be easily able to arc-dodge Wedge and get a shot on Luke (who can't manoeuvre to get a shot).

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Ok, so you had PS9 Wedge in your list. That's a Phantom counter. Would you take a list to an event without a hard Phantom counter? Would you swap out Wedge for either Luke, Porkins, or Farlander all without VI? Of course not, nor should you. That's the point, and the problem. There is no other ship that EVERY list must have a tool to deal with. If you bring Bloody Daggers, 2 Reds and 2 Daggers with AdvSensors, you will do very very well against the Falcons lists and just about everything else, but you will be in serious trouble against an Echo or Whisper list. Can you beat a Phantom with Bloody Daggers? Sure anything is possible, but I triple dog dare you to take Bloody Daggers to a Store Championship. Let us know how you do.

I dare anyone to take a list with all PS7 and lower ships, with no turret, and with no stress mechanic to a Store Championship. The majority of available cards and upgrades fit into those list requirements that anyone should be able to field a competitive list using just those cards. But no one does, and it's likely no one will.

Maybe I'm wrong, but sozin's list juggler should gather enough data on the state of things in the Store Championships to tell us how well lists without hard Phantom counters actually do. I know where I'd put my money.

I don't need to take Bloody Daggers to a store Championship to know that, I already did that at Regionals last year in Atlanta. I lost to two different Echo lists. The positioning power of Decloak vs lower PS ships is seriously why I hate the Phantom so much. You live and learn though. I'm not sure where that argument was going with calling me out to take Bloody Daggers. I would say that I agree with you about how lopsided matches are for Rebels (without turrets or VI & stress effects) vs high PS ACD Phantoms, but trying to call me out as if I didn't know is ridiculous.

Additionally I see a lot more of the same arrogant responses from people who play Phantoms there is no way to have more than one of my X-wings facing you.

Go ahead and believe that. Just know that if you ever bring your list around Atlanta I generally have Weekends and Wednesday nights free and would be happy to show you my list.

#NoTurrets #Stressbot

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Ok, so you had PS9 Wedge in your list. That's a Phantom counter. Would you take a list to an event without a hard Phantom counter? Would you swap out Wedge for either Luke, Porkins, or Farlander all without VI? Of course not, nor should you. That's the point, and the problem. There is no other ship that EVERY list must have a tool to deal with. If you bring Bloody Daggers, 2 Reds and 2 Daggers with AdvSensors, you will do very very well against the Falcons lists and just about everything else, but you will be in serious trouble against an Echo or Whisper list. Can you beat a Phantom with Bloody Daggers? Sure anything is possible, but I triple dog dare you to take Bloody Daggers to a Store Championship. Let us know how you do.

I dare anyone to take a list with all PS7 and lower ships, with no turret, and with no stress mechanic to a Store Championship. The majority of available cards and upgrades fit into those list requirements that anyone should be able to field a competitive list using just those cards. But no one does, and it's likely no one will.

Maybe I'm wrong, but sozin's list juggler should gather enough data on the state of things in the Store Championships to tell us how well lists without hard Phantom counters actually do. I know where I'd put my money.

I don't need to take Bloody Daggers to a store Championship to know that, I already did that at Regionals last year in Atlanta. I lost to two different Echo lists. The positioning power of Decloak vs lower PS ships is seriously why I hate the Phantom so much. You live and learn though. I'm not sure where that argument was going with calling me out to take Bloody Daggers. I would say that I agree with you about how lopsided matches are for Rebels (without turrets or VI & stress effects) vs high PS ACD Phantoms, but trying to call me out as if I didn't know is ridiculous.

Additionally I see a lot more of the same arrogant responses from people who play Phantoms there is no way to have more than one of my X-wings facing you.

Go ahead and believe that. Just know that if you ever bring your list around Atlanta I generally have Weekends and Wednesday nights free and would be happy to show you my list.

#NoTurrets #Stressbot

I didn't mean to call you out man, I'm truly sorry if that's how it came across. I was simply trying to demonstrate that your XXXZ list is very different from the XXBB lists of 6 months ago. Your XXXZ list is an anti-Phantom list, and it's a **** good one. I'm just saddened for the overall game, that a seriously solid list like Bloody Daggers is no longer playable in a serious setting. It would be better for the game if 1 ship didn't just nullify entire categories of lists. Or even if you could just simply run Luke without VI, but you generally can't, and that saddens me.

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Ok, so you had PS9 Wedge in your list. That's a Phantom counter. Would you take a list to an event without a hard Phantom counter? Would you swap out Wedge for either Luke, Porkins, or Farlander all without VI? Of course not, nor should you. That's the point, and the problem. There is no other ship that EVERY list must have a tool to deal with. If you bring Bloody Daggers, 2 Reds and 2 Daggers with AdvSensors, you will do very very well against the Falcons lists and just about everything else, but you will be in serious trouble against an Echo or Whisper list. Can you beat a Phantom with Bloody Daggers? Sure anything is possible, but I triple dog dare you to take Bloody Daggers to a Store Championship. Let us know how you do.

I dare anyone to take a list with all PS7 and lower ships, with no turret, and with no stress mechanic to a Store Championship. The majority of available cards and upgrades fit into those list requirements that anyone should be able to field a competitive list using just those cards. But no one does, and it's likely no one will.

Maybe I'm wrong, but sozin's list juggler should gather enough data on the state of things in the Store Championships to tell us how well lists without hard Phantom counters actually do. I know where I'd put my money.

I don't need to take Bloody Daggers to a store Championship to know that, I already did that at Regionals last year in Atlanta. I lost to two different Echo lists. The positioning power of Decloak vs lower PS ships is seriously why I hate the Phantom so much. You live and learn though. I'm not sure where that argument was going with calling me out to take Bloody Daggers. I would say that I agree with you about how lopsided matches are for Rebels (without turrets or VI & stress effects) vs high PS ACD Phantoms, but trying to call me out as if I didn't know is ridiculous.

Additionally I see a lot more of the same arrogant responses from people who play Phantoms there is no way to have more than one of my X-wings facing you.

Go ahead and believe that. Just know that if you ever bring your list around Atlanta I generally have Weekends and Wednesday nights free and would be happy to show you my list.

#NoTurrets #Stressbot

I didn't mean to call you out man, I'm truly sorry if that's how it came across. I was simply trying to demonstrate that your XXXZ list is very different from the XXBB lists of 6 months ago. Your XXXZ list is an anti-Phantom list, and it's a **** good one. I'm just saddened for the overall game, that a seriously solid list like Bloody Daggers is no longer playable in a serious setting. It would be better for the game if 1 ship didn't just nullify entire categories of lists. Or even if you could just simply run Luke without VI, but you generally can't, and that saddens me.

I'm sorry too brother. I loved flying XXBB (Bloody Daggers was my favorite)If there is one thing that works me up it's talking about Phantoms. I totally agree with you that a large portion of formerly (very) competitive Rebel lists disappeared when Wave 4 hit due to ACD Phantoms. Without the natural predators (swarms) the Fat Falcons flew in to take away the maneuvering advantage Phantoms had and it made the whole meta stale.

If given the choice of an X-wing super-buff or a ACD nerf, I would choose the nerf, 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.

when Wave 4 hit due to ACD Phantoms.

This may seem like a bit of nitpick... But it's not ACD Phantoms, it's Whisper, VI, and ACD that really caused the issues.

If Whisper didn't have a EPT and couldn't take VI, I think the meta would of been quite different.

when Wave 4 hit due to ACD Phantoms.

This may seem like a bit of nitpick... But it's not ACD Phantoms, it's Whisper, VI, and ACD that really caused the issues.

If Whisper didn't have a EPT and couldn't take VI, I think the meta would of been quite different.

Personally, I think it could have all been avoided if ACD voided the +2 agility granted by cloaking. You'd still get your hyper-maneuverable arc-dodge, but when I land my shot on you you're going to feel it.

Pretty sure the existence of turrets made that an impossibility, sadly. Z-95s don't last long against them, let alone 40 point ones.

Personally, I think it could have all been avoided if ACD voided the +2 agility granted by cloaking.

I'm of the opinion that the Phantom would be not be the boogyman it is, if Whisper wasn't effective a 4/4/2/2 PS9 ship. Getting a +2 agl while cloaked makes sense, it's part of the reason why they get 4 attack. If you could only safely uncloak when you knew there was little to no chance of getting shot back, the Phantom would be fine, perhaps even a little underpowered.

I feel as though more power comes from the decloak movement than the agility dice.

Edit: to rephrase this, when ACD cannot trigger, they lose the free super Barrel Roll/ Boost which decreases the amount of places it can end up. When ACD does trigger, they dance like rubber balls thrown into a cement room.

Personally, I think it could have all been avoided if ACD voided the +2 agility granted by cloaking.

I'm of the opinion that the Phantom would be not be the boogyman it is, if Whisper wasn't effective a 4/4/2/2 PS9 ship. Getting a +2 agl while cloaked makes sense, it's part of the reason why they get 4 attack. If you could only safely uncloak when you knew there was little to no chance of getting shot back, the Phantom would be fine, perhaps even a little underpowered.

Oh, I wouldn't say underpowered. I flew Particle Accelerator Sigmas w/FCS and int agents, and let me tell you they are brutal little 30 point ships.

They just require just about all of your attention and foresight to fly properly

I feel as though more power comes from the decloak movement than the agility dice.

I found the forward decloaks were easier to control with blocking ships and intervening obstacles than your opponent's four dice

Then again, I might be biased

when Wave 4 hit due to ACD Phantoms.

This may seem like a bit of nitpick... But it's not ACD Phantoms, it's Whisper, VI, and ACD that really caused the issues.

If Whisper didn't have a EPT and couldn't take VI, I think the meta would of been quite different.

Personally, I think it could have all been avoided if ACD voided the +2 agility granted by cloaking. You'd still get your hyper-maneuverable arc-dodge, but when I land my shot on you you're going to feel it.

Pretty sure the existence of turrets made that an impossibility, sadly. Z-95s don't last long against them, let alone 40 point ones.

"At the end of the Combat Phase, if you do not have any Stress tokens, you may receive a Cloak token if you do not already have one"

If that was ACD it would still be a really strong upgrade but wouldn't have made Phantoms the boogeymen that they currently are.

"At the end of the Combat Phase, if you do not have any Stress tokens, you may receive a Cloak token if you do not already have one"

If that was ACD it would still be a really strong upgrade but wouldn't have made Phantoms the boogeymen that they currently are.

This isn't the first time I've seen someone suggest something like this as a fix, but it's terrible. Uncloaked Phantoms cannot survive a full round of fire unless they've dodged every arc; you're taking the ACD and making it into an upgrade that's useful solely for repositioning--but doesn't affect its power at all when it can reposition out of all or most of its opponent's arcs.

So what this version of ACD would do is make the Phantom even more of a spike in the metagame: it's easier for turrets to take it down, but just as difficult for non-turrets. The need to build specifically to fight Phantoms has accordingly actually gone up, and the problem as many people perceive it (that is, that Phantoms are hurting diversity in the metagame) is, if anything, actually worse.

I feel as though more power comes from the decloak movement than the agility dice.

Yes, you can get through 4 green dice. It's not easy but it can be done.

It's electron like quality that it simultaneously exists in 4 locations at the same time is the big problem. You have to guess where it's going to be and you can't really guess correct because the Phantom gets to change it's mind if you did.

I think if decloaking took place at the start of activation, you could at least react to it, and the Phantom couldn't change it's mind if you guess correctly.

Or, the Phantom must state which direction it is decloaking at the start of activation, and if when it goes to decloak it cannot, it doesn't get to decloak. Or even if it could decloak that way it has the option not to, but it can't decloak in a different direction.

I get the whole mechanic behind the cloak. We don't know where it is because we can't see it, but that shouldn't mean it exists in every possible decloak position at the same time, it isn't an electron. It should only exist in one specific location on the mat, it's just a secret location.

If the Phantom had to define it's position after all the dials are set, I think that would be a fair compromise and reallow a lot more lists back into the game.

If that was ACD it would still be a really strong upgrade but wouldn't have made Phantoms the boogeymen that they currently are.

It would make VI a lot less important to have anyway. Only problem is, how well would they stand up to a YT/VT? Han + VI makes a really good Phantom counter as is. But such a thing may of reduced the amount of YT's and VT's we see, if PS5-7 was all you needed to have a chance to kill a Phantom, the meta would look a lot different.

"At the end of the Combat Phase, if you do not have any Stress tokens, you may receive a Cloak token if you do not already have one"

If that was ACD it would still be a really strong upgrade but wouldn't have made Phantoms the boogeymen that they currently are.

This isn't the first time I've seen someone suggest something like this as a fix, but it's terrible. Uncloaked Phantoms cannot survive a full round of fire unless they've dodged every arc; you're taking the ACD and making it into an upgrade that's useful solely for repositioning--but doesn't affect its power at all when it can reposition out of all or most of its opponent's arcs.

So what this version of ACD would do is make the Phantom even more of a spike in the metagame: it's easier for turrets to take it down, but just as difficult for non-turrets. The need to build specifically to fight Phantoms has accordingly actually gone up, and the problem as many people perceive it (that is, that Phantoms are hurting diversity in the metagame) is, if anything, actually worse.

That's a good point about making them weaker against the things that they are weak against. I was looking at ACD being the modification that you'd take if you never wanted to have to take an action to cloak and SPA being the mod that made you a bit tougher to kill but forced you to decide when you wanted to cloak and decloak.

I wonder how it would of gone if both named pilots were 2 PS lower. So Echo would've been PS4 and Whisper would of been PS5.

If that was ACD it would still be a really strong upgrade but wouldn't have made Phantoms the boogeymen that they currently are.

It would make VI a lot less important to have anyway. Only problem is, how well would they stand up to a YT/VT? Han + VI makes a really good Phantom counter as is. But such a thing may of reduced the amount of YT's and VT's we see, if PS5-7 was all you needed to have a chance to kill a Phantom, the meta would look a lot different.

I think this is the most important point that can be stated. Lessening the impact ACD has on mid PS pilots would greatly reduce the amount of YTs, VTs and high PS in the meta would make everyone happier. Finding a way to keep the high PS Phantoms competitive is an important issue with that too.

I cannot imagine the cumulative outrage from an ACD nerf being a good thing no matter how much I want it to happen.

I feel as though more power comes from the decloak movement than the agility dice.

Yes, you can get through 4 green dice. It's not easy but it can be done.

It's electron like quality that it simultaneously exists in 4 locations at the same time is the big problem. You have to guess where it's going to be and you can't really guess correct because the Phantom gets to change it's mind if you did.

I think if decloaking took place at the start of activation, you could at least react to it, and the Phantom couldn't change it's mind if you guess correctly.

Or, the Phantom must state which direction it is decloaking at the start of activation, and if when it goes to decloak it cannot, it doesn't get to decloak. Or even if it could decloak that way it has the option not to, but it can't decloak in a different direction.

I get the whole mechanic behind the cloak. We don't know where it is because we can't see it, but that shouldn't mean it exists in every possible decloak position at the same time, it isn't an electron. It should only exist in one specific location on the mat, it's just a secret location.

If the Phantom had to define it's position after all the dials are set, I think that would be a fair compromise and reallow a lot more lists back into the game.

Maybe if the decloak happened in the beginning of the Planning Phase it would help out the low PS - mid PS pilots. That would allow ACD to activate with its +2 Agility after the high PS pilot shoots while still allowing the mid level guys some shots. As it stands, when the Phantom decloak happens after all of the low-mid PS ships have moved, many never have the opportunity to fire at all.

Gonna post a real simple, basic truth about this game:

Flying your list well is the mark of a good player, reacting to your opponents list is the mark of a great one.

I disagree to this statement. Because If you don't react to your opponents list then you are not flying your list well.

If you win anyways, even w/out reacting to your opponents list and thus his tactics, then it means that you picked a really good list and/or got lucky with the dice. That is the basic truth.

A depth-analysis of Whisper has little relevance to arguing simple/basic truths about the game. (Whisper was not in this game from the start, the basics of the game where around from game release. New ships changes the nature of the game, and thus they have little to do with the very basics of the game)

To "fix" the phantom all you would have to do is develop a dial for the decloak. This gets put down next to the maneuver dial and revealed before it. Yes its cloaked but it's still in one place and only the owner knows for sure.

I wonder how it would of gone if both named pilots were 2 PS lower. So Echo would've been PS4 and Whisper would of been PS5.

Or if VI simply did not exist.

I wonder how it would of gone if both named pilots were 2 PS lower. So Echo would've been PS4 and Whisper would of been PS5.

Or if VI simply did not exist.

So because you don't like how it interacts with one shop it shouldn't exist? There are tons of useful used for vi they don't involve phantoms...