Just a real quick generalized Rookie vs. Sigma Xwing math problem:

Rookie = 21 pts.

- 3 (Subtract a hull upgrade)

- 2 (Subtract a targetting computer)

+ 1 (Add the cost of the ability to use the evade action - cost equivalent is the MF title card which does just that for the yt1300)

+ 2 (ability to barrell roll - closest cost equivalent is the expert handling EPT, although this doesn't create stress...)

+ 4 (ability to roll an additional attack die - closest cost equivalents are expose and opportunist which allow you to do that and are both 4 pts, although this doesn't have either of those negative effects of stress or agility reduction...)

+ .5 (for 1 pt. in pilot skill - cost equivalent of half of the VI boost of 2 PS for 1 pt.)

Sigma = 23.5 pts. (doesn't account for the additional cloak action ability and the lack of negative impacts of barrell roll and attack die boost - so the real question is, how much is that worth? do you feel that's worth more than 1.5 pts? that cost-value question is a good one.)

Personally, I think the base Phantom is costed pretty spot on. Maybe you can make the arguement it may be a point undercosted so the base Sigma should be 26 instead of 25. That may also be splitting hairs. I have no problems with the 25 pt. base, at all.

Now, the real question of cost vs. value comes from the upgrades...and that's where it becomes a lot different to guage real vs. perceived value.

You are forgetting to add in the cost for the Phantoms crew and system slots. Neither of those are free when costing a ship. And I think the increase from 3 to 4 attack should be costed more like the HLC rather than Expose or opportunist, more than 4 points for sure.

You could probably call the Xwings Astromech slot and the Phantom system slot a wash, but you can't ignore the crew slot, that is worth at least 1 + the modification opportunity cost (Bwing E2 title).

When comparing the Sigma with the Rookie, ask yourself in a vacuum, which ship would your rather take to the fight. 90% of the time the correct answer is the Sigma, it's just flat out a better ship. Choices that closely costed should be much more difficult.

ok, that's fair and that's what I was trying to point out with the upgrades. you've got crew instead of astromech, system instead of torpedo. both of those are more valuable on the phantom in a vaccuum, but still very different. the reason those slots are more valuable though, is because the cost-value of what you can put in those slots currently is better, not really the worth of the slots themselves. this can easily swing back to value nuetral with new droids or upgrades that take better advantage of the torpedo slot or whatever. the value difference actually comes down to the current options between those slots, not the slots themselves. that'd be my arguement, anyways. you don't want to cost penalize something just because the current options are slightly off balance that you have to pay additional cost for anyways. i do get what you're trying to say though.

the HLC-ish cost of the attack die upgrade I can see, but there are still additional positives that way, as well. so, split the difference, and say the value of not taking stress or reducing agility is another point or point and a half? that now puts it cost neutral now with the only thing not figured in is the cloak ability cost. That ability kind of has it's own self nerf in that it doesn't allow you to attack for that round and also takes your action to do it - so no dice mods on the roll. then gives the positional advantage the following round. pros and cons on both sides of that coin evening it out. still, it's an aditional abilty that should cost something, for sure.

Also remember that EH also removes target locks from your ship on top of the barrel roll.

Sigma = 23.5 pts. (doesn't account for the additional cloak action ability and the lack of negative impacts of barrell roll and attack die boost - so the real question is, how much is that worth? do you feel that's worth more than 1.5 pts? that cost-value question is a good one.)

Actually the answer to that is pretty clear... The Cloak action is worth a lot more than that. Not to speak of Systems, Crew and all you forgot.

And as we know Sigmas are not the problem (although even they offer fantastic value!), it's the named Phantoms!

I mentioned this above, but those upgrade slots shouldn't come at a premium just because the options for them are currently far superior than the options on the xwing. now, if it had those in addition to other upgrades, that's obviously a different story. it's just swapping astromech for crew and torpedo for systems. apples to oranges comparison, but they are different ships filling different roles, after all. Regarding the cloak action, I was basically agreeing that option does add additional cost-value and should be taken into account. What that cost should be is what I'm not sure of. On a naked Sigma, I was just saying that everything seems to be somewhat close to appropriate cost, but I could easily see 26 pts. being the Sigma base cost and that'd be fine, too. It's really what the advanced cloaking device allows the high PS pilots to do. That's really it.

Garven (26) vs. Whisper (32) - additional 2 point bump in squad cost over the established base 4 because the ability is superior on Whisper.

Biggs (25) vs. Echo (30) - here, an additional 1 pt bump in base difference based on the ability premium.

Really, everything there looks completely fine, base cost wise. it's when you combine either named Phantom with 1 specific card where the cost/value equation takes an upward turn...

That card is obviously the advanced cloaking device modification. Essentially, becomes a 4 pt. auto include on both pilots as long as you're also using VI in their EPT slot. That 5 pt. combo takes up both those upgrade slots, but is the most efficient and valuable way to use those 5 squad points on each ship, unquestionably. Now, I would say the 4 pt advanced cloak is perfectly costed on the shadow and the sigma. It's not cheap, at all, but gives you some nice unique options as long as you can keep them alive long enough to get that free recloak. Obviously, there's more value out of those 4 pts on Shadows than Sigmas because of the PS boost, but you're also paying a 2 pt premium for that 2 pts in PS. That cost-value gets really tilted when you're now talking about PS9 and 8. It's a tricky card to cost balance, for sure, because it's real value is tied directly to that ship's PS value. The only other card in the game that I can think of that's in the same boat is Stay on Target, which is only 2 pts, but has a lot of restrictions and consequences on how and when it can be used, as well.

Now, do I think that combination needs a 'nerf'? Not at all. The game has evolved over the last 5 waves. There are new threats, new tricks, and new toys in every faction's toy box. Does it kind of suck that we're stuck in a bit of a frustrating spot, meta wise, with the current list of toys where a lot of things are driven towards turrets? Of course. However, what I really like about the way this game is evolving is how each ship is getting upgrades that are specialized to them, which increase that cost-value equation and make them better, while also keeping that individuality - even enhancing that. The Awing has a lot of nice options to play with now, keeping it very distict, but versatile. The Bwing has more options with the ability to field crew slots and differentiates it's potential role and keeps it very distinct. The Ywing is about to get a lot of cool options to specialize and differentiate it further. The TIE Advanced - the perrenial red-headed step child of Xwing since wave 1, now has updates on the way which really bring it back into play, yet keep it very different than everything else. TIE Interceptors are now getting access to Autothrusters, which pair perfectly with their already established ship title of offering double mods, to bring them a way to deal with some of the new toys. The 1 ship that needs something is the Xwing. It doesn't need much, but it needs something. Something distinct, yet versatile, which is thematic for the ship that should be the staple rebel squad building block. I predict that will come in a "XJ Series" title card of some kind that will allow them some unprecedented versatility. Modification cost reduction, perhaps? Couple that with some new mods that synergize with them? More astromechs? Refit-like mod for the Torpedo slot that boosts agility? I don't know, there's a lot of options. Regardless, if the Xwing gets new toy(s) that allow it a more versatile way to help with Phantoms, that will help further diversify the squads you'll see on tournament tables for the rebel player.

FAT FIRESPRAY

Surely that should read FATSPRAY?

edit: .....aaaaaaand now I'm thinking about bacon.

FAT FIRESPRAY

Surely that should read FATSPRAY?

edit: .....aaaaaaand now I'm thinking about bacon.

Always!

When comparing the Sigma with the Rookie, ask yourself in a vacuum, which ship would your rather take to the fight. 90% of the time the correct answer is the Sigma, it's just flat out a better ship. Choices that closely costed should be much more difficult.

For four points difference, the Sigma SHOULD be a much better ship than the Rookie. But it's still not as clear cut as you seem to think. Close the difference, make it a Red vs the Sigma and things get interesting. Hell, you can get Tarn Mison & R7 for the price of a Sigma. Start stacking upgrades onto the Phantom, that's when you see the real difference.

Ok, then... Take a 4 ship rebel list into a tourney and tell us how you get on. I guarantee you, your tune will change about Phantoms and Fat (insert ship here).

...or - if you know what you're doing - you'll get on just fine, like the others in this thread did.

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

Stop demanding nerfs

Stuck up, half-witted, scruffy looking...

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I agree with HOBO. Just before Wave 4, there were a vast variety of competitive lists. Swarms, 2 rebel ships, 3 or 4, and the same with empire. Now if you go to a tournament, yo basically will find 3 different kind of lists:

- Phantom + Decimator

- Fat Han / Super Dash + support ships

- Tie Swarm

And in my opinion, I mainly blame the great advantages of the Phantom, which can be only stopped with 9+PS turrets or with Swarms, and that has "crushed" the meta.

I also agree that C3-PO is overpowered, that card in my opinion should cost about 6 points.

I also agree that C3-PO is overpowered, that card in my opinion should cost about 6 points.

Ahaha! Yeah sure...

....

It was a joke, right?

I personally never liked how ACD was handled (even though it is perfectly fair on its own) because its effectiveness depends solely on other factors making its 4 point cost anywhere from almost a complete waste to auto-include. It is after all ACD paired with VI that creates what so many complain about.

What I think would have been better is something along the lines of: "If this ship has not attacked this turn, and is targeted by an attack, it may take a cloak action before any dice are rolled."

Turns it into an active defense useful for all Phantoms, and makes it a choice between going offense and taking it on the chin, of going defense and letting your opponent go without a scratch. But I am sure others could come up with something much better.

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Ironically, OP is just as bad as the people he is complaining about, in that he's just bringing negativity and divisiveness to this forum with his post. Basically a whiner whining about other people's whining. If you're getting tired of seeing threads complaining about balance, then the appropriate mature response is to stop reading those threads and start making the content that you want to see.

I recently decided that I wanted to do my best to improve at this game in spite of whatever balance issues there are, and the large amount of speculative threads on how the game could be designed better don't help me achieve that, but instead of whining about it, I mostly just ignore all the "what if" threads and just stick to the threads that deal with reality, and I've even gone and made my own blog on tumblr dedicated to getting better at playing X-Wing. I don't even care if anyone reads it, but I know that thinking about things in a way that I can write about it and present it to strangers so that it makes sense will help me get better at the game.

Take responsibility and be the change you want to see in the world. The only person's behavior you can change is your own, so if you want to see more constructive posts on these forums, then be the one to make them.

Academy Pilot is definitely OP.

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Honest Question: why would a good Phantom player ever put their Phantom in front Luke? If I was running Chiraneau + Whisper and somebody put that list in front of me, I'd just keep Whisper on the other side of the board and let them chew on my Decimator (nice Wedge lol) and then once Chiraneau has traded with Biggs and Luke, Whisper will finish off the other 2. If I have a 40 point Phantom and you have a 32 point Wedge when time is called, I win right?

This does prove though that the Phantom is not a noob win-button. It takes a modicum of intelligence (or whatever small amount I have) to realize that the Phantom is a late game ship and doesn't need to be the first ship you send in against your opponent's full strength squad. I remember when I got back into this game for a few weeks in August before taking a break again, I brought a Phantom to a tournament, and the 2 games I won were the ones where I kept my Phantom out of the fight and let my other 2 ships thin out their list before cleaning up with the Phantom.

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Honest Question: why would a good Phantom player ever put their Phantom in front Luke? If I was running Chiraneau + Whisper and somebody put that list in front of me, I'd just keep Whisper on the other side of the board and let them chew on my Decimator (nice Wedge lol) and then once Chiraneau has traded with Biggs and Luke, Whisper will finish off the other 2. If I have a 40 point Phantom and you have a 32 point Wedge when time is called, I win right?

This does prove though that the Phantom is not a noob win-button. It takes a modicum of intelligence (or whatever small amount I have) to realize that the Phantom is a late game ship and doesn't need to be the first ship you send in against your opponent's full strength squad. I remember when I got back into this game for a few weeks in August before taking a break again, I brought a Phantom to a tournament, and the 2 games I won were the ones where I kept my Phantom out of the fight and let my other 2 ships thin out their list before cleaning up with the Phantom.

Yeah, the Phantom isn't a "I win" button. It does take skill. But assuming even skill, the phantom pilot wins 9 out of 10 times. A buddy of mine got a Phantom and he sucked with it at first and it seemed beatable. Now his skill has caught up and it just destroys my teams.

No matter how you really cut it, the 4 attack dice alone is too much. If it catches any fighter at range 1, it probably kills it. An it has so much more than just broken attack dice....

People complain about ordinance being weak, maybe that's because they put out ships that do the same or more damage with basic attacks? Hmm...

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Honest Question: why would a good Phantom player ever put their Phantom in front Luke? If I was running Chiraneau + Whisper and somebody put that list in front of me, I'd just keep Whisper on the other side of the board and let them chew on my Decimator (nice Wedge lol) and then once Chiraneau has traded with Biggs and Luke, Whisper will finish off the other 2. If I have a 40 point Phantom and you have a 32 point Wedge when time is called, I win right?

This does prove though that the Phantom is not a noob win-button. It takes a modicum of intelligence (or whatever small amount I have) to realize that the Phantom is a late game ship and doesn't need to be the first ship you send in against your opponent's full strength squad. I remember when I got back into this game for a few weeks in August before taking a break again, I brought a Phantom to a tournament, and the 2 games I won were the ones where I kept my Phantom out of the fight and let my other 2 ships thin out their list before cleaning up with the Phantom.

Honest Answer: because at some point the Phantom player WILL attempt to engage with the Phantom. Offset deployment, head on, center deployment, the options are fairly limited on a 3x3 surface to run and hide. It is harder for some to watch the Decimator take all of the punishment while 4 of your 7 attack dice are floating around doing nothing for your team. The moment you angle in after flying around, hiding from what you feel is inferior, is the moment your Phantom is crushed. Of course, you are not the only one who says that running around is the best way to keep the Phantom from getting shot down early and someone always seems to say that would be their strategy. You might lol at Wedge, but he is not there for the Decimator. He is there to OHKO stressed Phantoms so I don't have to waste my time with them.

Maybe it is just easy for me so see what is going on because I hate the Phantom so much that it has consumed all of my play testing and strategy testing. I own a Phantom and I know it's dial without having to glance at a reference card, I can visualize all of the decloak options and yet I have never flown it. It's not even fun playing against high PS ACD Phantoms anymore because once I figured them out, it became as monotonous as taking out the trash.

Or the Phantom can just run. 40ish point Phantom left when I probably still have 75 left? I'll take that win.

Had the OP posted more eloquently I would have agreed but that paragraph...

Academy Pilot is definitely OP.

No, it's AP

The Obsidian is OP

Yeah, the Phantom isn't a "I win" button. It does take skill. But assuming even skill, the phantom pilot wins 9 out of 10 times. A buddy of mine got a Phantom and he sucked with it at first and it seemed beatable. Now his skill has caught up and it just destroys my teams.

No matter how you really cut it, the 4 attack dice alone is too much. If it catches any fighter at range 1, it probably kills it. An it has so much more than just broken attack dice....

People complain about ordinance being weak, maybe that's because they put out ships that do the same or more damage with basic attacks? Hmm...

Exactly the point I was trying to get across. Never said you can't win with any XXXX or XXXZ list against a Phantom, but its an uphill battle.

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Ok, so you had PS9 Wedge in your list. That's a Phantom counter. Would you take a list to an event without a hard Phantom counter? Would you swap out Wedge for either Luke, Porkins, or Farlander all without VI? Of course not, nor should you. That's the point, and the problem. There is no other ship that EVERY list must have a tool to deal with. If you bring Bloody Daggers, 2 Reds and 2 Daggers with AdvSensors, you will do very very well against the Falcons lists and just about everything else, but you will be in serious trouble against an Echo or Whisper list. Can you beat a Phantom with Bloody Daggers? Sure anything is possible, but I triple dog dare you to take Bloody Daggers to a Store Championship. Let us know how you do.

I dare anyone to take a list with all PS7 and lower ships, with no turret, and with no stress mechanic to a Store Championship. The majority of available cards and upgrades fit into those list requirements that anyone should be able to field a competitive list using just those cards. But no one does, and it's likely no one will.

Maybe I'm wrong, but sozin's list juggler should gather enough data on the state of things in the Store Championships to tell us how well lists without hard Phantom counters actually do. I know where I'd put my money.

PS 9 wedge is a hard counter? I thought xwings sucked? Oh wait it's just the generics supposedly...

Many of the things you mentioned are useful in general (turrets stress inducers) you need to be ready for anything...that includes phantoms, falcons, and anything else generally considered good. Why are you asking him to fight a phantom without taking any of the several, very useful, tools you described. That's a strawman if I ever saw one...

Wes (29)

*V.I (1)

*R3-A2 (2)

*Engine Upgrade (4)

Go forth and frolic, my brethren!

disclaimer: effective at playing competitively in the Wave 5 meta, not at making it any less dull

PS 9 wedge is a hard counter? I thought xwings sucked? Oh wait it's just the generics supposedly...

Many of the things you mentioned are useful in general (turrets stress inducers) you need to be ready for anything...that includes phantoms, falcons, and anything else generally considered good. Why are you asking him to fight a phantom without taking any of the several, very useful, tools you described. That's a strawman if I ever saw one...

The list in question has Wedge with Predator, Luke with VI and R3A2, Biggs and a Bandit. That entire list is designed to kill Phantoms. I'm simply calling attention to the fact that beating a Phantom with a list specifically designed to kill Phantoms isn't much of an accomplishment. I have a 3 Awing list that's specifically designed to kill Phantoms that's never once lost to a Phantom list, but it shouldn't.

The issue is list design space. Let's say there are a billion possible combinations of pilot and upgrade cards that would make a legal list. I'm not sure what the actual number is, but it's going to be massive. To reliably deal with Phantoms, you need PS9+, turrets, or stress. Just by forcing lists to include those you probably cut the list design space from a billion to a few million possible lists. The Phantom has forced us to include those. My "dare" was to get someone who believes the Phantom is just fine to use one of the lists in the 900 million lists that don't include PS9+, turrets, or stress and beat Phantoms regularly. In those 900 million lists there should be millions of lists that should be usable, but they just aren't anymore.

And look I don't know how many list combinations there actually are, or how many would exist if you had to have PS9+, turrets or stress. Those are my estimates, I didn't really want to sit down and try to figure out how many possible lists there are, that's a lot of math and pattern finding. Just please take my estimates as a way to illustrate my point.

Given even skill level, a Phantom build will crush a 4 ship rebel build. You are only going to win on a regular basis if the Phantom player screws up, or the dice completely go your way.

That statement is a complete mess of contradictions. So - you're telling me that the only way that a 4 ship Rebel build (any four ship build? Or just X-Wings?) can regularly (i.e. consistently) win against a Phantom build is by either the Phantom player screwing up (an inconsistent event) or by luck of the dice (also an inconsistent event)?

So you're saying the Rebel player is only ever going to consistently win through random chance?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (and the opportunity to re-evaluate your argument) before I roflcopter right out of the thread...

I'm with Gecko on this one. I have flown against a lot of high PS Phantoms + VI +ACD while using 4 (small) ship Rebels (XXXZ in my sig). Versus these builds, I have not lost since October and I have taken first place twice, second twice (MoV losses yet still undefeated) and a third place finish (Wedge decided to stop rolling hits or evades vs a Decimator). I'm fairly certain I did not stumble around in the dark, blindly pointing all of my guns in random directions. No, instead I let the Phantom guy do his crazy little tricks, I shoot first, give him the stress, and burn it down as his 40whatever point ship is forced to waste a shot on biggs during simultaneous attack (or in echo's case the Phantom was just a huge waste in points, blooming into a blue fireball of vapor in the asteroid field).

I have no respect for high PS Phantoms. I chomp at the bit and hope that high PS Phantoms and Decimator dual ship builds become more popular because of the ease of wiping them with my list.

Honest Question: why would a good Phantom player ever put their Phantom in front Luke? If I was running Chiraneau + Whisper and somebody put that list in front of me, I'd just keep Whisper on the other side of the board and let them chew on my Decimator (nice Wedge lol) and then once Chiraneau has traded with Biggs and Luke, Whisper will finish off the other 2. If I have a 40 point Phantom and you have a 32 point Wedge when time is called, I win right?

This does prove though that the Phantom is not a noob win-button. It takes a modicum of intelligence (or whatever small amount I have) to realize that the Phantom is a late game ship and doesn't need to be the first ship you send in against your opponent's full strength squad. I remember when I got back into this game for a few weeks in August before taking a break again, I brought a Phantom to a tournament, and the 2 games I won were the ones where I kept my Phantom out of the fight and let my other 2 ships thin out their list before cleaning up with the Phantom.

Honest Answer: because at some point the Phantom player WILL attempt to engage with the Phantom. Offset deployment, head on, center deployment, the options are fairly limited on a 3x3 surface to run and hide. It is harder for some to watch the Decimator take all of the punishment while 4 of your 7 attack dice are floating around doing nothing for your team. The moment you angle in after flying around, hiding from what you feel is inferior, is the moment your Phantom is crushed. Of course, you are not the only one who says that running around is the best way to keep the Phantom from getting shot down early and someone always seems to say that would be their strategy. You might lol at Wedge, but he is not there for the Decimator. He is there to OHKO stressed Phantoms so I don't have to waste my time with them.

Maybe it is just easy for me so see what is going on because I hate the Phantom so much that it has consumed all of my play testing and strategy testing. I own a Phantom and I know it's dial without having to glance at a reference card, I can visualize all of the decloak options and yet I have never flown it. It's not even fun playing against high PS ACD Phantoms anymore because once I figured them out, it became as monotonous as taking out the trash.

Or the Phantom can just run. 40ish point Phantom left when I probably still have 75 left? I'll take that win.

You talk like if every single ship of yours gets a shot on it, which is extremely unlikely given the Phantom's mobility!

I do disagree. something doesn't need to be invincible to be overpowered. Often unbalance can be very subtle.

Maybe on paper something looks fine but in practice it may show it's true colors simply by limiting your opponent's options much, much more than any other ship would. "It can be killed! You even killed it before the game ended!" you might say but it doesn't change the fact that your opponent spent the entire match having to strategize every single micro move to keep up while your only requirement to win was to fly into blaster range and roll your dice without screwing up royally and flying off the map.

Another example of unbalance is that the meta revolves around either specifically countering a card or ship or playing it yourself and anything else that pops up is seen as simply a fun gimmick.

Tie Phantoms the obvious go-to guy for examples of such. They are overpowered for both obvious reason and subtle ones. Obviously the 4 attack dice (More than anything else in the game) is a major glaring point of unbalance. "What is it's weakness?" you might ask. Well it's weakness is that it's "merely" as evasive as an X-Wing or Z-95. oooo that's a harsh downside. Others need to equip Proton rockets or combos to even get one chance to come close to the damage printed on that ship's card. Even without cloaking devices, Tie Phantoms would be nasty opponents that overshadow pretty much everything else. And of course they can be cloaked which increases their evasion to the highest of any ship in the game.

The subtle overpowerment on the ships is exemplified by the absurd movement decloaking gives them. As long as they can move last and shoot first they can pretty much do what they want. pop up anywhere on the map. That ability that boosts their evade to higher than any ship in the game also has the added effect of letting them boost or barrel roll before moving without even using their action. oh yes, using this ability effectively requires some thought and strategy your ego likes to hear you say but that's thought and strategy that every other ship in the game doesn't even have access to. A unique advantage which means you are allowed to do things that no other ship is allowed to do without being called for cheating. You don't win with a Phantom because you were Mr. Smarty pants. It was simply privilege.

That's unbalance.

+100

So many players like to bleat about how you need to 'learn' to fly your list, or change what you fly.

Isn't the game supposed to be balanced? If I fly 100pts worth of Rookies with Protons... isn't that supposed to be balanced with 100pts of whatever the opponent flies?

Clearly not.

Is the game balanced when your opponent moves after you do and can adjust his final position with barrel rolls, boosts and decloaking?

Clearly not.