I can't see why they would ever give the Sycke inteceptor the option to equip torps and missles unless a fix was on its way.

And the Y-wing already has been fixed, Most Wanted accomplished that.

Well they had Torps and Missile options on many ships in their current weak form. To me that's no guaranteed fix...

Considering the Y-Wing, there need to be new Rebel pilots and even the old ones should really have EPTs. Without that Rebels can not make much good out of the BTL-A4. Scum have one named where it makes sense only. The bomb option is nice, but bombs have not been that popular either.

The power level of the Y-Wing, with exception of Kavil is in my eyes the same as before the fix, just with some more options now!

I can't see why they would ever give the Sycke inteceptor the option to equip torps and missles unless a fix was on its way.

And the Y-wing already has been fixed, Most Wanted accomplished that.

They must know torps arnt seeing play and I'm sure they are working on something but they'll release it when it's up to scratch.

I agree though they wouldn't bother with a missile scyk if they didn't think it would see use eventually.

I can't see why they would ever give the Sycke inteceptor the option to equip torps and missles unless a fix was on its way.

And the Y-wing already has been fixed, Most Wanted accomplished that.

They must know torps arnt seeing play and I'm sure they are working on something but they'll release it when it's up to scratch.

I agree though they wouldn't bother with a missile scyk if they didn't think it would see use eventually.

Not every card is necessarily designed with top tier play in mind. The missiles/torp part of the upgrade could just be a thematic thing.

I can't see why they would ever give the Sycke inteceptor the option to equip torps and missles unless a fix was on its way.

And the Y-wing already has been fixed, Most Wanted accomplished that.

They must know torps arnt seeing play and I'm sure they are working on something but they'll release it when it's up to scratch.

I agree though they wouldn't bother with a missile scyk if they didn't think it would see use eventually.

Not every card is necessarily designed with top tier play in mind. The missiles/torp part of the upgrade could just be a thematic thing.

Agreed. It might also be something like: "We know Missiles/Torps aren't overpowered, so lets give them the option just in case someone thinks of something cool to do with it."

I can't see why they would ever give the Sycke inteceptor the option to equip torps and missles unless a fix was on its way.

And the Y-wing already has been fixed, Most Wanted accomplished that.

They must know torps arnt seeing play and I'm sure they are working on something but they'll release it when it's up to scratch.

I agree though they wouldn't bother with a missile scyk if they didn't think it would see use eventually.

Not every card is necessarily designed with top tier play in mind. The missiles/torp part of the upgrade could just be a thematic thing.

Agreed. It might also be something like: "We know Missiles/Torps aren't overpowered, so lets give them the option just in case someone thinks of something cool to do with it."

Quoting from the Scyk's Wookieepedia article:

Although the Scyk barely provided more amenities to its pilot than a TIE/LN starfighter did, it had two strong points - it was cheap and its weapon mount was designed to handle nearly anything. Its standard equipment consisted of a weapon, an engine, a reactor, a capacitor and a weak shield generator. Its laser cannon could be easily swapped for an ion cannon, concussion missiles or a proton torpedo launcher.

So as Sithborg says, the ability to mount missiles or torpedoes is a theme thing.

The Bombers and Ys I think are going to stress FFG's "never look back" philosophy that they've been sticking to since they put PTL in imperial aces (but forgot the Alphas!)

Bombers have problems mostly because ordinance has problems (too expensive, far too finnicky, far too unreliable, just all around kind of sucky)

Elite Ys have problems because they lack native EPT (and in Horton's case...ordinance, too)

The only way to fix these is to go back and pen in some discrete but very much appreciated changes (the prox mine errata was a very good start)

I hear people like Defenders and I respect their opinion (the ship is **** cool), but I am incapable of seeing how it was priced higher than the phantom even and perhaps especially comparing generics (seriously, Sigmas w/FCS, Stygium, and Int agent will kick your ass while Deltas...will k-turn at you a lot?). Considering they were released in the same wave, their prices relative to one another baffle me.

Well, those are issues for another time, I'm afraid. Until FFG settles down to pretty up the previous waves' flops, we're just going to have to make due with what we have.

Imo, with Wave 6 I believe "what we have" is about to become a fairly more inclusive category

The only thing wrong with ordinance in Hortons case is the stigma most players put on it.

The most likely dice result of a Proton Torpedo attack from Horton is 3 hits and 1 crit (or 2 and 2) which is amazing.

I use the Horton with torps a lot and the only real problem is when I manage to roll multiple focus results on the dice (and can't re-roll those results) otherwise he hits as hard or harder than any HLC barring Farlander (who'll be more expensive).

Empire players have a lot more experience fighting against Phantom and turret lists using non turreted ships. If the meta moves away from Han rebel players will suffer against the Empire players. But as they relearn to fly small ships and their lists start to innovate again they should do well. PTL outmaneuvr Green Squadron pilots are great, B wings are still tanks, and the additional agility on X wings will help against the rise of accuracy corrector Advances.

Thats just totally incorrect. Stop suggesting Rebel players are not as good at flying small ships because it's just not true. The problem is that Rebel players don't have any real good small ships like Empire has.

Saying the Rebels don't have any real good small ships is also incorrect.

The Z-95, X-wing and B-wing are all **** fine ships in a good players hands. Even if the X-wing suffers a little bit in comparison to the B-wing its still good.

I recently took down Turr Phennir and Soontir Fel with a pair of Tala Z's with good ol' conk missiles. Had the squints arc-dodging so hard they couldn't line up decent shots and eventually their luck ran out and they each ate a missile in the tail pipe. Didn't kill Soontir outright but he only had one hull left and was facing 3 angry ships (I lost a Grey Y-wing downing Kenkirk's Decimator)

I can't see why they would ever give the Sycke inteceptor the option to equip torps and missles unless a fix was on its way.

And the Y-wing already has been fixed, Most Wanted accomplished that.

They must know torps arnt seeing play and I'm sure they are working on something but they'll release it when it's up to scratch.

I agree though they wouldn't bother with a missile scyk if they didn't think it would see use eventually.

If you pair Proton Torpedoes with any kind of re-roll (Predator, Jonus, Horton) they are good.

A decent opponent can't afford to risk you getting a solid hit and that drastically affects they're maneuvers.

Only reason I haven't run Jonus w/ Predator and dual Scimitars all with Proton Torpedoes is because I only own 2 bombers and I don't feel Jonus is cheap enough to be worth it if he's not supporting at least 2 other ships with secondaries. (If he benefited from his own rule it'd be different.

Only thing you need to make Concussion Missiles work is to hold them and the TL till you have a Focus token and then they're roughly equivalent to Proton Torpedoes with a re-roll. (averaging four hits a shot).

TL;DR:

Predator (or another source of re-roll) for Proton Torpedoes = 3 hits + 1 crit (or 2 + 2).

Focus (PTL or patience) for Concussion Missiles = 4 hits (or 3 hits + 1 crit)

I've used too much ordinance to believe the hype, its actually the newer stuff that's of dubious value (compared to Protorps and Conks). You just need to support it in your build and play-style; like every else you put in a list.

The Bombers and Ys I think are going to stress FFG's "never look back" philosophy that they've been sticking to since they put PTL in imperial aces (but forgot the Alphas!)

Bombers have problems mostly because ordinance has problems (too expensive, far too finnicky, far too unreliable, just all around kind of sucky)

Elite Ys have problems because they lack native EPT (and in Horton's case...ordinance, too)

The only way to fix these is to go back and pen in some discrete but very much appreciated changes (the prox mine errata was a very good start)

I hear people like Defenders and I respect their opinion (the ship is **** cool), but I am incapable of seeing how it was priced higher than the phantom even and perhaps especially comparing generics (seriously, Sigmas w/FCS, Stygium, and Int agent will kick your ass while Deltas...will k-turn at you a lot?). Considering they were released in the same wave, their prices relative to one another baffle me.

Well, those are issues for another time, I'm afraid. Until FFG settles down to pretty up the previous waves' flops, we're just going to have to make due with what we have.

Imo, with Wave 6 I believe "what we have" is about to become a fairly more inclusive category

The only thing wrong with ordinance in Hortons case is the stigma most players put on it.

The most likely dice result of a Proton Torpedo attack from Horton is 3 hits and 1 crit (or 2 and 2) which is amazing.

I use the Horton with torps a lot and the only real problem is when I manage to roll multiple focus results on the dice (and can't re-roll those results) otherwise he hits as hard or harder than any HLC barring Farlander (who'll be more expensive).

Empire players have a lot more experience fighting against Phantom and turret lists using non turreted ships. If the meta moves away from Han rebel players will suffer against the Empire players. But as they relearn to fly small ships and their lists start to innovate again they should do well. PTL outmaneuvr Green Squadron pilots are great, B wings are still tanks, and the additional agility on X wings will help against the rise of accuracy corrector Advances.

Thats just totally incorrect. Stop suggesting Rebel players are not as good at flying small ships because it's just not true. The problem is that Rebel players don't have any real good small ships like Empire has.

Saying the Rebels don't have any real good small ships is also incorrect.

The Z-95, X-wing and B-wing are all **** fine ships in a good players hands. Even if the X-wing suffers a little bit in comparison to the B-wing its still good.

I recently took down Turr Phennir and Soontir Fel with a pair of Tala Z's with good ol' conk missiles. Had the squints arc-dodging so hard they couldn't line up decent shots and eventually their luck ran out and they each ate a missile in the tail pipe. Didn't kill Soontir outright but he only had one hull left and was facing 3 angry ships (I lost a Grey Y-wing downing Kenkirk's Decimator)

I can't see why they would ever give the Sycke inteceptor the option to equip torps and missles unless a fix was on its way.

And the Y-wing already has been fixed, Most Wanted accomplished that.

They must know torps arnt seeing play and I'm sure they are working on something but they'll release it when it's up to scratch.

I agree though they wouldn't bother with a missile scyk if they didn't think it would see use eventually.

If you pair Proton Torpedoes with any kind of re-roll (Predator, Jonus, Horton) they are good.

A decent opponent can't afford to risk you getting a solid hit and that drastically affects they're maneuvers.

Only reason I haven't run Jonus w/ Predator and dual Scimitars all with Proton Torpedoes is because I only own 2 bombers and I don't feel Jonus is cheap enough to be worth it if he's not supporting at least 2 other ships with secondaries. (If he benefited from his own rule it'd be different.

Only thing you need to make Concussion Missiles work is to hold them and the TL till you have a Focus token and then they're roughly equivalent to Proton Torpedoes with a re-roll. (averaging four hits a shot).

TL;DR:

Predator (or another source of re-roll) for Proton Torpedoes = 3 hits + 1 crit (or 2 + 2).

Focus (PTL or patience) for Concussion Missiles = 4 hits (or 3 hits + 1 crit)

I've used too much ordinance to believe the hype, its actually the newer stuff that's of dubious value (compared to Protorps and Conks). You just need to support it in your build and play-style; like every else you put in a list.

To be fair nearly everyone bashes bombers, while I know from personal experience you just need to practice with them, the negative stigma attatched to them usually puts players off of doing that. Could be a similar experience with torps and such. I do have my doubts about that though having used them extensivley myself, I do agree that Protons with re-rolls are pretty devistating, not usually worth the points though.

On a side note Ion Torps could be good when scum cycles in.

The only thing wrong with ordinance in Hortons case is the stigma most players put on it.

The most likely dice result of a Proton Torpedo attack from Horton is 3 hits and 1 crit (or 2 and 2) which is amazing.

I use the Horton with torps a lot and the only real problem is when I manage to roll multiple focus results on the dice (and can't re-roll those results) otherwise he hits as hard or harder than any HLC barring Farlander (who'll be more expensive).

You can't really make a case for ordnance being ok because one high PS pilot with an awesome ability doesn't suck with it to bad if you make him the centerpiece of your list. Horton's high PS gets him around the problem of not being able to get a TL on a target that you'll have a shot on, and his ability gets around the problem of ordnance being not getting modified dice. Horton may hit almost as hard as Keyan with an HLC but he only does it twice per game, even though he has spent more on ordnance than Keyan spent on that HLC.

Empire players have a lot more experience fighting against Phantom and turret lists using non turreted ships. If the meta moves away from Han rebel players will suffer against the Empire players. But as they relearn to fly small ships and their lists start to innovate again they should do well. PTL outmaneuvr Green Squadron pilots are great, B wings are still tanks, and the additional agility on X wings will help against the rise of accuracy corrector Advances.

Thats just totally incorrect. Stop suggesting Rebel players are not as good at flying small ships because it's just not true. The problem is that Rebel players don't have any real good small ships like Empire has.

A wings prototype with proton rockets can flank and apply pressure to an enemy. They either devert their forces to deal with the prot or take it in the side. Green Squadron pilots can super customize with two EPTs and chaaridin refit. Really the only limit is ones imagination with those things. Tycho with daredevil and PTL is amazing. Try cornering that when he can make 225 degree turns.

B wings ruled the Rebel meta before the huge ships. The generics are great workhorses. Especially with advanced sensors to greatly reduce their blockage. The named pilots are great as well. Ten Numb is a classic choice, now Farlander can operate like a mini Fel with his stress conversion, and Nera can 360 flechettes to shut down PTL Interceptors.

Hawks may not pack to much offensive power right now, but they are excellent support ships. Making a ship pilot skill 12 and then chaining it to other ships with swarm tactics will catch many a Phantoms by suprise.

X wing genetics are excellent in their genericnesss. Prior to the huge ship release they often flew in blocks of four or with two B wings. Their extra agility point will also help against accuracy corrector, while Bs and Ys will always take atleast one damage at ranges one and two. And if you want pilot abilities the X wing will not let you down. Wes negates one agility and can punish the fragile, agility depended Imperial ships. Wes with VI is a major threat to Imperial ships. Having their evade or focus stripped Will reduce their ability to survive your attacks or their ability to deal damage if you strip a focus. Tarn Mison can punish those that attack him, or even potentially negate their attack with R7-T1.

The YTs are still awesome against every Empire ship that doesn't have access to AT. So every ship but the Interceptor....

And I'm sorry, but if the introduction of auto thrusters alone invalidates the entire Rebel meta/all their ships then it is time to hit the simulators again and get some practice flying.

Bombers and Y-Wings are great in Epic with Munitions Failsafe. Gold Squadron is still very good in points. It may be they're not perfect in every roll.

I doubt you missed any sarcasm, some posters have just gone of the deep end.

The only thing wrong with ordinance in Hortons case is the stigma most players put on it.

The most likely dice result of a Proton Torpedo attack from Horton is 3 hits and 1 crit (or 2 and 2) which is amazing.

I use the Horton with torps a lot and the only real problem is when I manage to roll multiple focus results on the dice (and can't re-roll those results) otherwise he hits as hard or harder than any HLC barring Farlander (who'll be more expensive).

(.....)

Saying the Rebels don't have any real good small ships is also incorrect.

The Z-95, X-wing and B-wing are all **** fine ships in a good players hands. Even if the X-wing suffers a little bit in comparison to the B-wing its still good.

I recently took down Turr Phennir and Soontir Fel with a pair of Tala Z's with good ol' conk missiles. Had the squints arc-dodging so hard they couldn't line up decent shots and eventually their luck ran out and they each ate a missile in the tail pipe. Didn't kill Soontir outright but he only had one hull left and was facing 3 angry ships (I lost a Grey Y-wing downing Kenkirk's Decimator)If you pair Proton Torpedoes with any kind of re-roll (Predator, Jonus, Horton) they are good.

A decent opponent can't afford to risk you getting a solid hit and that drastically affects they're maneuvers.

(.......)

Only reason I haven't run Jonus w/ Predator and dual Scimitars all with Proton Torpedoes is because I only own 2 bombers and I don't feel Jonus is cheap enough to be worth it if he's not supporting at least 2 other ships with secondaries. (If he benefited from his own rule it'd be different.

Only thing you need to make Concussion Missiles work is to hold them and the TL till you have a Focus token and then they're roughly equivalent to Proton Torpedoes with a re-roll. (averaging four hits a shot).

TL;DR:

Predator (or another source of re-roll) for Proton Torpedoes = 3 hits + 1 crit (or 2 + 2).

Focus (PTL or patience) for Concussion Missiles = 4 hits (or 3 hits + 1 crit)

I've used too much ordinance to believe the hype, its actually the newer stuff that's of dubious value (compared to Protorps and Conks). You just need to support it in your build and play-style; like every else you put in a list.

Theres so much anecdotal with your post my head spins. You had someone flee with BOTH Turr and Fel from two Concussion Tala's? With the R1 weak spot? And that shoot years after both of the Imperial pilots? I'm not calling you a liar, i just don't think you had a very good opponent. Im glad you've managed to get ordinance to work for you fairly regularly, but you're an anomaly. And yeah, Salm can hit hard, but a Bwing with some upgrades can do what he does for cheaper, and gives you more firepower over the match.

The problem is the same one we've been having for months: Han is the simply the best build Rebels have right now, by far. Nothing in Wave 6 is set to change that unless you think Y-wings with title are all set to lead a renaissance. Autothrusters will punish turret lists, thus weakening Han lists. If there was a viable alternative to Han don't you think we'd see ti by now?

We haven't, and while i will accept a certain amount of hive mentality stymies list building, i can't believe we have this many people who can't figure something else out if it was possible.

So I have a idea for a wave 6 meta rebel build...

Han + Pred + C-3PO + Luke + Title + EU (64)

Wes + VI + R7T1 + EI (34)

=100

So the idea with Han is because he has predator and Luke (and his pilot ability) he can still perform without

normal dice mod, so he can K-Turn or boost pretty often without regrets (to fire at a token less Soontir). Wes Can Boost Target Lock and focus for a pretty good attack and strip soontirs double focus evade. A alternative to this would be hull upgrade to replace experimental interface but I think I like it how it is. Any ideas or thoughts?

The only thing wrong with ordinance in Hortons case is the stigma most players put on it.

The most likely dice result of a Proton Torpedo attack from Horton is 3 hits and 1 crit (or 2 and 2) which is amazing.

I use the Horton with torps a lot and the only real problem is when I manage to roll multiple focus results on the dice (and can't re-roll those results) otherwise he hits as hard or harder than any HLC barring Farlander (who'll be more expensive).

(.....)

Saying the Rebels don't have any real good small ships is also incorrect.

The Z-95, X-wing and B-wing are all **** fine ships in a good players hands. Even if the X-wing suffers a little bit in comparison to the B-wing its still good.

I recently took down Turr Phennir and Soontir Fel with a pair of Tala Z's with good ol' conk missiles. Had the squints arc-dodging so hard they couldn't line up decent shots and eventually their luck ran out and they each ate a missile in the tail pipe. Didn't kill Soontir outright but he only had one hull left and was facing 3 angry ships (I lost a Grey Y-wing downing Kenkirk's Decimator)If you pair Proton Torpedoes with any kind of re-roll (Predator, Jonus, Horton) they are good.

A decent opponent can't afford to risk you getting a solid hit and that drastically affects they're maneuvers.

(.......)

Only reason I haven't run Jonus w/ Predator and dual Scimitars all with Proton Torpedoes is because I only own 2 bombers and I don't feel Jonus is cheap enough to be worth it if he's not supporting at least 2 other ships with secondaries. (If he benefited from his own rule it'd be different.

Only thing you need to make Concussion Missiles work is to hold them and the TL till you have a Focus token and then they're roughly equivalent to Proton Torpedoes with a re-roll. (averaging four hits a shot).

TL;DR:

Predator (or another source of re-roll) for Proton Torpedoes = 3 hits + 1 crit (or 2 + 2).

Focus (PTL or patience) for Concussion Missiles = 4 hits (or 3 hits + 1 crit)

I've used too much ordinance to believe the hype, its actually the newer stuff that's of dubious value (compared to Protorps and Conks). You just need to support it in your build and play-style; like every else you put in a list.

Theres so much anecdotal with your post my head spins. You had someone flee with BOTH Turr and Fel from two Concussion Tala's? With the R1 weak spot? And that shoot years after both of the Imperial pilots? I'm not calling you a liar, i just don't think you had a very good opponent. Im glad you've managed to get ordinance to work for you fairly regularly, but you're an anomaly. And yeah, Salm can hit hard, but a Bwing with some upgrades can do what he does for cheaper, and gives you more firepower over the match.

The problem is the same one we've been having for months: Han is the simply the best build Rebels have right now, by far. Nothing in Wave 6 is set to change that unless you think Y-wings with title are all set to lead a renaissance. Autothrusters will punish turret lists, thus weakening Han lists. If there was a viable alternative to Han don't you think we'd see ti by now?

We haven't, and while i will accept a certain amount of hive mentality stymies list building, i can't believe we have this many people who can't figure something else out if it was possible.

My opponent didn't go for Range 1 because that meant he'd have to use his actions for positioning instead of focus or evade tokens. Neither Z-95 ever took damage since my opponent wanted to kill Horton and my Gray Squadron with predator before they killed his Decimator. Dropping into Range 1 of a 4 health ship with a TL was not something my opponent wanted to do. He couldn't expect to one shot the Z's and he felt he'd take as much damage as he dealt. There was also a Decimator blundering about getting in everyone's way. He accidently blocked a number of his own maneuver options (boosts or barrel rolls) with his own large ship. I was also playing against my most common opponent so I guessed at least 75% of his moves after we hit Range 3.

My opponent did however keep me from ever firing a Proton Torpedo and the Y-Wings had 2 each and he also kept me from have both a focus token and a shot with Zs for most of the game. So he wasn't the only one who suffered on a count of trying the same trick too many times.

As far as HLCs go I find I rarely get more than two shots off because of either Range or attrition. I find that I need to field Biggs with any HLC B-wing in order to make it a better option than a Y-wing with torps and I'm reluctant to pay the extra cost and force myself to fly in tight formation.

Empire players have a lot more experience fighting against Phantom and turret lists using non turreted ships. If the meta moves away from Han rebel players will suffer against the Empire players. But as they relearn to fly small ships and their lists start to innovate again they should do well. PTL outmaneuvr Green Squadron pilots are great, B wings are still tanks, and the additional agility on X wings will help against the rise of accuracy corrector Advances.

Thats just totally incorrect. Stop suggesting Rebel players are not as good at flying small ships because it's just not true. The problem is that Rebel players don't have any real good small ships like Empire has.

I really hope you are being sarcastic and I just missed it... :|

A wings prototype with proton rockets can flank and apply pressure to an enemy. They either devert their forces to deal with the prot or take it in the side. Green Squadron pilots can super customize with two EPTs and chaaridin refit. Really the only limit is ones imagination with those things. Tycho with daredevil and PTL is amazing. Try cornering that when he can make 225 degree turns.

B wings ruled the Rebel meta before the huge ships. The generics are great workhorses. Especially with advanced sensors to greatly reduce their blockage. The named pilots are great as well. Ten Numb is a classic choice, now Farlander can operate like a mini Fel with his stress conversion, and Nera can 360 flechettes to shut down PTL Interceptors.

Hawks may not pack to much offensive power right now, but they are excellent support ships. Making a ship pilot skill 12 and then chaining it to other ships with swarm tactics will catch many a Phantoms by suprise.

X wing genetics are excellent in their genericnesss. Prior to the huge ship release they often flew in blocks of four or with two B wings. Their extra agility point will also help against accuracy corrector, while Bs and Ys will always take atleast one damage at ranges one and two. And if you want pilot abilities the X wing will not let you down. Wes negates one agility and can punish the fragile, agility depended Imperial ships. Wes with VI is a major threat to Imperial ships. Having their evade or focus stripped Will reduce their ability to survive your attacks or their ability to deal damage if you strip a focus. Tarn Mison can punish those that attack him, or even potentially negate their attack with R7-T1.

The YTs are still awesome against every Empire ship that doesn't have access to AT. So every ship but the Interceptor....

And I'm sorry, but if the introduction of auto thrusters alone invalidates the entire Rebel meta/all their ships then it is time to hit the simulators again and get some practice flying.

A-Wings with proton rockets, especially the low PS ones rarely even get them off, Tycho with the super mobility kit and Prockets costs more than Soontir when he is done, and is still a 2 Attack ship that gets outmaneuvered by PS9. He's okay and super fun to fly but nothing compared to imperial power level...

B-Wings are good, but against interceptors you still rely on all blank greens for him while you take guaranteed damage. they also pay for maneuvrability in red maneuvers as we all know. Farlander is super mobile but not so much with VI, which hee needs against phantoms and Soontir alike. As i said Ten Numb may be the salvation against Super Soontir, that's nice if course! Nera can probably stress them all day long so that's a plus, i agree. I honestly think that IF there is a competitive ship for rebels it is the B-Wing.

HWK in AT meta keep their support role but now they can pull their weight damage wise even less than before. You can't play a 25-30 point ship that is JUST a support. And if an enemy plays AT, it's exactly that!

The X-Wing... Oh boy. It's close to unplayable at the moment. And the generics are really just bad, no saving grace. You can compare them to someone looking for a job without having the necessary special qualification. You can find better ships for any job, working for the same price and bringing better qualification, or working for cheaper and bringing the same qualification. If they had any mobility option that would not seriously limit your build or be overpriced, they could be useful again because they would be flexible, but at the moment: immobile, overpriced, mediocre in any regard!

The talents on some of them are useful, but stuff will get on their 6 very fast in the current meta and then they are helpless like little puppies. That's the reason why they are not seen in competitive play anymore. They get one joust if lucky and if that fails you can concede pretty much. One-trick ponies really!

And if one Upgrade invalidates the best Rebel lists and brings imperial lists to new power levels, while offering no compensation for rebels, well that has nothing to do with lack of training or skill of Rebel players, it's just poor balancing between the factions that ensues!

Your premise falls apart at the start. Autothrusters do not invalidate turret, specifically the large base, focused lists. Simply allowing Intercepters the ability to actually find time on the table does not invalidate those lists.

You'd think Interceptors already were seeing regular success against YT builds as opposed to really struggling to see the table top as a result of that crippling match-up.

Yeah, that is a tad hyperbolic.

Again, guys, if one upgrade invalidates the best Rebel lists it'll only do so for one class of ship (2 for scum)

Then again, if you're not expecting the meta to shift and the "best lists" to evolve with the changing times, then I don't you realize how important it is for a game to remain fresh

Now, on the topic of X-wings, I won't defend them (apart from Stress Wes, I'll never shut up about him) but I have noticed something really interesting as of late.

I have personally found X-wings and Z-95s, and later no-Boba firesprays, to be some probably the most difficult ships in the game for me. When I picked up the Tie Swarm, I half expected to incompetently drive it into the ground, but even when there's 7 of the little gnats clogging up the board those ships can dance.

Genuinely not trying to offend anyone as some of my favorite ships do this (and are my favorite because they can do this), but the game becomes several times easier when you're allowed to manipulate your maneuver (either by changing it before moving, or being able to move before/after it). I've taken some of my longest rounds trying to send my Stress Wes squad after a super Dash, because while Wes would have no problems getting shots (albeit at range 3) I had to account for the rest of the squad's movement not only on that turn, but several turns in advance because they could only count on their dial. Hell, I've found B-wings to be much more flexible.

I won't go as far to say that the lack of boost or roll on X-wings or Zs make them not viable (Zs in particular are very solid), but they are some of the most difficult ships to fly because they simply lack the flexibility to effectively alter their course on a dime especially when trying to maintain a formation.

So, how do you compensate? You just have to listen to Master Yoda's sage advice: "Control! You must learn control!"

I already gush about stress Wes and what he does in the current meta, but as another example we had a recent thread about a 2 gold, 2 blue list taking a store championship. Interestingly enough, the list bore 2 ion turrets and 2 ion cannons. I can venture a guess as to how that player made up for the Y's lack of post maneuver movement

None of this is necessarily Wave 6 specific, I just wanted to share my thoughts on something I found interesting. Might open another train of thought for people trying to explore new lists.

I just wanted to share my thoughts on something I found interesting.

It's something I noticed the other day myself. The X-Wing is one of three ships without the ability to reposition itself after the maneuver or normally has a turret.. The other 2 are the Z-95 and Shuttle.

So out of 6 waves and 22 ships, 3 of them lack both a reposition ability and/or a turret. The Z-95 is so cheap that it doesn't seem to matter much as most use it as filler. The Shuttle has an issue, but it's fairly cheap for a large base and most use Engine Upgrade on it.

I think that's part of the issue with the X-Wing, it's IMO slightly overpriced as is, so it's hard to justify putting a 4 point upgrade on it, just to make it fit what is really the normal ability of most ships.

Oh, it's very easy to justify if you get the right returns out of it

Otherwise, I'd agree. The base X-wing doesn't have much that justifies spending points on improving it. Many ships can match its "decent" dial, or its 2 agility, or its 3 red dice whereas nothing in the rebel fleet can match the Z-95's price and nothing in the imperial fleet can match the cost-efficiency and rear arc of the generic Firespray.

It's part of the reason why the X-wing generics are so bleh but (imo) some of the named pilots are more than salvageable. Nothing in the game has anything analogous to Wes' ability, nor Biggs', nor are there any abilities that synergize as well with the fairly-exclusive astromech upgrade slot (Wes with R3-A2, Tarn Mision with the R7) not even on the other ships that can take it.

I just wanted to share my thoughts on something I found interesting.

It's something I noticed the other day myself. The X-Wing is one of three ships without the ability to reposition itself after the maneuver or normally has a turret.. The other 2 are the Z-95 and Shuttle.

So out of 6 waves and 22 ships, 3 of them lack both a reposition ability and/or a turret. The Z-95 is so cheap that it doesn't seem to matter much as most use it as filler. The Shuttle has an issue, but it's fairly cheap for a large base and most use Engine Upgrade on it.

I think that's part of the issue with the X-Wing, it's IMO slightly overpriced as is, so it's hard to justify putting a 4 point upgrade on it, just to make it fit what is really the normal ability of most ships.

Maybe the problem is re-positioning after the move? Instead of rare it's too common.

Helps, too much, correcting for our not planning or second guessing our opponent well.

Maybe the problem is re-positioning after the move? Instead of rare it's too common.

Helps, too much, correcting for our not planning or second guessing our opponent well.

Imo, yes and no

Re-positioning after the move is also incredibly useful for low PS pilots to set-up for future turns. The Tie swarm in particular thrives on that ability in order to remain maneuverable and sometimes unpredictable. It's a very important part of the game and having ships that cannot preform said actions can be a liability, but they should compensate for it in other ways leading to some much needed variety.

I do sometimes feel that certain ships are not penalized enough for their forgiving nature (most specifically fatties, followed by Whisper) but that's really an opinion (and a half-way irrational hatred of turrets, but only half-way)

The other side of the coin is that maybe we don't respect control (the anti re-position) enough. God knows I only ever started using it with Stress Wes and have never touched an Ion anything before or since.

The X-Wing... Oh boy. It's close to unplayable at the moment.

It really isn't, and the more you post the less I'm able to take you seriously.

And if one Upgrade invalidates the best Rebel lists and brings imperial lists to new power levels, while offering no compensation for rebels, well that has nothing to do with lack of training or skill of Rebel players, it's just poor balancing between the factions that ensues!

You've repeatedly demanded that people suggest things Rebels will be able to do in Wave 6--and then when someone does, you assert they're wrong and consider yourself vindicated. But you haven't yet made a single constructive suggestion of your own.

So let's hear it: let's assume for the purposes of argument that you're right. First, the only Rebel ships that are even remotely worth running are the YT-1300 and YT-2400, and the latter only with the Outrider title; second, both of those ships will be entirely useless in the face of Autothrusters. What will need to happen to restore the Rebels to competitiveness in the post-Autothrusters world?

We'll probably need a 720 degree firing arc

We'll probably need a 720 degree firing arc

You mean like the front end of the Raider?