So many of the OPs bullet points are so flat out wrong it's hard to take it seriously enough to bring out from under the troll bridge. Other then rebels not getting as much out of this set as imperials. It does seem that way but the set isn't out yet so I'd refrain from crying wolf.

I will repeat. If i am right i will be playing Whisper/Fel/Filler a lot in the future competitively. That's all! It would jst be a pity for Rebels but if all the guys here feel that Rebels where dominant enough in the past (which was never the case in any wave) so that now they can just be left with mediocre choices and turrets that Fel can 1v1 most of the time, it will make for a monotonous view on the tournament tables. Would at least depending on Scum top lists...

So many of the OPs bullet points are so flat out wrong it's hard to take it seriously enough to bring out from under the troll bridge. Other then rebels not getting as much out of this set as imperials. It does seem that way but the set isn't out yet so I'd refrain from crying wolf.

Accusing me of trolling and whining here while bringing zero contribution is quite offensive. I am very serious here and try to prove a point. If already you say i am wrong, at least try and bring an argument where and what is wrong.

I will repeat. If i am right i will be playing Whisper/Fel/Filler a lot in the future competitively. That's all! It would jst be a pity for Rebels but if all the guys here feel that Rebels where dominant enough in the past (which was never the case in any wave) so that now they can just be left with mediocre choices and turrets that Fel can 1v1 most of the time, it will make for a monotonous view on the tournament tables. Would at least depending on Scum top lists...

I'm not sure I agree with your points (I've no idea, I don't play competitively), but I do agree that calling somebody a troll and refusing to take on their argument is a sign of pretty low interneting/personing skills.

Regarding the turrets disappearing from the meta: will Autoceptors/Starthrusters beat Phantoms? If not, then presumably we'll still see Phantoms, and if we do, won't we still see Fat Hans, etc?

Also, somebody was saying how AutothrusterWings might be good at outmanoeuvring Phantoms but wouldn't be able to hurt them. I disagree - 2 red vs 2 green favours the attacker.

Well who says that you can't combine Phantom and Thrusterceptors. The infamous 999 with Phennir, Whisper, Fel comes to mind. The Thrusterceptors handle turret ships and they are very effective against any small ships too, while the Phantom tries and handles the rest.

Autowings with Outmaneuver would still go 2 red dice vs 3 green dice against cloaked phantoms even if they outmaneuvered them. unless they also have PS advantage over the Phantom. And that's just possible for Tycho+VI.

The Autowings problem against other high PS hypermobile ships is that even with 2 Elite slots you either get the mobility, the fitepower or the pilot skill to fight them, but never the 3 together.

Well who says that you can't combine Phantom and Thrusterceptors. The infamous 999 with Phennir, Whisper, Fel comes to mind. The Thrusterceptors handle turret ships and they are very effective against any small ships too, while the Phantom tries and handles the rest.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to trying something very much like that myself. Certainly Fell and Whisper, was thinking maybe something different for the third 9, but dunno.

The Autowings problem against other high PS hypermobile ships is that even with 2 Elite slots you either get the mobility, the fitepower or the pilot skill to fight them, but never the 3 together.

Yeah, that is indeed the problem. A few more high PS pilots would be handy, or ones with skills that up their firepower, freeing up an EPT.

I dunno though, isn't VI + Outmanoeuvre (or Predator/Lone Wolf) pretty decent? 2 red vs 1 green isn't bad, although it'll take some time.

I remember when stay on target was teased

Lots of op threads about that.

Since wave 5 hit has anyone used it?

I haven't but been wanting to

I've seen it mostly on Keyan Farlander.

Makes sense. It's only really worth it when you've got (a) the ability to deal with stress tokens and (b) a wide choice of manouvres at a single speed.

Keyan with SoT is a good build and quite potent that has a good time against anything below PS7. But if you add anything more to him like Advanced sensors or EU he gets a really expensive ship with 1 defense die. Against all the red attack dice he can get focused down really fast. That makes him a nice choice with a good solid pilot skill. But he won't win a shootout with phantoms or interceptors i am afraid.

snip

Not sure if this is a matter of personal experience or not, but I have enjoyed far more success with Jakes, Keyan, Tarn, and Wes to have such a bleak outlook.

For Jakes, its prot rockets. He was basically made for them, and they'll either bust a phantom or leave it weak enough for a stray shot to finish.

For Keyan, I don't know but I always found his maneuverability to be unprecedented and enough to catch the phantom since they basically move the same (only he uses the 1 straight) apart from the forward de-cloak. Having a free "focus" off his ability also really helps with his accuracy, letting him get damage through high agility targets more easily.

For the named Xs, it's about flying slowly and keeping at range to utilize a wider arc. Tarn takes R7 and just completely screws with the firepower a 2 ship list will throw at him by essentially negating half of it (Gunner pending). Wes with VI, R3-A2, and Engine (not for arc dodging, though it can, but more for banking to land your arc on the phantom after it moves) is your dedicated anti-phantom/PTL with the added benefit of knocking target-locks off of turrets, which surprisingly cuts into their damage potential (provided its not Han).

One of the better players in the local meta showed up to Wave 5 events with 2 prototypes, 2 blues, and tarn + r7. He took first place with the list very handily, crushing the finals against an echo + chiraneau.

But then his falcon from the restock arrived in the mail and he hasn't played anything else since (also hasn't taken first since )

I think its abit early to speculate really. AT will hurt turrets, turrets will still hurt whispers. Just because interceptors got a little bit more survivable doesn't mean they're going to win worlds now. Its still 3 hull points, and an all blank roll equals 1 evade now. So you don't get one shotted. They still are gonna die to they're dice, which has always been their downfall. Also AT can go onto things like x wings, or b wings. Hlc blues with advanced sensors and AT, with cheap a wings flanking could be a list. Still too early to speculate about it

I think its abit early to speculate really. AT will hurt turrets, turrets will still hurt whispers. Just because interceptors got a little bit more survivable doesn't mean they're going to win worlds now. Its still 3 hull points, and an all blank roll equals 1 evade now. So you don't get one shotted. They still are gonna die to they're dice, which has always been their downfall. Also AT can go onto things like x wings, or b wings. Hlc blues with advanced sensors and AT, with cheap a wings flanking could be a list. Still too early to speculate about it

AT is limited to ships with innate boost only (A-wing, interceptor, aggressor, starviper)

I do think you're right in that they won't make interceptors invincible, just actually playable. I'm just hoping that players will take this ability to make maneuvers actually matter against turrets and bury them into the ground

I don't have extensive experience with turrets, but if you'll allow some idle speculation, I wonder Autothrusters shouldn't be looked on as a turret counter, but a turret reducer. Maybe players start building mid-priced turret ships to give some protection against Phantoms, but don't rely on them to do all the heavy lifting. I think we see evidence of FFG giving Scum and option like that with Kavil. He's got a great turret, but range and durability is far more limited than the big Rebel turrets.

Random example that might be crap:

Dash 36, VI 1, HLC 7, Recon Specialist 3 = 47

-This Dash provides decent protection from Phantoms Whisper either sees his maneuvers and gets shot with the turret before decloaking or maneuvers blind and possibly gets caught in the HLC sights. Depending on Initiative, you can also catch PS9 interceptors in a pretty brutal front arc. It also leaves you with 53 points to take some real ships instead of just filler.

Blue Squadron 21, FCS 2, E2 1, Tactician 2- 26

Blue Squadron 21, FCS 2, E2 1, Tactician 2- 26

-This gives you two more tough, hard-hitting ships that can put out legitimate damage, cover a variety of arcs, and threaten stress-vulnerable ships (Ion Cannons instead of E2/Tactician are an option). It's 3 solid ships, a turret that's good against chaff and Phantoms, and a bunch of firepower. Any one of these ships can end up crippling a phantom/interceptor, or at least deny a sizable area of the board, and none are going down fast. Against fat turrets, you'll stress them to no actions and pour on substantial damage.

I think its abit early to speculate really. AT will hurt turrets, turrets will still hurt whispers. Just because interceptors got a little bit more survivable doesn't mean they're going to win worlds now. Its still 3 hull points, and an all blank roll equals 1 evade now. So you don't get one shotted. They still are gonna die to they're dice, which has always been their downfall. Also AT can go onto things like x wings, or b wings. Hlc blues with advanced sensors and AT, with cheap a wings flanking could be a list. Still too early to speculate about it

This, this, a thousand times this!

Only 4 ships are going to be able to take Auto-Thrusters and while we can't yet speculate on how the Scum ships fly I have proxied AT a number of times. It really does help against turrets, it works exactly as advertised. However, my Phantom still got wrecked by a Decimator. Turrets are still going to be incredibly useful against 80% of the ships in the game. I also don't think there is going to be a run on Interceptors either. I love Interceptors but they are can be difficult to fly. Squints are incredibly unforgiving and despite the three evade dice they only have 3 hull and no shields, they can fall over in a stiff breeze if your not careful. Rebel ships on the other hand still hate turrets, so do big base ships. Fat Han/Dash/Chir might lose to an AT Interceptor list every once in a while but they will still do well against most everything else out there right now.

The other thing I would touch on quickly is that the rebel's have some great ships, the B-Wing and A-Wing are fantastic, but lately they don't see much play. This is mainly because Fat Han/Dash are easy to fly and are much more forgiving. I'm not saying that people who play them are bad at x-wing or anything like that, it is just really easy to smack around small base ships with these guys. One card is not going to bring them down every time (trust me I have proxied the hell out of AT) rather it is going to even the playing field a bit and also make a ship that doesn't see much play anymore come out of mothballs.

I think its abit early to speculate really. AT will hurt turrets, turrets will still hurt whispers. Just because interceptors got a little bit more survivable doesn't mean they're going to win worlds now. Its still 3 hull points, and an all blank roll equals 1 evade now. So you don't get one shotted. They still are gonna die to they're dice, which has always been their downfall. Also AT can go onto things like x wings, or b wings. Hlc blues with advanced sensors and AT, with cheap a wings flanking could be a list. Still too early to speculate about it

AT is limited to ships with innate boost only (A-wing, interceptor, aggressor, starviper)

I do think you're right in that they won't make interceptors invincible, just actually playable. I'm just hoping that players will take this ability to make maneuvers actually matter against turrets and bury them into the ground

sorry, my bad then. Its been awhile since I've read the card. Still, its a semi 3p0 effect on low hp ships, or the aggresor, which has its own weaknesses. It'll level the field more, but not alot. It will mean turrets might have motivation to not do donuts in the middle of the board though.

My predictions for Rebels:

- Their turret ships will have to focus on the elements of the enemy fleet which do not have autothruster first.

- They will have to include elements in their squads to offer cover for their turret ships (and those elements will probably not be turret themselves). I can imagine a Y-Wing flying with BTL-A4 and ion cannon (23 points) or something with an autoblaster turrets (which won't care about the autothruster, focus or evade tokens).

- More creative / aggressive flying will be required for turret ships (k-turn, etc).

- Fully defensive turret ship builds will probably shift back to ships with a gunner.

- Since all of the above mean that large base ships will have a multiple of options to specialize in (defense, gunner, PS race, etc), the variety of builds will increase, making more squads viable in the meta.

Overall, I expect that the meta will shake for a bit as people adapt, but after a few months, there will (hopefully) no longer be a clear cut about what is best to bring to a tournament. That's a win in my book.

Again i have nothing against interceptors, but i never felt that it was a bad ship. Pre C3PO i beat Falcon lists quite often with all Interceptors lists. And Soontir is an absolute beast. Well at least you can sometimes block him (with one ship unlike Phantoms) and that means he is very vulnerable. But if not he is unbelievably difficult to hit. And he should be, he is one of the best pilots in the galaxy.

But the combination of him and Whisper is something Rebels will have a real struggle against. They have no counter for that combination. For a reasonable cost too. Soontir, AT, PTL, Stealth is 35 points. For that cost you can build a really good Tycho, Jake or Farlander make no mistake. But they all have one flaw while i can't see one on the Baron. Hell i have tried rebel ace lists and even against non-turret lists they don't feel as insanely powerful as the imperial counterpart.

Imps have the better small ships and that's a serious feeling i always had. I can tell you that i have a lot more fun playing non-turret lists as well against each other. But to be top competitive i feel Rebels need turrets at the moment. It is not just that players field turrets because its easier and more forgiving, they are just the best Rebeks have to offer (sadly) and by giving small ships a counter to it will give Rebels a hard time.

I will probably jump on the scum train and try double IG as well as Kavil/Palob lists a lot. I will have fun, but i still predict that we will not see Rebels win a lot after wave 6 hits. You will see!

Just to give an example of what we might see on the table very soon. After the Raider comes, drop Stealth on Sointir and take Vader/ATC. What would you do as a Rebel player if you had to face this?

AT-999 (100)

"Whisper" — TIE Phantom 32

Veteran Instincts 1

Advanced Cloaking Device 4

Soontir Fel — TIE Interceptor 27

Push the Limit 3

Autothrusters 2

Stealth Device 3

Royal Guard TIE 0

Turr Phennir — TIE Interceptor 25

Veteran Instincts 1

Autothrusters 2

Play Han. And use b wings. (this sounds like something familiar!!) seriously, all the doom and gloom isn't warrented. That list still suffer from chronic green diceitis. Just block one and focus it down. Swarms might even see a resurgence if that style of list grows popular

I remember when stay on target was teased

Lots of op threads about that.

Since wave 5 hit has anyone used it?

I haven't but been wanting to

I've seen it mostly on Keyan Farlander.

Makes sense. It's only really worth it when you've got (a) the ability to deal with stress tokens and (b) a wide choice of manouvres at a single speed.

And on ships that are likely to be doing a red manoeuvre anyway. I haven't played it myself yet, but I'd have thought being able to pick which 1 turn to do would be brilliant in any high PS B-Wing. All depends on the opportunity cost.

For that reason it could be good on any ship with Mr Loop manoeuvres as well.

Play Han.

I know myself I'd like to see an answer that doesn't include this. I don't mind Han, I love the Falcon as an iconic ship. I like the way it plays. I like the options and power of the Han/Corran list. I played it last night at league and crushed a Boba/Shuttle list. I'll most likely take it to the Store Champ that's coming up because it's a good list, and that's going to be a fairly high level competition.

But the game would be much better off, if there were more options and more viable lists, and right now the meta is condensing down to only a very few of those. S&V isn't going to do a lot to increase the number of viable lists on the Rebel side.

Play Han.

I know myself I'd like to see an answer that doesn't include this. I don't mind Han, I love the Falcon as an iconic ship. I like the way it plays. I like the options and power of the Han/Corran list. I played it last night at league and crushed a Boba/Shuttle list. I'll most likely take it to the Store Champ that's coming up because it's a good list, and that's going to be a fairly high level competition.But the game would be much better off, if there were more options and more viable lists, and right now the meta is condensing down to only a very few of those. S&V isn't going to do a lot to increase the number of viable lists on the Rebel side.

Because that's probably where it all begun. Amongst all the players that just played the Falcon for pure fluff reasons a lot of people started playing it because it was one of the best choices out there.

I remember a Gencon final i believe from last year where double Falcons played against an imperial list with shuttle. I also remember that this was the first big final where large ships where even involved. So that Turret and large ship dominance has not always been there like some here are suggesting.

Edit:

That was 06.11.14. So much for the myth that Turret ships were always too powerful!

So no, the turret mechanic is not broken and never was. But C3PO and above all the appearance of the Phantom made turrets so frequent. That's why i can't understand why "Imperial-only" players accuse "Rebel-only" players of abusing turrets. Because if they had a better option against Phantoms they would probably take it!

So no, the turret mechanic is not broken and never was.

No they weren't. They always made Interceptors hard to fly, but they've never been broken. The problem isn't turrets, it's turrets + lots of HP's + good defenses + hypermobile ships + action economy.

Turrets arnt the only answer to phantoms just the laziest, why use good piloting to get a ship in arc when you can fly without concern and still get a shot in.

Turrets arnt the only answer to phantoms just the laziest, why use good piloting to get a ship in arc when you can fly without concern and still get a shot in.

How do you suggest doing that in say, an X-Wing? Or a Y-Wing? Or a B-Wing? Even an A-Wing will have trouble given the lack of barrel roll.

Most options that will get brought up will be significantly overcosted just to get to the required pilot skill and have the right maneuvers to do it.

Turrets arnt the only answer to phantoms just the laziest, why use good piloting to get a ship in arc when you can fly without concern and still get a shot in.

There is no reliable counter against Phantoms. If you go to a tournament you want something that 100% shuts it down because if you don't have that you will lose against it. Every turn it lives it can inflict massive danage. It needs to die, fast! This has nothing to do with laziness.

If there was any ship that only nearly did what Phantoms do for around 40 points on rebel side, people would not need turrets.

You don't get the same package of maneuvrability, survivability and firepower on any other ship and not even close to this for the same point cost, period!

The problem with the rebel turrets at least, mainly the falcon, is just how MANY evade options it has. You've got the title, 3po, Jan, and Lando. Plus R2-D2 as a sort of "evade" option as well.

A ship with 1 agility should not be getting 2, 3, or even 4 (with a lucky lando roll) guaranteed evades a turn! That's why they have so many hit points to counter their low agility.

Well i don't know how you want to combine all of this to get that many evades!