Used AT for the first time tonight on three named interceptors against:

The X-Wing... Oh boy. It's close to unplayable at the moment.

It really isn't, and the more you post the less I'm able to take you seriously.

And if one Upgrade invalidates the best Rebel lists and brings imperial lists to new power levels, while offering no compensation for rebels, well that has nothing to do with lack of training or skill of Rebel players, it's just poor balancing between the factions that ensues!

You've repeatedly demanded that people suggest things Rebels will be able to do in Wave 6--and then when someone does, you assert they're wrong and consider yourself vindicated. But you haven't yet made a single constructive suggestion of your own.So let's hear it: let's assume for the purposes of argument that you're right. First, the only Rebel ships that are even remotely worth running are the YT-1300 and YT-2400, and the latter only with the Outrider title; second, both of those ships will be entirely useless in the face of Autothrusters. What will need to happen to restore the Rebels to competitiveness in the post-Autothrusters world?

Yes i think that you're wrong (just as you think i am), or we would not have this discussion. And i did not see a lot of good suggestions here. We both can't prove each other wrong now, but i assure you that i am pretty confident that the future meta will prove me right.

There would need to be a few things changed, some of which are related to Rebels, some to Empire, some to the game in general.

1) Fix ordnance please. Rebels and empire have ordnance ships that are not attractive but would offer more competitive diversity if ordnance was actually worth it. I also contributed some ideas to how this could work in various threads, so feel free to look there!

2) The X-Wing needs a movement option with a 2 point bonus tied to it. I proposed S-Foils (go take a look if you want to) as a solution some time ago, but no matter how you achieve it, it needs to be done. The ship is the only small ship with the Z-95 that has neither turret nor movement action. That's a death sentence in this meta, and in the forseeable future.

3) HWK and Y-Wing are still turret ships and they get AT thrown in their faces despite not being very poweful with their turrets. And please, BTL-A4 is a nice option, as is bomb loadout, but it does not increase the Y-Wings power level in any way! The Y-Wing needs new Rebel pilots, and i really don't care how FFG would achieve it, but Horton and Dutch just need a native EPT. Themnot having it hampered them since the beginning andstill continues to do so! It's also fundamentally unjust, i always asked myself if FFG did not just have a mishap when giving the cards to print back then, if that was even intended like it came out.

4) The Phantom needs another hard counter besides VI. Generic ships should still be at a disadvantage against them, but the midrange to top range pilots would need a way of consistently fighting Phantoms. They make up some of the rebels most interesting pilots, but they just get eaten alive by phantoms, that's why nobody uses them! The same thing goes for midrange Imperial pilots actually!

5) Rebels need their own hypermobile, high agility, hard hitting ship. At a decent price this time! Well, or just fix the E-Wing Generics and give the ship some more named pilots, but this time price them more aggressively. The Phantom is insanely cheap for all it does, but in the same wave they hesitated to make E-Wing and Defender too cheap... That's something i did not understand, and i think it was a mistake FFG should adress asap!

I could probably find some more stuff but that's enough for now!

Is it possible that ordnance is just fine. Before you start yelling at me... maybe ordnance is best used for Epic/Huge ships and may never fare well in a dogfighting game such as X-Wing. Buff the ordnance just a bit and bang you have something way over powered.

As for the X-Wing, I think we've talked before and I thought they were fine. X-Wings still see a lot of action; just not so much for a few generics. If the Rebels get their own hypermobile, high agility ships what's the point of a TIE? If the Rebels get that the TIE will be the next thing needed a buff. This will never end.

I may sound like I don't know what I'm talking about (and I most likely don't since I don't have nearly the experience most of you have) but in my own little world I actually thought that after the Raider fixed the Advanced most things between the Imperial and Rebel forces would be balanced.

Finally, woohoo... No don't mean everything balanced but most things. Some things are for support, some for Epic, some synergistic... Fix the bomber, cool if you're an Imperial play but does it really need a fix? Maybe it's a bomber and not a dog fighter and will never be a dog fighter and will always be out classed by and fighter of equal points. But those very same points in an Epic game with a Tantive IV and it's fighter screen occupied. Then right tool for the right job and the points are well spend.

If everything is balanced then you'll either have uncontrolled power creep eventually or begin to lose variety.

Just my two cents but...

If you give me a penny for my thoughts and I give my two cents then who gets the change?

If you give me a penny for my thoughts and I give my two cents then who gets the change?

It's a change of mind ;-)

Yes i think that you're wrong (just as you think i am), or we would not have this discussion. And i did not see a lot of good suggestions here. We both can't prove each other wrong now, but i assure you that i am pretty confident that the future meta will prove me right.

There would need to be a few things changed, some of which are related to Rebels, some to Empire, some to the game in general.

1) Fix ordnance please. Rebels and empire have ordnance ships that are not attractive but would offer more competitive diversity if ordnance was actually worth it. I also contributed some ideas to how this could work in various threads, so feel free to look there!

2) The X-Wing needs a movement option with a 2 point bonus tied to it. I proposed S-Foils (go take a look if you want to) as a solution some time ago, but no matter how you achieve it, it needs to be done. The ship is the only small ship with the Z-95 that has neither turret nor movement action. That's a death sentence in this meta, and in the forseeable future.

3) HWK and Y-Wing are still turret ships and they get AT thrown in their faces despite not being very poweful with their turrets. And please, BTL-A4 is a nice option, as is bomb loadout, but it does not increase the Y-Wings power level in any way! The Y-Wing needs new Rebel pilots, and i really don't care how FFG would achieve it, but Horton and Dutch just need a native EPT. Themnot having it hampered them since the beginning andstill continues to do so! It's also fundamentally unjust, i always asked myself if FFG did not just have a mishap when giving the cards to print back then, if that was even intended like it came out.

4) The Phantom needs another hard counter besides VI. Generic ships should still be at a disadvantage against them, but the midrange to top range pilots would need a way of consistently fighting Phantoms. They make up some of the rebels most interesting pilots, but they just get eaten alive by phantoms, that's why nobody uses them! The same thing goes for midrange Imperial pilots actually!

5) Rebels need their own hypermobile, high agility, hard hitting ship. At a decent price this time! Well, or just fix the E-Wing Generics and give the ship some more named pilots, but this time price them more aggressively. The Phantom is insanely cheap for all it does, but in the same wave they hesitated to make E-Wing and Defender too cheap... That's something i did not understand, and i think it was a mistake FFG should adress asap!

I could probably find some more stuff but that's enough for now!

1. Better ordnance has come out. Bombers do have a bit of a following, and respectable results. Sure, the Proxy mines are not the ordnance you are talking about, but they have done well. I don't think the Y-wing version of that squad will do quite as well. This is just something you need patience on.

2. So specific. Why has the Phantom made this more important than Wave 2? You will pardon me if I think that all ships getting boost or barrel roll is not exactly a good sign for the game.

3. You do know that while good, Autothrusters does not make an Interceptor invincible against turrets, right? And the HWK was never going to be a powerhouse ship. As much as I like some of the gunboat possibilities of the HWK post Rebel Aces, I fully acknowledge that it was just a fun idea, rather a competitive one. Ironically, the BTL title plays into the weaknesses of Autothrusters. Learn to dog fight with your turrets.

4. Restricted list. At this point I want it just to shut people up, and to prevent overkilling things. Is Echo and Whisper with ACD still a threat at PS 6 and 7, yes. But, it will stop a lot of this race to the top and allow other pilots a shot even without Veteran Instincts. Also, Stay on Target is also a good option.

5. At this point, it is clear this is just stuff you don't like, which doesn't make it a fact for the whole game. Some things will play differently than how you like or how you want.

Yes i think that you're wrong (just as you think i am), or we would not have this discussion. And i did not see a lot of good suggestions here. We both can't prove each other wrong now, but i assure you that i am pretty confident that the future meta will prove me right.

There would need to be a few things changed, some of which are related to Rebels, some to Empire, some to the game in general.

1) Fix ordnance please. Rebels and empire have ordnance ships that are not attractive but would offer more competitive diversity if ordnance was actually worth it. I also contributed some ideas to how this could work in various threads, so feel free to look there!

2) The X-Wing needs a movement option with a 2 point bonus tied to it. I proposed S-Foils (go take a look if you want to) as a solution some time ago, but no matter how you achieve it, it needs to be done. The ship is the only small ship with the Z-95 that has neither turret nor movement action. That's a death sentence in this meta, and in the forseeable future.

3) HWK and Y-Wing are still turret ships and they get AT thrown in their faces despite not being very poweful with their turrets. And please, BTL-A4 is a nice option, as is bomb loadout, but it does not increase the Y-Wings power level in any way! The Y-Wing needs new Rebel pilots, and i really don't care how FFG would achieve it, but Horton and Dutch just need a native EPT. Themnot having it hampered them since the beginning andstill continues to do so! It's also fundamentally unjust, i always asked myself if FFG did not just have a mishap when giving the cards to print back then, if that was even intended like it came out.

4) The Phantom needs another hard counter besides VI. Generic ships should still be at a disadvantage against them, but the midrange to top range pilots would need a way of consistently fighting Phantoms. They make up some of the rebels most interesting pilots, but they just get eaten alive by phantoms, that's why nobody uses them! The same thing goes for midrange Imperial pilots actually!

5) Rebels need their own hypermobile, high agility, hard hitting ship. At a decent price this time! Well, or just fix the E-Wing Generics and give the ship some more named pilots, but this time price them more aggressively. The Phantom is insanely cheap for all it does, but in the same wave they hesitated to make E-Wing and Defender too cheap... That's something i did not understand, and i think it was a mistake FFG should adress asap!

I could probably find some more stuff but that's enough for now!

1. Better ordnance has come out. Bombers do have a bit of a following, and respectable results. Sure, the Proxy mines are not the ordnance you are talking about, but they have done well. I don't think the Y-wing version of that squad will do quite as well. This is just something you need patience on.

2. So specific. Why has the Phantom made this more important than Wave 2? You will pardon me if I think that all ships getting boost or barrel roll is not exactly a good sign for the game.

3. You do know that while good, Autothrusters does not make an Interceptor invincible against turrets, right? And the HWK was never going to be a powerhouse ship. As much as I like some of the gunboat possibilities of the HWK post Rebel Aces, I fully acknowledge that it was just a fun idea, rather a competitive one. Ironically, the BTL title plays into the weaknesses of Autothrusters. Learn to dog fight with your turrets.

4. Restricted list. At this point I want it just to shut people up, and to prevent overkilling things. Is Echo and Whisper with ACD still a threat at PS 6 and 7, yes. But, it will stop a lot of this race to the top and allow other pilots a shot even without Veteran Instincts. Also, Stay on Target is also a good option.

5. At this point, it is clear this is just stuff you don't like, which doesn't make it a fact for the whole game. Some things will play differently than how you like or how you want.

Ordnance is fine? There is a really wide consensus that it's not. It costs too much and then is either too expensive to be one shot or does no or unreliable damage. Except in Epic, nobody plays it. You can check this up in list juggler or similar programs if you don't believe me.

The other points are quite controverse. I don't understand your Wave/ Phantom sentence, but what i can tell you is that the phantom is (and that's also widely acknowledged) insanely powerful for its cost, some say ot's "overpowered". The fact that every tournament list needs a valud phantom counter to be successful just soeaks for itself. And it is also an undeniable fact that the phantom supresses low to midrange PS skill like no other ship. That's not healthy for the game. A huge portion of otherwise good pilots are unplayable in conpetition because they just get massacred by Phantoms with literally nothing they can do to help this. This is not a feeling or impression i get, that's just how it currently is!

BTL would be good, if there was any Y-Wing that could use it effectively and not get arc dodged like there's no tomorrow.

What needs to be restricted? I don't get that part either! VI? Yes why not, that would help at least PS 6 or 7 pilots a lot against Phantoms if you meant that.

To 5. Yes i don't like some stuff obviously, and that's why i write this up. FFG has fixed numerous things already and they won't stop there, cheers!

Yes i think that you're wrong (just as you think i am), or we would not have this discussion.

It's not that I think you're wrong, or vice versa; I don't mind disagreeing with people. What I object to is, for instance, your claims that X-wings are unplayable. Saying something over and over again doesn't make it true, even if you really believe it; the most charitable interpretation is that it's just so obvious to you that it can't require an explanation, but I assure you that outside the confines of your head, completely dismissing Biggs, Wedge, and Wes requires more than an unsupported assertion.

And i did not see a lot of good suggestions here. We both can't prove each other wrong now, but i assure you that i am pretty confident that the future meta will prove me right.

Well, that changes things! I didn't know you were confident, and no one who has ever been confident turned out to be wrong.

1) Fix ordnance please. Rebels and empire have ordnance ships that are not attractive but would offer more competitive diversity if ordnance was actually worth it. I also contributed some ideas to how this could work in various threads, so feel free to look there!

The Empire has a particular ship that will benefit more than any other ship from a fix to ordnance, just like it had a particular ship that would benefit from Autothrusters. Accordingly, this doesn't help Rebels as much as it helps the Empire.

2) The X-Wing needs a movement option with a 2 point bonus tied to it. I proposed S-Foils (go take a look if you want to) as a solution some time ago, but no matter how you achieve it, it needs to be done. The ship is the only small ship with the Z-95 that has neither turret nor movement action. That's a death sentence in this meta, and in the forseeable future.

It would be great to have more movement options with the X-wing, and I'd completely support a patch that allowed them (with some restrictions). But I'm not sure I can endorse the general principle you seem to be indicating here, which is that a ship without the ability to barrel roll or boost is so severely handicapped that it's not worth playing.

3) HWK and Y-Wing are still turret ships and they get AT thrown in their faces despite not being very poweful with their turrets.

Fun facts: with a focus token and Autothrusters, Soontir Fel's defensive average against a turret is2.63, and the mode is 3. With just Autothusters, Fel's average falls to 1.88, and the mode drops to 2.

Accordingly, an Ion Cannon Turret with a focus token or target lock has just a 16% chance to hit Fel + Autothrusters if the TIE interceptor is out of arc and has a focus token. If the ICT can catch Fel without a defensive token, though, that chance jumps to 47%.

I wouldn't choose to fight Fel with a pair of Gold Squadron Y-wings armed with just Ion Cannon Turrets. If I had to, though, that 47% chance means it's far from the automatic loss you're proposing. Y-wings are far from dead.

And please, BTL-A4 is a nice option, as is bomb loadout, but it does not increase the Y-Wings power level in any way!

The Y-wing doesn't have a power problem; it has a boring problem. It's a durable, reliable workhorse with a control and area-denial effect that's might actually be a bit too powerful for its cost. But until Most Wanted hits, there are basically two competitive builds: Gold Squadron + Ion Cannon Turret and Dutch + ICT. Most Wanted breaks that with the BTL-A4 title and Bomb Loadout.

The Y-Wing needs new Rebel pilots, and i really don't care how FFG would achieve it, but Horton and Dutch just need a native EPT. Themnot having it hampered them since the beginning andstill continues to do so!

How, exactly? If you're the kind of player who's ready to throw your Y-wings into the trash along with your X-wings, A-wings, B-wings, and Z-95s (because there's not a single competitive build incorporating any of them, according to you), what would an EPT slot do for Horton and Dutch?

...i always asked myself if FFG did not just have a mishap when giving the cards to print back then, if that was even intended like it came out.

My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

4) The Phantom needs another hard counter besides VI. Generic ships should still be at a disadvantage against them, but the midrange to top range pilots would need a way of consistently fighting Phantoms. They make up some of the rebels most interesting pilots, but they just get eaten alive by phantoms, that's why nobody uses them! The same thing goes for midrange Imperial pilots actually!

They already have a way of consistently fighting Phantoms: shooting at them. It takes patience and, preferably, a Phantom pilot who's inexperienced or overconfident, but if you can get an arc on the Phantom with even a couple of Rookies, it's going to take some damage. Hobbie can use R3-A2 or Push the Limit to seriously harass a Phantom all by himself. Biggs is a nasty puzzle piece to throw at Phantoms even with no upgrades at all, because flown well he forces bad shots and/or prevents you from focusing fire effectively. Dutch gives someone a break on the action economy. Keyan threatens to shoot Phantoms right through their cloak, and Nera can hit you with stress regardless of how you maneuver. Roark ensures that whoever has an arc on the Phantom that round gets to ignore its cloak.

If you can't find reasons to run mid-PS Rebels, it's because you're not thinking.

5) Rebels need their own hypermobile, high agility, hard hitting ship. At a decent price this time! Well, or just fix the E-Wing Generics and give the ship some more named pilots, but this time price them more aggressively. The Phantom is insanely cheap for all it does, but in the same wave they hesitated to make E-Wing and Defender too cheap... That's something i did not understand, and i think it was a mistake FFG should adress asap!

I could probably find some more stuff but that's enough for now!

Indeed, more than enough. One of your solutions to making Rebels competitive--the thing you think should have come out in an all-Scum wave in order to counter the effect of Autothrusters--is a Rebel ship that completely abandons the Rebel faction identity.

Or they could just "fix the E-wing generics". I'm not sure what that fix would look like, but do you have any suggestions?

Maybe the problem is re-positioning after the move? Instead of rare it's too common.

Imo, yes and no

My thinking was this... The X-Wing suffers from a similar problem as the A-Wing, it has trouble competing with the new normal.

One of the issues with 2 attack is it just doesn't match up with what most other ships have both in attack and defense. It's fine for a Tie Fighter because they're so cheap, with the refit I think we're seeing more A-Wings because the cost point is low enough to make 2 attack viable. Or at least better than it was.

The X-Wing lacking a barrel roll, boost or turret isn't a weakness in of itself, expect when you compare it to everything else that does. It wouldn't be so bad if FFG were to stop cranking out more and more ships with either a reposition mechanic or a turret, with the majority of ships having some sort of reposition mechanic vs a turret.

If the Boost/Barrel Roll was limited to say Tie Fighters, Interceptors Phantoms, and A-Wings then I think the X-Wing wouldn't seem quite so bad. But when nearly every ship in the game has one, it makes the X-Wing worse by comparison.

Consider the X vs B. B has more HP's but lower Agility, same attack, and a dial that's most likely on par with the X, although maybe a bit worse. MajorJuggler ran the numbers and the B-Wing survives on avg 1 more attack than the X-Wing. I think that perhaps if the B-Wing didn't have the barrel roll action it may not of been seen as being better than the X-Wing over all.

Maybe the problem is re-positioning after the move? Instead of rare it's too common.

Imo, yes and no

My thinking was this... The X-Wing suffers from a similar problem as the A-Wing, it has trouble competing with the new normal.

One of the issues with 2 attack is it just doesn't match up with what most other ships have both in attack and defense. It's fine for a Tie Fighter because they're so cheap, with the refit I think we're seeing more A-Wings because the cost point is low enough to make 2 attack viable. Or at least better than it was.

The X-Wing lacking a barrel roll, boost or turret isn't a weakness in of itself, expect when you compare it to everything else that does. It wouldn't be so bad if FFG were to stop cranking out more and more ships with either a reposition mechanic or a turret, with the majority of ships having some sort of reposition mechanic vs a turret.

If the Boost/Barrel Roll was limited to say Tie Fighters, Interceptors Phantoms, and A-Wings then I think the X-Wing wouldn't seem quite so bad. But when nearly every ship in the game has one, it makes the X-Wing worse by comparison.

Consider the X vs B. B has more HP's but lower Agility, same attack, and a dial that's most likely on par with the X, although maybe a bit worse. MajorJuggler ran the numbers and the B-Wing survives on avg 1 more attack than the X-Wing. I think that perhaps if the B-Wing didn't have the barrel roll action it may not of been seen as being better than the X-Wing over all.

Too bad that isn't the fix then... Take away the B-Wings extra mobility or at the very least Advanced Sensors. The B-Wing might be the X-Wing's problem.

Why aren't we calling this stuff power creep. It is because we love the game so much we're in denial? Buff the X-Wing; buff ordnance and bombers (I don't think they need buffing); and so on and so on. Seriously... to play a TIE Interceptor today you need to buy a Star Viper.

Why aren't we calling this stuff power creep.

Myself and I think many of us consider power creep to be the intentional increase in power to both make the new unit a must have and the old unit obsolete.

You mention the Star Viper, and that is clearly not a case of Power Creep IMO, because if if we accept that you must have AT's to play interceptors... Star Vipers aren't a replacement for TIE interceptors, it's just the package they're releasing a new upgrade that Interceptors will find useful in.

Too bad that isn't the fix then... Take away the B-Wings extra mobility or at the very least Advanced Sensors. The B-Wing might be the X-Wing's problem.

Why aren't we calling this stuff power creep. It is because we love the game so much we're in denial? Buff the X-Wing; buff ordnance and bombers (I don't think they need buffing); and so on and so on. Seriously... to play a TIE Interceptor today you need to buy a Star Viper.

Because it's not really power creep.

Power creeps implies a steady string of releases that become steadily and simply more competitive than each release before it. At best, we got a power spike with the Phantom.

Considering the humble Tie Fighter is still kicking ass and taking names while the Interceptor is not (yet), it's more that the X-wing's abilities simply did not age well with all the new ships buzzing around.

Well, I should say most X-wings...

It's a power creep not massive but the game is slowly getting more powerful where older shios constantly get upgrades to stay relevant. The tie swarm was completely dominating the meta the first year. And although Paul won the world championship with bbxx using wave 3 a year and half later the top 10 results were loaded w searms still. This past year it was all about wave 4 phantoms took over, z95s took over a simple pair of Crew cards from an epic ship made the falcon into a beast that made the lowly han shoots first list into a dominating varient in the meta. As much as I despise what fat turrets have done to the meta the falcon isn't a really a power creep. The phantom was a power creep however I believe this was intentional to force a shift in the meta from low ps generics to higher ps named. All in all power creep wise it's not bad

"Creep" implies a slow, deliberate movement towards something (an escalating level of power from new releases).

The phantom was more of a spike because that thing came roaring out the gate

But I do agree that the Phantom was released to force a variance in the previous swarm heavy meta by introducing an arc dodger like no other. They might've taken it a step to far with that 4/4 profile though

As a former 40k player I know power creep all to well and it's not really an issue in x-wing.

Yes the phantom is a strong fighter but it's far from immortal, one bad turn will see it disintegrated and we all know they have multiple counters.

AT will not make large turret ships disappear but it will make the ship's taken as escort a more important choice and you'll be less likely to pile on all your points on one ship.

The simple truth is interceptors were useless against turrets unless they were piloted by a certain baron and even then one bad roll would often kill him.

Yes the phantom is a strong fighter but it's far from immortal, one bad turn will see it disintegrated and we all know they have multiple counters.

AT will not make large turret ships disappear but it will make the ship's taken as escort a more important choice and you'll be less likely to pile on all your points on one ship.

The simple truth is interceptors were useless against turrets unless they were piloted by a certain baron and even then one bad roll would often kill him.

To be fair, I really don't think the Phantom (least of all Whisper) is a ship that fits the description of "one bad turn will see it disintegrated...". The amount of action independent benefits (i.e, the things you can do after bumping or running through an asteroid) they generate make them very forgiving (Free lock, free re-cloak, free focus, pre-manuever de-cloak displacement the following turn) provided they have a shot. Agreed with everything else.

I'd say the description is much more relevant for 3 hull Ties, especially the Interceptor

It's a key difference between them, and why I don't think auto-thrusters will push any interceptor to the point of absurdity.

Power "creep" in X-Wing has more to do with the fact that this is a first-generation game. Some mistakes/oversights were made early in the game (ordnance, EPT distribution, underappreciation of the effects of mobility, overcosting of pilot skill [or undercosting of Veteran Instincts]. etc) and the fixes are attempts to correct those mistakes in line with the newer vision for the game. Likewise, other small mistakes trickle in here and there, but are getting fixed/compensated by the overall game. I believe that Scum will "even out" the playing field a little more, but in reality, it will need to be X-Wing: Version 2.0 that really gets the game onto the track of balance. That will let them sweep aside a lot of the fixes, integrate them into the overall design and flow of the game, and really have a top notch, competitively balanced game. I would love to see titles serve a role OTHER than retcon patching, and instead be more generally used as a way to drastically alter the playing style of a given ship. I believe we'll see that in Version 2, but we'll probably have a couple years at least before that gets a serious consideration.

I think because scum plays more like Rebel playlists, (less maneuverability, more firepower) you might see more rebel playlists just transfer over to S&V because it fits their style better. IT won't mean rebels will have a hard time, it just means that S&V will displace many rebel builds and play styles.

I think because scum plays more like Rebel playlists, (less maneuverability, more firepower) you might see more rebel playlists just transfer over to S&V because it fits their style better. IT won't mean rebels will have a hard time, it just means that S&V will displace many rebel builds and play styles.

lovers of the y-wing, for sure