Action evade, ptl to lando, roll 2 evades, gain 2 evade tokens. First shot call 0 for 3p0, 4 evades in one turn. Not the most efficient since there's no gunner, but it can work.

The problem with the rebel turrets at least...

Again, half the point of this thread is that people who play Rebels are tired of Han and Dash as being seen as the only answer to the question of "what should I fly?"

The problem with the rebel turrets at least...

Again, half the point of this thread is that people who play Rebels are tired of Han and Dash as being seen as the only answer to the question of "what should I fly?"

but no one can answer that question because noones played with s+v. We simply don't know. The answer to AT interceptors for rebels is the same as before, because the interceptor is still hypermobile and can prey on less mobile ships. Its a slightly better matchup for the interceptor, but it's not going to change the fact that turrets counter mobility. So asking how to beat them is redundant to asking it before you knew about s+v.

I don't know if phantoms will go away due to an excess of cheap damage sources, if they do x wings can get back onto the table. Noone Knows if turrets will go away when faced with 4 3 agility heavy laser cannons, or 5 mangler cannons. if they go away then a wings might get to shine, or y wings get to be the turret of choice with it's new modification.

It's not like either Han or Dash aren't highly maneuverable ships with dials that are capable of keeping ships in arc. There's just been no reason to really bother before Autothrusters.

I am tired of turrets as well.

So if all Imperial players will promise to stop playing Phantoms all Rebel players will promise to stop playing Han/Dash lists.

So, I've been trying to get Wes popular in the Wave 5 meta, specifically

Wes (29)

*V.I (1)

*R3-A2 (2)

*Engine (4)

[36]

Phantom prices but a really nice counter, though rebel captive will essentially force a trade by making Wes similarly vulnerable (but it doesn't stop R3-A2 or Wes' ability ). The stress doesn't particularly hurt decimators, but slapping off their target-lock really infuriates V.I chiraneau (which is the variety I see most often in my area) and Super Dash (doubly so because it basically takes PTL off his action bar)

The EU is an arguable addition because it's expensive, but it's also a guarantee. You're not going to out fly a phantom, you're just going to use the engine's bank to course correct your facing so you can declare an attack. His ability and R3-A2 do the rest, even if you do no damage.

You can reproduce the build with Wedge and Luke, but their pilot abilities have different dynamics (Wedge > high agility, Luke survives a bit better against swarms) and Wes' is geared towards neutering a single ship, and can do so even if he does no damage (a huge possibility with his only action potentially going towards boost)

Wave 6 is going to reintroduce us to even more PS 9 menaces ala Soontir (hope you like never using PTL) and Darth Vader (ATC? How about no?) and some very nice PS 7 scum pilots (such as Kavil, who freaking detests Wes*), so I think his stock is only going to go up.

The aggressor will be a problem, though...

*No blaster turret for you! Also aggromech only triggers on attack

I think once AT's are released the ships hardest hit by them won't be the YT's. The hardest hit by them would be the Decimators and HWK-290's.

The YT's and Y-Wings will have a much harder time Vs. Autothusterceptors, AutoVipers, Au-Wings, and Aggrethusters. But let's not forget that they (YT's and Y-Wings) still have access to K-Turns. And chances are a good number of Y's will be BTL-A4's so AT's won't affect them as much.

Turrets Vs Equipped AT's are basically "Throwing down the Gauntlet" at Turrets and saying "Let's Joust".

The problem with the rebel turrets at least...

Again, half the point of this thread is that people who play Rebels are tired of Han and Dash as being seen as the only answer to the question of "what should I fly?"

The problem with the rebel turrets at least...

Again, half the point of this thread is that people who play Rebels are tired of Han and Dash as being seen as the only answer to the question of "what should I fly?"

Yes quite exactly, and after AT come hit us the answer to this will probably be: not Rebels!

I think once AT's are released the ships hardest hit by them won't be the YT's. The hardest hit by them would be the Decimators and HWK-290's.

The YT's and Y-Wings will have a much harder time Vs. Autothusterceptors, AutoVipers, Au-Wings, and Aggrethusters. But let's not forget that they (YT's and Y-Wings) still have access to K-Turns. And chances are a good number of Y's will be BTL-A4's so AT's won't affect them as much.

Turrets Vs Equipped AT's are basically "Throwing down the Gauntlet" at Turrets and saying "Let's Joust".

I have played YT-2400 without Outrider and they have a very good dial so you can fly them like a fighter and often keep your big gun pointed at the bad guys. The 2AD turret is a bonus for turns you can't do this. But then against hypermobile ships you will still have a hard time pulling it off.

The BTL-A4 title gives us a great option but for various reasons i will probably fly it on Scum not on Rebels. They have tge better Astromechs for it and the PS5 pilot has an elite talent and a good Pilot ability to boot! Rebels don't have as good options imho. So they will be hurt by AT more.

The HWK on the other hand is just completely taken out of the equation as a fighting ship. It can still support but against AT it will be pretty helpless and not able to pull its weight. Of course every singke HWK pilot has a useful skill and i have never stated that it was a bad ship, but now with AT and regarding the turret dependance of the ship i believe that even with the new Scum pilots it had definitely dropped on the underpowered ship side. It has issues and i think FFG should adress this asap.

The Decimator has the option to take expose which makes Interceptors and Phantoms a lot mote hittable especially with Gunner and Chiraneau ability. The Falcon is pretty much stuck on 3AD which makes it really hard to get any damage on an interceptor, and let's face it a good interceptor will keep out of its front arc even if it K-turns. And if it did so and had it in front, it would still not have any action to punch through.

So on Rebel side there are a whopping 4 ships that take a more or less massive blow from AT while Empire has one and Scum two. And as i said, i think the Decimator will do better against Thrusterceptors with Expose than any other turret ship.

Unless VI on Interceptors (not named Turr) becomes a thing, all of the top pilots of the large turreted ships have the option of beating or at least tieing in the PS game everything that can take Autothrusters. The exception is that VI Tycho will be able to beat VI Dash.

Even at lower PS, Decimators will still have a chance to arc dodge Fel or any of the other ships with Autothrusters with the PTL+Ysard combo. Most Decimator lists I've seen have it rolling with something like a Phantom (and Fel is bound to be popular) that should be able to help deal with Autothruster ships. Decimators can also bring Vader and/or Rebel Captive neither of which are arc-dodgey ships really want to deal with. The Decimator can also tote bombs which can be handy to keep Interceptors off of their six.

Small bases are going to be hit a little harder by Autothrusters, but I can't think of any common lists that really bring small turrets as their main source of damage. Even if they did, unless the entire list is small turret ships there's likely going to be two or three other ships without turrets to pick up the slack. Lists built around Kavil and Palob might be an exception to this, but between Kavil's extra damage and Palob's ability to steal either a focus or evade from his target, they should still do alright against Auttothrusters.

I will reiterate my post. Case and point we are in a waut and see moment. Remember the time when people were going "omg stay on target yadda yadda" or omg yt hlc outrider yadda yadda, marajade rebel captive and tactician blablah. Now that we actually have the ships and the upgrades it's not really that different. It's more about learning how to adjust your playstyle to the current meta hotness and adapt to it if we are talking about competitiveness. Rebel turrets are not the only thing we have period. If that is how people think then it's only one of two things...

A. The assesment is true and ffg broke thier game by making rebels non-viable

Or

B. You have to think and play harder grasshoper.

There will always be a solution to a certain list but that goes without saying that not all solutions are easy. I agree with a prior poster that turrets are just the "lazy way" of doing stuff aside from being less riskier. But again turrets are not the only solution.

Back to topic. Me and my bro proxied Autothrusters already with Vader Soontir and echo/whisper and it doea wreck face if you pit it against the current meta however at the end of the day we are not certain if the lists were are pitting against the new "hotness" would remain competitive in the new scheme of things.

Say a new cannon or upgrade bypasses defense dice like autoblasters at range 2-3, will interceptors be seen? If interceptors with HLCs can nuke a falcon in an alpha strike environment will we see the same numbers of falcons on board? Will any list we see now be untouched when SnV hitS and remain powerful? Wait and see folks...just wait and see. Just play with what you have already in front of you and worry when we get there.

Well the results of a Vassal Tournament using S&V and the new Advanced came in today. I don't want to overstate the results of a single tournament, after all future results could look very different, but it at least points exactly in the direction i was thinking it would. Look for yourself:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/tourney_results?tourney_id=93

Some Conclusions

- Rank 1-6 going to Empire

- Winning list is a Soontir plus Swarm

- Still a lot of Chiraneau but less Phantom

- 2nd place going to Chiraneau/Vader

- Not one Fat Han in the Break, so we can't say how he does.

- All Rebel and Scum lists not doing that well

- Scum still has a learning curve i guess

- Double IG probably not that OP after all XD

Well the results of a Vassal Tournament using S&V and the new Advanced came in today. I don't want to overstate the results of a single tournament, after all future results could look very different, but it at least points exactly in the direction i was thinking it would. Look for yourself:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/tourney_results?tourney_id=93

Some Conclusions

- Rank 1-6 going to Empire

- Winning list is a Soontir plus Swarm

- Still a lot of Chiraneau but less Phantom

- 2nd place going to Chiraneau/Vader

- Not one Fat Han in the Break, so we can't say how he does.

- All Rebel and Scum lists not doing that well

- Scum still has a learning curve i guess

- Double IG probably not that OP after all XD

Considering it's the first ever tournament and there was no fat han representation, I wouldn't state the results of this tournament at all Give people time to learn to play with their new toys so that they can go against the people that have been playing soontir for god knows how long.

After all, #4 was rocking Kath Scarlet and she wasn't even on anyone's radar!

#5 is the sigma 6 (a title which never made any sense to me because there's four of them)

For 1-3, All I'm seeing is the return of Soontir + Mini-swarm and the same large ship + small ship bull with Vader subbed in for a phantom

Exactly my assesment. No one knows for sure till the "meta" materializes and marinates. I am so happy I got both factions after trying desperately to remain pure rebels intially. I am dangerously close to 90 ships pre snv and honestly I am taking my sweet time learning every single ship that's already out. Come snv that's another how many ship combinations we all have to learn sheesh haha. I do wish for things to slow down a bit after the Raider.My wallet is hating me now even after my temporary breakup with Games-workshop. Haha

I am however looking forward to running awings with auto thrusters with a mangler cannon yts though

Well the results of a Vassal Tournament using S&V and the new Advanced came in today. I don't want to overstate the results of a single tournament, after all future results could look very different, but it at least points exactly in the direction i was thinking it would. Look for yourself:http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/tourney_results?tourney_id=93

Some Conclusions

- Rank 1-6 going to Empire

- Winning list is a Soontir plus Swarm

- Still a lot of Chiraneau but less Phantom

- 2nd place going to Chiraneau/Vader

- Not one Fat Han in the Break, so we can't say how he does.

- All Rebel and Scum lists not doing that well

- Scum still has a learning curve i guess

- Double IG probably not that OP after all XD

Considering it's the first ever tournament and there was no fat han representation, I wouldn't state the results of this tournament at all Give people time to learn to play with their new toys so that they can go against the people that have been playing soontir for god knows how long.

After all, #4 was rocking Kath Scarlet and she wasn't even on anyone's radar!

#5 is the sigma 6 (a title which never made any sense to me because there's four of them)

For 1-3, All I'm seeing is the return of Soontir + Mini-swarm and the same large ship + small ship bull with Vader subbed in for a phantom

For more fairness here the first and second Vassal Round using wave 6 and Raider.

2nd http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/tourney_results?tourney_id=80

1st http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/tourney_results?tourney_id=32

All in all imperial victories and Rebels only did well in the first round scoring 2nd.

But variety looks quite good on imperial side. Scum seems not to yet have found itself.

Fat Han seems to have disappeared or does pretty poorly though. It may be the player rather than the list however. EDIT: it was NOT the player because the player in question was the World champ himself, Mr. heaver XD (just saw that)

It's still a small sample though.

Sure, it's best not to ignore it. Just be aware that the scene is not going to remain for very long and that it's best not to incite any alarm just yet.

The imperials are going to have the initial edge because they have both the meta boogieman (phantom) and some of their old, beloved classics are getting a face-lift.

By contrast, Rebels have yet to evolve past their established play-style of swarm or turret and Scum are a whole new bag of worms.

It's going to be a bit before the dust settles and allows us a glimpse at the true Wave 6 meta.

We can certainly predict the arrival of more hyper maneuverability (auto-thrusters, two new native boost ships, Darth Vader coming back to the fore), but we still don't know where that leaves the rest of scum (the Firespray, the Y-wing, the HWK, the Z-95) or how the rebels will adapt to face these challenges.

Looking to the future, I find it particularly interesting that the reemerging Imperial aces are really maneuverable, but they really aren't more defensively capable than Whisper unless you're abusing the pre-recloak shot.

Given Whisper's ideal defenses of 2 hull, 2 shield, 4 effective agility, and up to two defensive actions (Focus/evade, another focus from abilitiy), the others don't stack as highly despite having the same amount of defensive actions.

Soontir can hit the same agility value with Stealth Device, but he's missing shields and is 1 "health" short. Vader has one more hull, one less agility, and stacking defensive tokens gives him no ability to reposition (unlike phantom de-cloak or Fell's stress induced focus after a PTLed roll or boost)

Most importantly, both can be blocked (the lack of a de-cloak option is absolutely enormous in this regard) and get worked over even harder by obstructions because they can't pre-manuever around them (well, you can advanced sensor vader but it really sucks because he has no ATC and his ability only works in the preform action step).

In short, we'll figure something out. The new nasties might not go down as easily to turrets, but overall they're not as durable (nor as damaging) as the phantom.

Slightly off-topic - when we have Autoceptors won't Stay on Target stop PTL being an auto-include on Soontir?

Slightly off-topic - when we have Autoceptors won't Stay on Target stop PTL being an auto-include on Soontir?

Hell fluffin' no

Why limit yourself to 1 action (SOT --> focus from stress, no preform action because stressed) when you could have 3 actions! (action, ptl action, stress focus)

(autoceptors do make V.I Thur actually viable now that his maneuvers may matter again, perhaps even the likes of Lorrir will see some love)

Sure, it's best not to ignore it. Just be aware that the scene is not going to remain for very long and that it's best not to incite any alarm just yet.

The imperials are going to have the initial edge because they have both the meta boogieman (phantom) and some of their old, beloved classics are getting a face-lift.

By contrast, Rebels have yet to evolve past their established play-style of swarm or turret and Scum are a whole new bag of worms.

It's going to be a bit before the dust settles and allows us a glimpse at the true Wave 6 meta.

We can certainly predict the arrival of more hyper maneuverability (auto-thrusters, two new native boost ships, Darth Vader coming back to the fore), but we still don't know where that leaves the rest of scum (the Firespray, the Y-wing, the HWK, the Z-95) or how the rebels will adapt to face these challenges.

Looking to the future, I find it particularly interesting that the reemerging Imperial aces are really maneuverable, but they really aren't more defensively capable than Whisper unless you're abusing the pre-recloak shot.

Given Whisper's ideal defenses of 2 hull, 2 shield, 4 effective agility, and up to two defensive actions (Focus/evade, another focus from abilitiy), the others don't stack as highly despite having the same amount of defensive actions.

Soontir can hit the same agility value with Stealth Device, but he's missing shields and is 1 "health" short. Vader has one more hull, one less agility, and stacking defensive tokens gives him no ability to reposition (unlike phantom de-cloak or Fell's stress induced focus after a PTLed roll or boost)

Most importantly, both can be blocked (the lack of a de-cloak option is absolutely enormous in this regard) and get worked over even harder by obstructions because they can't pre-manuever around them (well, you can advanced sensor vader but it really sucks because he has no ATC and his ability only works in the preform action step).

In short, we'll figure something out. The new nasties might not go down as easily to turrets, but overall they're not as durable (nor as damaging) as the phantom.

The only question that remains is that i am not so optimistic about the Rebels adapting because i just don't see the necessary hardware to do so.

Phantoms, Interceptors, Advanced are now very nice choices for Empire indeed and i will enjoy flying them!

But i just don't see anything of a comparable power level for Rebels.

Slightly off-topic - when we have Autoceptors won't Stay on Target stop PTL being an auto-include on Soontir?

Hell fluffin' no

Why limit yourself to 1 action (SOT --> focus from stress, no preform action because stressed) when you could have 3 actions! (action, ptl action, stress focus)

(autoceptors do make V.I Thur actually viable now that his maneuvers may matter again, perhaps even the likes of Lorrir will see some love)

I largely agree to almost everything you say here.

The only question that remains is that i am not so optimistic about the Rebels adapting because i just don't see the necessary hardware to do so.

Phantoms, Interceptors, Advanced are now very nice choices for Empire indeed and i will enjoy flying them!

But i just don't see anything of a comparable power level for Rebels.

I feel you. It's hard to see much innovation when we've been trudging through the mire of Falcon and Outrider for the longest time now.

The presence of these new threats I believe will inspire innovation, even when we can't see much at the moment (their reduced defenses relative to the phantom does mean that prot rockets will be even nastier )

As for SOT, yes it reduces Soontir's ability to be blocked, but there are some rather massive trade-offs

IF he uses SOT, he won't be rolling and he won't be boosting. He will only have 1 focus for defense or offense.

During the next turn, he won't be able to SOT because of last turn's stress.

IF he doesn't use SOT, he can boost or roll (if he doesn't want to focus)

I don't know, but to me it just seems like a waste of that action bar. At that point, you won't even have to block

On the flip side, could be fun on wedge

No i think you are right, SoT is only good on Farlander.

I gotta say i have to consider SoT on X-Wings. Since they have no mobility after movement anyway, they could do it every 2nd turn.

On Porkins it could be insane fun. If only we had a way to get him to PS9 on top of that...

No i think you are right, SoT is only good on Farlander.

I gotta say i have to consider SoT on X-Wings. Since they have no mobility after movement anyway, they could do it every 2nd turn.

On Porkins it could be insane fun. If only we had a way to get him to PS9 on top of that...

Yeah, sucks about that PS (and Wedge taking unmodified shots if he has to use SOT, but it'll be a thing if they ever release an anti-stress astromech or if they re-work R2-D6 to be more like the Test Pilot title or if they make R5-K6 more than just a crap FCS...)

Actually, R2-D6 without its restrictions would probably only be used to turn Corran into the second coming of the phantom by paying 2 points to make him PS 10...so eh

Piggy does make for a very decent V.I + R3-A2 + E.U vessel, though I personally prefer Wes' ability and higher PS (no bid, baby!) in that role.

Wedge with Stay on Target paired with Kyle Katarn to pass him Focus?