I play Rebels a lot (mainly because the other guys around are Imperial bootlickers XD), but i am not making this thread because i am a pure Rebel player. I play Empire and will play Scum too, and i like it. And for competitive play i will just play what the meta dictates, no complaints! I wanted to clarify that this is not a Whinethread by a Rebel player.

But if i look at Wave 6, unless i miss something very important, Rebels get literally nothing that helps them compete. The contrary is the case. I will explain myself.

If you look at top Rebel lists right now they mainly have one thing: Turrets. It's Han or Dash with Corran or Z-95s. And after that there is a huge gap to the rest of Rebel ships.

Why is that? Well it's an easy answer: Lack of alternatives for top meta.

X-Wings struggle hard to find a spot at the moment

B-wings are good choices but their 1 agi just takes too much good hits from Phantoms and other 4-dice attacks.

Y-Wings are in the same case and i feel that the Title is a nice toy but will not help them compete.

A-Wings just lack the firepower to kill an Interceptor or Phantom, or Kenkirk, or other Hans, or anything basically and this no matter what you tuck on (except expensive oneshot Prockets)

The HWK is a good support but nothing more.

Z-95 fill lists but their swarm is weaker than a Tie Swarm.

The E-Wing is not conpetitive apart from Corran.

Now Autothrusters will make the Interceptor viable in the meta and help Starvipers and Aggressors a lot at least. The Rebel option for them is just mediocre.

now for the faction that does (have to) rely on turrets so much, i just feel AT ships will pose a massive problem. They have no plan B. There is nothing in the Rebel arsenal that can replace turrets at the moment, and if they get countered so hard, Rebels will struggle as a faction.

The second best squad without turrets for rebels would probably be a Control list. But Clever Phantoms and Fels can easily arc-dodge those mostly low PS lists and their control.

So while Imps will have at least two super competitive ships in wave 6 (Phantom, Interceptor), Rebels will not have much to write home about.

I can't say how well Scum will fare at this moment yet, but they look pretty solid at first glance.

I know a lot of you will probably not agree and perhaps you just see possibilities i missed, but i can't see how a wave 6 top competitive list might look like if AT sees a lot of play, which it probably will!

Again this is not a complaint, i just try to analyze the situation we will soon get into. Feel free to tell me your opinion.

I realized this a while going over the y wing updates in s & v and realizing that those upgrades don't actually help the rebel y wings. The Aces upgrade to the A also are a little lackluster.

The problem with your analysis is that it proceeds from the assumption that just because turrets are by far the most popular Rebel ships at the moment, they're the only thing that can compete.

You forgot another exclusive rebel power.

Damage regeneration. Rebels are the only faction that can consistently regenerate shields and hull. IIRC, one IG-88 version also has that ability, but not as readily usable as rebels.

Imperials may have their fancy tricks, but one well placed shot still removes them from the board.

Just wait until the Tie x1 drops then you Rebel terrorists will be in real trouble!

Keep in mind a few things:

- Against HLC Dash, it turns a blank result into an Evade when fired at from Range 3 or from out of his firing arc. Dash is still throwing four dice in that situation, which can usually overwhelm and deal damage against a 3-dice defender.

- Against Han, it reduces damage from out of his firing arc. The YT player will probably need to be more aggressive when it comes to actually putting the Autothrusters ship into his firing arc when attacking.

I also think 2-dice ships are probably going to struggle a bit against Autothrusters. A TIE swarm or A-Wing that engages Soontir Fel at range 3 is going to find themselves facing a lot of evades.

Mangler Cannon and Greedo are going to help foster in a high-Crit meta.

Rebels are the best of the lot against that.

Rebel Astromechs have good synergies with BTL-A4

Rebels get Bombs, on ships with Ionization capability.

Keep in mind a few things:

- Against HLC Dash, it turns a blank result into an Evade when fired at from Range 3 or from out of his firing arc. Dash is still throwing four dice in that situation, which can usually overwhelm and deal damage against a 3-dice defender.

- Against Han, it reduces damage from out of his firing arc. The YT player will probably need to be more aggressive when it comes to actually putting the Autothrusters ship into his firing arc when attacking.

I also think 2-dice ships are probably going to struggle a bit against Autothrusters. A TIE swarm or A-Wing that engages Soontir Fel at range 3 is going to find themselves facing a lot of evades.

HLC dash will disappear because high ps squints can exploit the whole so mangled dash will be preferable but will struggle to land more than one hit a turn.

I for one look forward to a more diverse meta, after all its not just squints with autothrusters but star vipers and aggressors so two factions will give big turret ships fits.

I think its too soon to tell how much AT will impact the meta, but if I were to speculate I would say that the Rebs won't be as bad off as OP says.

Right now Interceptors are almost unusable (except for Fel) in tournaments. So they actually need some help just to compete with turrets. If interceptors were seeing tournament play right now without auto thrusters THEN I would be worried about them getting too powerful.

It's also important to remember that auto thrusters are not nearly as useful vs. non-turreted ships

Most meta shifts have followed a similar cycle:

1) Overreaction to announcement: "x is going to be OP!" etc.

2) Meta Flood: In tournaments everyone flies the new hotness or its counter (or variations thereof)

3) Stabilization: People learn how to adjust their play style to the new threat and it becomes naturalized into the meta.

4) Tweaks: FFG gently nudges things that need help (or shoves them into prominence in the case of the TIE Advanced)

I couldn't care less if they are competitive or not in Wave 6. If not, good riddance. After years of Biggs and Han, they can eat it for awhile. My bigger issue with the Rebs is that I don't enjoy flying any of their ships and have to force myself to use them. Oh, A-Wings... I need you to break my Rebel funk.

AT not working against regular fighters does not matter because squints never had an issue in that regard, it will help them close into knife fighting range.

I remember when stay on target was teased

Lots of op threads about that.

Since wave 5 hit has anyone used it?

I haven't but been wanting to

You've also got the Raider release that will water down some of the Autothruster Interceptor craziness. Both ships are going to fill similar niches in Imperial lists.

I remember when stay on target was teased

Lots of op threads about that.

Since wave 5 hit has anyone used it?

I haven't but been wanting to

I've seen it mostly on Keyan Farlander.

The problem with your analysis is that it proceeds from the assumption that just because turrets are by far the most popular Rebel ships at the moment, they're the only thing that can compete.

I wouldn't blame him. This the assumption everyone and their mother and their mother's dog seems to be making this wave.

I'm with the "good ******* riddance" crowd. Playing against rebels this past few months was like pulling teeth with nothing but dice exchanges with fool-proof 360 arcs and the same upgrades over and over and over...

I sincerely hope turrets get knocked down something fierce, or at least that more players will starting thinking outside the box and bringing Jakes or Keyan or some of the really great upgrades that seem to have been lost in the ancient relic that is the rebel transport box.

S&V is gonna destroy the meta and blow it wide open, it's much harder to build a list with three factions and we'll see the rise of the take on all comer list.

All I can say is "Good Good"

While the data thus far points to AT certainly shaking things up it hardly means a death knell for turrets.

The falcon is still extremely difficult to kill and the outrider can still zip around like no ones business...they won't be Al powerful...but they will still be good viable ships...one "switch a blank to an evade" isn't going to change that...

All I can say is "Good Good"

While the data thus far points to AT certainly shaking things up it hardly means a death knell for turrets.

The falcon is still extremely difficult to kill and the outrider can still zip around like no ones business...they won't be Al powerful...but they will still be good viable ships...one "switch a blank to an evade" isn't going to change that...

And really, that's for the best. A game is at its optimum when it features a healthy amount of variety.

I'm sure I'm close to alone in my belief that turrets were the single ****-up of an otherwise hallmark game, that they completely miss the point of tactical maneuver-based dog fighting, and that we'd all be better off if they re-worked the rules into something more player involving and less mind-numbing.

I'm also sure I'm not the alone one getting sick of seeing them in most every **** squad.

Color me excited. Wave 5 can't get the boot fast enough.

The problem with your analysis is that it proceeds from the assumption that just because turrets are by far the most popular Rebel ships at the moment, they're the only thing that can compete.

I wouldn't blame him. This the assumption everyone and their mother and their mother's dog seems to be making this wave.

I'm with the "good ******* riddance" crowd. Playing against rebels this past few months was like pulling teeth with nothing but dice exchanges with fool-proof 360 arcs and the same upgrades over and over and over...

I sincerely hope turrets get knocked down something fierce, or at least that more players will starting thinking outside the box and bringing Jakes or Keyan or some of the really great upgrades that seem to have been lost in the ancient relic that is the rebel transport box.

I'm fine with Han and Dash disappearing, but it's sad that there's no PS9 rebel pilots in a ship that isn't overpriced or turreted. Makes it really tough for Rebels to compete with upcoming autothruster squints and Whisper.

Maybe people will actually start using things like Neera and Jake and the like. Still looks a bit grim for Y-wings but I haven't had a chance to play the BTL title yet to decide.

All I can say is "Good Good"

While the data thus far points to AT certainly shaking things up it hardly means a death knell for turrets.

The falcon is still extremely difficult to kill and the outrider can still zip around like no ones business...they won't be Al powerful...but they will still be good viable ships...one "switch a blank to an evade" isn't going to change that...

And really, that's for the best. A game is at its optimum when it features a healthy amount of variety.

I'm sure I'm close to alone in my belief that turrets were the single ****-up of an otherwise hallmark game, that they completely miss the point of tactical maneuver-based dog fighting, and that we'd all be better off if they re-worked the rules into something more player involving and less mind-numbing.

I'm also sure I'm not the alone one getting sick of seeing them in most every **** squad.

Color me excited. Wave 5 can't get the boot fast enough.

You're not alone, but I do think you're wrong. Turrets pay a huge premium for their ability to ignore firing arcs, and they suffer from an eggs-in-one-basket problem. They also typically suffer from a vulnerability to being swarmed.

The issue is that, probably due to the fact that they're obvious and reliable counters to high-PS Phantoms with Advanced Cloaking Device, nearly everyone decided not to be caught without a Large turret--and at the same time, for largely the same reason, nearly everyone also stopped running swarms. It didn't help that Wave 4 happened right as the efforts to actually collect and publish tournament lists and results hit high gear, so suddenly everyone could see exactly what the best players were using to win.

If autothrusters did anything to help Phantoms, I'd be worried. As it is, I think we might start seeing some warthog Y-Wings with R2 units, just to make things interesting. And maybe some A-Wings kitted out as Phantom hunters.

Wave 6 does help Rebels, with Autothrusters and warthogs, and probably an EPT or 2 that we've yet to see. But just by forcing imperials to do something different, it's gonna help Rebels at least somewhat.

I get this thread being mainly a Rebel player but honestly I've given up on over analyzing the meta curb until it actually gets there. I will boastfully claim that I flied "Fat Han" the moment they reached our shores on the worldwide release date even before it became the "meta" and in the end it doesn't really matter because in the end whatever build that really kicks the current flavor of the month's ass will get played on top tables and casuals.

At one point I might feel inclined to agree with the OP, BUT you cannot talk about meta gaming without considering all factions involved. Mentioning Auto-thurster Ints and Phantoms are not enough with the amount of ships that will be out there once SnV hits. The third faction may or may not matter competitively but it will definitely shake things up as competitive players now also have to ensure that they can defeat most Rebels, Imperials and SNV lists.

Turrets alone are not the only "1-up" rebels have. We also still have the PS advantage over both SNV and Imps. Come SNV the PS initiative bid/ Ps bid may or may not be as important during the Han Vs Whisper/Echo wave. Rebels have naturally higher PS even on usable generics which will come to play. The rebel mechanic of having tons of shields are also still significant in the grand scheme of things. If anything else I dreading the current meta for rebels more as I've quickly overgrwown the Yt-2400. Flying it with today's kool-aid of Ptl, EU, HLC, Outr, Kyle gets so boring I am actually liking Imps more now. With the donut hole avoidance game of the Outrider, EVERY GAME FEELS THE FREAKING SAME...pre-ptl before engagement then TL, free-focus boost or barrel roll all day, everytime, any time against any list. Now that is what worries me. Falcons and Decimators actually make me think more whether to chase at R1, stay at midrange r2 or swim outside at r3 on top of playing defensively or aggressively .

What I am trying to illustrate is that before the Outrider was released, a lot of rebel players have speculated so much on the perceived meta game only to realize than when the ships actually arrive, the prediction is so far off that most heated discussions don't even matter anymore when it does come out. Who would have thought Imperials would actually fly 2 ship builds more effectively than Rebels? As of the moment, people are having an easier time flying your decimator of choice plus phantom of choice than Falcons and Outriders.

When SNV comes out and people start playtesting stuff, that is when people who understand the game better will come up with new bizarre (or obvious) power lists that may or may not determine the faction specific meta. And only then will the top players even move an inch to come up with builds that beat it. Rinse and repeat.

You're not alone, but I do think you're wrong. Turrets pay a huge premium for their ability to ignore firing arcs, and they suffer from an eggs-in-one-basket problem. They also typically suffer from a vulnerability to being swarmed.

The issue is that, probably due to the fact that they're obvious and reliable counters to high-PS Phantoms with Advanced Cloaking Device, nearly everyone decided not to be caught without a Large turret--and at the same time, for largely the same reason, nearly everyone also stopped running swarms. It didn't help that Wave 4 happened right as the efforts to actually collect and publish tournament lists and results hit high gear, so suddenly everyone could see exactly what the best players were using to win.

I am in no way against turrets as an issue of balance. I realize their ability are reflected by morbid costs.

I just detest the turret rule as implemented because it's 99% foolproof (land on obstruction) and drool-inductively boring because while my opponent might get to maneuver according to my position, I'm just stuck throwing dice and getting dice thrown at me no matter how I fly. As my handle would suggest, I am not overly fond of certain dice.

Hate them. They turn a great game of X-wing into yahtzee, or catch the birdie + yahtzee.

Again, really excited to see the spotlight get stolen from them and looking forward to burying them with auto-thrusters (though I'll miss my swarm )

Really hoping the overshadowed rebels will now come back into the fold, especially the PS 8s that shoot to 10 with VI (assuming phantoms will still be hyper dominant considering all the new tech). I've always felt that Wes deserved a lot more respect (R3-A2, Engine, V.I) as do Jakes and Keyan.

So i see all the turret haters have their fun.

Okay. This is not a turret defense thread. If you think turrets are a broken mechanic i will not say the contrary. What is however very interesting here is that you want people to see new possibilities and think out of the box for Rebels.

But you just talk about A-Wings as Phantom Hunters, Farlander and Warthogs as alternatives.

Play that against Whisper/Echo and probably also against Fel and see for yourself what happens. They have higher PS and they will in a lot of cases outmaneuver you with their action phase maneuvers alone. So much for dials should play a bigger role! In fact a Phantom in a turret-less environment can pretty much do a random non-red maneuver and get away with it! (Overstating here but the adjustment options are insane)

S&V shaking the meta up is also great but it won't change the Rebels problems. Either Scum will have competitive lists or not. But what i am concerned is that Rebels will have none.

My main concern is not turrets, even if i personally never saw a problem with them. Do what you want with them, but If they disappear from the meta, Rebels have nothing to deal with hypermobile high PS ships. And those will most probably be at the top of the meta even more than now.

- A-Wings can outmaneuver Phantoms and Interceptors If skilled and lucky, but they can't hurt them!

- Farlander is great, but he either is not maneuvrable enough (with VI) or has not enough PS (with PTL or SoT) to outmaneuver other factions hypermobile ships.

- High PS X-Wings are too immobile. No movement options means unplayable even in current meta and that will remain true.

- Y-wings with BTL on rebel side are mediocre options, i have yet to see a single decent build. With Turres, AT counters them with all the rest of the turrets.

- HWKs... well forget it!

- E-wings, too expensive for a ship less maneuvrable than an interceptor. Corran is nice but without a partner that can deal and take damage he can't win.

- low PS swarm type lists are beefy, but fail to get enough arcs on hypermobile ships as they also happen to have a lot of green dice, and you will hardly have enough shots per turn to punch through that.

So while you have been turret bashing, you have actually not pointed out a single viable Rebel list or concept that could replace turret lists. That is silently agreeing to the thread title actually!

So many of the OPs bullet points are so flat out wrong it's hard to take it seriously enough to bring out from under the troll bridge. Other then rebels not getting as much out of this set as imperials. It does seem that way but the set isn't out yet so I'd refrain from crying wolf.