Vader

Expose

Title

Advanced targeting computer

Engine upgrade

Omnicron

Advanced sensors

Fleet officer

Fel

Ptl

Autothrusters

Title

Stealth device

Fleet officer will allow vader to get three actions, no stress, and can

Boost to arc dodge

Had 35 pts left over.

Fel seemed like a solid choice.

Could throw echo in there but this looks like fun

Will have to give this a try

Oof. With the full EI treatment, Vader Target Locking, Focusing, and Exposing is getting 3.25 hits with the average roll, with one automatically being a crit. Up close you're averaging 4 hits, with one being automatic crit. Honestly, though, Predator is almost always going to be better, right? It's 3 points less than Expose+Experimental Interface, no AGI or Stress tax, and works without actions.

Moreover, Predator + Engine Upgrade is the same price as Expose + Experimental Interface, and while it's not as potent as an offensive buff, it gives him considerably more speed and maneuverability.

I want to like expose, as the poor thing is just so overcosted I feel sorry for it, but as people have said, far too many better options. I'm a fan of the less offence focused ones myself - Daredevil for example.

Actually, I don't mean "less offensive". I like Daredevil as a means of approaching range 1, which actually gives you the same offensive benefit as Expose.

I want to like expose, as the poor thing is just so overcosted I feel sorry for it, but as people have said, far too many better options. I'm a fan of the less offence focused ones myself - Daredevil for example.

It's not even that Expose is overpriced, honestly. It's that Expose gives you a benefit that, in most cases, wouldn't be worth having even if the upgrade were free.

It's fun to look for the corner cases where it does work, but even then there are often just too many hoops to jump through for a list to be feasible. Really the only exception, for me, is Decimator + Experimental Interface.

Only downside being you lose an agi.

And an action.

Expose takes up an EPT slot, an action, four points and costs one agility. In terms of average damage it's worse than the focus action. By itself it sucks. Experimental Interface improves it significantly but you really don't want to stress Vader.

Expose has a home with EI on the Decimator and that's about it.

I'm going to fly my vader with wingman so he can go nuts with other pilots pushing the limit.

Only downside being you lose an agi.

.....but you really don't want to stress Vader....

This

Predator is ok, but Lone Wolf is better for a couple reasons. One re-roll on two dice will net you two hits the majority of the time, and a defensive re-roll is crazy good when you can focus and evade reliably (especially on a tank like the advanced). The best way to kit Vader out is Lone Wolf, X-1 Title, ATC and EU. That is 36 points of brutality. Just the way it should be.

Expose should not be used by anything with agility.

Predator and ATC is just a vastly better option in my mind.

There you get option of using 1-2 dice rerolls and adding the crit, + spending the Focus - at no penalty to yourself.

Expose costs too much;

It costs an action

It costs an EPT slot

It costs 4 squad points

It costs 1 Agility dice.

3 of those costs are static, the last, the Agility penalty, is variable, based on the number of shots the enemy will take at you. It could be 0, but it could be much higher.

In terms of raw damage, I think outmaneuver or predator are just better choices.

Predator and ATC is just a vastly better option in my mind.

There you get option of using 1-2 dice rerolls and adding the crit, + spending the Focus - at no penalty to yourself.

You only get to re-roll two if the enemy is low PS, which is not often these days (at least not around here). ATC still adds a crit and you're only re-rolling blanks so if you have any symbols at all you're good. And there is no defensive re-roll - extra evades are no small thing. And Lone Wolf is a point cheaper. I mean mileage varies, and style is a personal thing, but it certainly seems that Lone Wolf is better to me.

Lone Wolf seems like a decent alternative because it is 1 point cheaper and lets you re-roll a blank attack/defense die.

However - I've used Lone Wolf a lot, on both small and large ships, and even in small Squads consisting of 2-3 ships it is "blocked" an average of 3 times per game, as you still need to fly relatively close to be able to focus fire a target down. It gets even worse on large ships whose R2 radius is ~25% of the board.

Predator is always active - when attacking - and wrecks PS 1-2.

While YMMV, for me, it is no contest.

It's not even that Expose is overpriced, honestly. It's that Expose gives you a benefit that, in most cases, wouldn't be worth having even if the upgrade were free

Indeed, I was wondering if it would ever be worth having even with a 4pt point reduction.

What makes it so great on a Decomator, by the way? I get that the agility cost is gone, but it still takes 4pts (plus Experimental InterfaceI) and your EPT slot. When is it better than Push the Limit & Engine Upgrade?

What makes it so great on a Decomator, by the way? I get that the agility cost is gone, but it still takes 4pts (plus Experimental InterfaceI) and your EPT slot. When is it better than Push the Limit & Engine Upgrade?

I'll have a crack at this one.

As you noted, the Agility penalty is gone. The turret makes it's green moves less limiting. It only has 4(?) green moves but that will rarely put it out of a shot. You can EI off the Ysard evade, so a Deci being blocked is not as bad as Vader being blocked.

I don't know if it's strictly *better* than PtL + Engine upgrade, but it's certainly a tougher decision for the Deci than any other ship. I lean more on the arc dodge side of damage mitigation, but if you're playing a game that you think you'd have trouble doing that, like against other turrets, burning down your opponents ships faster is definitely a way that works too. Dead ships don't shoot back.

What makes it so great on a Decomator, by the way? I get that the agility cost is gone, but it still takes 4pts (plus Experimental InterfaceI) and your EPT slot. When is it better than Push the Limit & Engine Upgrade?

I'll have a crack at this one.

As you noted, the Agility penalty is gone. The turret makes it's green moves less limiting. It only has 4(?) green moves but that will rarely put it out of a shot. You can EI off the Ysard evade, so a Deci being blocked is not as bad as Vader being blocked.

I don't know if it's strictly *better* than PtL + Engine upgrade, but it's certainly a tougher decision for the Deci than any other ship. I lean more on the arc dodge side of damage mitigation, but if you're playing a game that you think you'd have trouble doing that, like against other turrets, burning down your opponents ships faster is definitely a way that works too. Dead ships don't shoot back.

Yeah, but is the offensive improvement significant? I'm assuming you have Focus + Expose, with PTL you'd have Focus + Target Lock, which I gather mathematically is only slightly less good, plus you have the option of boosting instead when the situation calls for it (maybe it'll get you into range 1, so it can be offensive as well as used for arc dodging).

Actually, I'd do TL + Expose with Chiraneau as he has a 'soft focus' ability. While Focus and TL are more or less the same for doing a damaging hit, TL will crit slightly more often, and Chiraneau turns once focus into a crit.

Assuming Range 2 or 3, it's 4 dice, with rerolls, with 1 focus getting turned into a crit. It's pretty deadly.

Using any other Decimator, yeah, not really sure. I still lean to the PtL + EU side of things.

I used expose ans EI on kenkirk, you need to be selective when you expose and when you turtle but I won a couple of games using it so it's not terrible.

I want to like expose, as the poor thing is just so overcosted I feel sorry for it, but as people have said, far too many better options. I'm a fan of the less offence focused ones myself - Daredevil for example.

It's not even that Expose is overpriced, honestly. It's that Expose gives you a benefit that, in most cases, wouldn't be worth having even if the upgrade were free.

It's fun to look for the corner cases where it does work, but even then there are often just too many hoops to jump through for a list to be feasible. Really the only exception, for me, is Decimator + Experimental Interface.

This is pretty much the issue with Expose. I've tried to make it work. I really have. I even did a list with Gemmer Sojan w/ Expose and even Jan Ors. I once got a 5 dice shot with him! It still wasn't worth it overall. With Vader, you can almost see it being worth it. He's got 2 actions and can boost the attack with the other. He's an arc dodger and can use it only when no one will shoot at him. That does happen if there are no turrets around. The problem is that it costs 4 pts. It's way to expensive. If it were free, it would be a tough sell on anyone, but you could make it work in a few places. PAYING for it is just a bad idea. You get a better return from other upgrade options. It's worse than ordnance.

Expose was the way to go with Vader before ATC. With ATC out, Predator is better. The jump from 2 attack to 3 attack was worth it, but now the price for that bit more firepower is too high, I think. The charm with Vader was, that he normally does not have to worry about losing an agility die, because he will be arc dodging most of the time.

Expose was the way to go with Vader before ATC.

No, no it wasn't. Vader with Expose is a PS9 EPTless X-wing (27pt) without his ability for 33 points.

The charm with Vader was, that he normally does not have to worry about losing an agility die, because he will be arc dodging most of the time.

In a TIE advanced?

The charm with Vader was, that he normally does not have to worry about losing an agility die, because he will be arc dodging most of the time.

In a TIE advanced?

Yes, in a Tie Advanced. With two actions and going last, Vader can dodge a lot of arcs if you are clever. I've done it to Interceptors. In fact, I love taking down Soontir Fel with Vader. It's even better if you give Vader Engine Upgrade, but that's more points.

Expose was the way to go with Vader before ATC.

No, no it wasn't. Vader with Expose is a PS9 EPTless X-wing (27pt) without his ability for 33 points.

To quote someone from upthread:

Expose costs too much;

It costs an action

It costs an EPT slot

It costs 4 squad points

It costs 1 Agility dice.

Vader can address the action cost, but he still pays the others: he's 4 squad points more expensive, he gives up his EPT, and he becomes noticeably squishier. (Arc-dodging is a partial solution to the defensive problem, but that typically costs an action, and now you're back to square one on the acton cost of Expose).

Expose has always been too costly for it to be a good choice even on Vader. I have no idea why it's proven to be so stubborn.

The charm with Vader was, that he normally does not have to worry about losing an agility die, because he will be arc dodging most of the time.

In a TIE advanced?

Yes, in a Tie Advanced. With two actions and going last, Vader can dodge a lot of arcs if you are clever. I've done it to Interceptors. In fact, I love taking down Soontir Fel with Vader. It's even better if you give Vader Engine Upgrade, but that's more points.

Yes, but that means using one of your actions to get out of arc, which means after using expose you don't hve an action left to focus.

What if expose didn't cost an action? How much would it be worth, points wise, if it said "at the start of the combat phase you may choose..."?

The charm with Vader was, that he normally does not have to worry about losing an agility die, because he will be arc dodging most of the time.

In a TIE advanced?

Yes, in a Tie Advanced. With two actions and going last, Vader can dodge a lot of arcs if you are clever. I've done it to Interceptors. In fact, I love taking down Soontir Fel with Vader. It's even better if you give Vader Engine Upgrade, but that's more points.

Yes, but that means using one of your actions to get out of arc, which means after using expose you don't hve an action left to focus.

What if expose didn't cost an action? How much would it be worth, points wise, if it said "at the start of the combat phase you may choose..."?

I feel like Expose would have been fair at 4 points if it just permanently allowed you to choose +1 attack and -1 agi with no action cost, but was limited to small ships only. That would be too good on the Falcon or Decimator, and I think the designers were wise to nerf this card so that it didn't limit what ships could be designed in the future. If Expose was good, then every time they wanted to design a new ship with an EPT, they'd have to ask themselves "wait, is this broken with Expose?".

I actually think Expose is an expertly designed "bad card" in that it looks really good to new and bad players, while experienced players can feel smart for knowing/figuring out why it's a bad card. The key to designing bad cards is that some of them need to look really bad, so the new players can feel smart for identifying it as bad, and some of them need to look good, so the smart players can feel smart for identifying it as bad while the new players use it.