As you know, Im trying to make my own custom cards for pretty much every ship in the Star Wars EU.

As im doing the dials I wonder this, What criteria would you use to give a ship a S-Loop? Because there is hardly any ship more maneuverable than the TIE Interceptor or the A-Wing and they dont have it.

Currently, the IG-2000 and the StarViper have it. We dont know yet if the Scyk will have it.

The first criterion is Wave 6 or later, which I think answers your question.

The Scyk doesn't as it doesn't have the rule card.

It's not about how maneuverable it is. Stress is a combination of Pilot and ship. So the Awing can probably do it, but the stress on the frame and pilot will probably make him pass out, plus it depends on the skill of the pilots also.

I would say very few in any will have it besides those two. Plus both of them do these maneuvers in the books, so they are probably basing it on that too.

It would be neat to see a New EPT:

EPT

1 Pts

A-wing and Interceptors only. Or they could say any ship with a boost

Must have PS>=6 or higher

Segnor's Loop. Your ship may now perform a 3 move segnor loop. Roll 1 attack die after completing the loop, on a hit count as being ionized.

This resembles passing out after pulling the maneuver, but still allowing it. And some skilled pilots to pull it off in other ships.

I know its Wave 6 or later. And I know its a maneuver FFG made to add more new things to these ships. But if we skip the game mechanics, which ships should have it?

Defender title that adds a white segnor's would really make it a more competitive ship

Does skipping the mechanics also mean skipping the limitation of maneuvers on the dial? That is to say, the TIE interceptor should have all of the maneuvers theoretically?

If you're looking for an in-universe reason, probably because the S-loop is a fancy trick that doesn't fit much with Imperial military doctrine. It's not that the interceptor can't pull it off (although both ships that can do it have variable geometry wings with little maneuvering jets on them I don't think that'll last) but more that the pilots by and large don't know how.

The dials roughly represent maneuverability but game design has a very strong influence. Trying to fit them tightly to lore's likely to turn up problems. Mostly TIE defender shaped problems.

If you're looking for an in-universe reason, probably because the S-loop is a fancy trick that doesn't fit much with Imperial military doctrine.

If the question is "how do we justify the fact that only two ships can execute Segnor's Loop?", this is where I'd go. The ships/pilots with the maneuver are all Scum, because it's the kind of dirty, crazy trick you learn through years of continuous low-level warfare against people with dirty, crazy tricks of their own--rather than by sitting on a well-padded chair in a classroom on Carida.

If the question is "which other ships are maneuverable enough in canon that we could plausibly retrofit them with Segnor's Loop", my immediate answers would be the A-wing, TIE interceptor, and TIE defender. The ships that have it are state-of-the-art, military-grade ships with a very high ratio of power to mass, and nothing else in the Imperial or Rebel fleets strikes me as immediately in need of an S-loop on its dial.

Thinking about it from a physics perspective, only ships with highly advanced multi-directional thrust control are capable. While Tie-Ints and A-wings are highly maneuverable, their thrusters are more or less 1 directional like modern day jets.

A k-turn is cutting thrust, spinning 180, then punching hard to counter momentum. That's why ships like the tie bomber only have a 5 kturn. The b-wing is a 2 turn because it wasn't traveling fast to begin with. Ties have a much smaller k-turn because their thrust-mass ratio is better than x-wings.

An s-turn is doing the same thing, but also maintaining a constant lateral acceleration even while the ship is spinning to turn around. That can only be done by super maneuverable ships like the starviper (those wings constantly change shape during flight which have microthrusters at the tips) and the ig-2000 (those arms are thrusters).

Here's how I see it:

The Agressor has it because IG-88 takes your physics and throws them on the ground.

The Starviper has it because it's got those long, spindly wing-things with maneuvering thrusters on them, allowing the thing to flip around in all kinds of crazy ways, so long as the internal intertial dampers hold out.

What you need to consider for the S-loop, then, are (1) whether the pilot can naturally override whatever safety mechanisms might be in place that would prevent it and (2) whether the ship itself offers some extraordinary maneuvering capability that would allow it to perform such a tough maneuver.

If you're looking for an in-universe reason, probably because the S-loop is a fancy trick that doesn't fit much with Imperial military doctrine. It's not that the interceptor can't pull it off (although both ships that can do it have variable geometry wings with little maneuvering jets on them I don't think that'll last) but more that the pilots by and large don't know how.

No.

Thinking about it from a physics perspective, only ships with highly advanced multi-directional thrust control are capable. While Tie-Ints and A-wings are highly maneuverable, their thrusters are more or less 1 directional like modern day jets.

A k-turn is cutting thrust, spinning 180, then punching hard to counter momentum. That's why ships like the tie bomber only have a 5 kturn. The b-wing is a 2 turn because it wasn't traveling fast to begin with. Ties have a much smaller k-turn because their thrust-mass ratio is better than x-wings.

An s-turn is doing the same thing, but also maintaining a constant lateral acceleration even while the ship is spinning to turn around. That can only be done by super maneuverable ships like the starviper (those wings constantly change shape during flight which have microthrusters at the tips) and the ig-2000 (those arms are thrusters).

Just about every craft used by every faction during the civilwar has thrust vectoring capabilities. Interceptors had the most advanced ion stream projects with manual controled deflectors. The pliot controls both TVP independently, so far no other SW single person craft can do this in the lore.

If you're looking for an in-universe reason, probably because the S-loop is a fancy trick that doesn't fit much with Imperial military doctrine. It's not that the interceptor can't pull it off (although both ships that can do it have variable geometry wings with little maneuvering jets on them I don't think that'll last) but more that the pilots by and large don't know how.

No.

Informative.

Thanks everybody for your imput. I think I now have an idea for which ships should have the S-Loop

An s-turn is doing the same thing, but also maintaining a constant lateral acceleration even while the ship is spinning to turn around. That can only be done by super maneuverable ships like the starviper (those wings constantly change shape during flight which have microthrusters at the tips) and the ig-2000 (those arms are thrusters).

I really like this explanantion. The wings and arms work as flaps for the loop (I know there is no air, but I can imagine it being the reason).

That leaves me with ships like the Rogue Shadow or the Ginivex Fighter to fit perfectly the S-Loop.

Just about every craft used by every faction during the civilwar has thrust vectoring capabilities. Interceptors had the most advanced ion stream projects with manual controled deflectors. The pliot controls both TVP independently, so far no other SW single person craft can do this in the lore.

Nah, I call BS. Human cognition and reaction time can't handle manual control of kind of thing, which is why most modern aircraft have pilots essentially input commands to a computer, which takes a whole bunch of other data into account before executing the maneuver.

Unless TIE interceptors are less complex than current fighter aircraft...?

Just about every craft used by every faction during the civilwar has thrust vectoring capabilities. Interceptors had the most advanced ion stream projects with manual controled deflectors. The pliot controls both TVP independently, so far no other SW single person craft can do this in the lore.

Nah, I call BS. Human cognition and reaction time can't handle manual control of kind of thing, which is why most modern aircraft have pilots essentially input commands to a computer, which takes a whole bunch of other data into account before executing the maneuver.

Unless TIE interceptors are less complex than current fighter aircraft...?

EU's written by a lot of people. Some likely lack experience in military aviation. That's why with the old EU you've got to be selective. The new EU's got a Story Group to keep tabs on such things, and even then a bit of selectivity is necessary.

As far as I'm concerned a TIE interceptor's a higher performance TIE fighter, they're both mass production craft without significant bells and whistles. High tech but straightfoward.

EU's written by a lot of people. Some likely lack experience in military aviation. That's why with the old EU you've got to be selective. The new EU's got a Story Group to keep tabs on such things, and even then a bit of selectivity is necessary.

Oh, sure. I just feel like it's a good idea to apply some standards for reasonableness, or at least basic consistency, to EU material--particularly when it lapses into technobabble.

EU's written by a lot of people. Some likely lack experience in military aviation. That's why with the old EU you've got to be selective. The new EU's got a Story Group to keep tabs on such things, and even then a bit of selectivity is necessary.

Oh, sure. I just feel like it's a good idea to apply some standards for reasonableness, or at least basic consistency, to EU material--particularly when it lapses into technobabble.

Pretty much what I was saying.

the Rogue Shadow

That's a pretty big ship and it's not an assault fighter like the IG-2000, it's a transport. Kinda hard to picture it S-looping.

If you're looking for an in-universe reason, probably because the S-loop is a fancy trick that doesn't fit much with Imperial military doctrine. It's not that the interceptor can't pull it off (although both ships that can do it have variable geometry wings with little maneuvering jets on them I don't think that'll last) but more that the pilots by and large don't know how.

No.

Informative.

Emperor-botherers are SO useful, yeah?

Just about every craft used by every faction during the civilwar has thrust vectoring capabilities. Interceptors had the most advanced ion stream projects with manual controled deflectors. The pliot controls both TVP independently, so far no other SW single person craft can do this in the lore.

Nah, I call BS. Human cognition and reaction time can't handle manual control of kind of thing, which is why most modern aircraft have pilots essentially input commands to a computer, which takes a whole bunch of other data into account before executing the maneuver.Unless TIE interceptors are less complex than current fighter aircraft...?

Assumes humans in that galaxy are at the same stage of evolution but they've interbred with aliens and have exposure to organisms and environmental conditions we don't, plus you have to factor in the force while not everyone's a Jedi they are all connected so you can't factor in how that effects things.

Irl yeah couldn't be done, in a sci-fantasy setting you hand wave it away.

Just about every craft used by every faction during the civilwar has thrust vectoring capabilities. Interceptors had the most advanced ion stream projects with manual controled deflectors. The pliot controls both TVP independently, so far no other SW single person craft can do this in the lore.

Nah, I call BS. Human cognition and reaction time can't handle manual control of kind of thing, which is why most modern aircraft have pilots essentially input commands to a computer, which takes a whole bunch of other data into account before executing the maneuver.

Unless TIE interceptors are less complex than current fighter aircraft...?

I think what they are saying is the pilot adjusts the thrustvectoring indepenent from the rest of the avionics. Ive never have flown a craft with thrust vectoring but from what I have seen the computer adjust the jet angle based on pliot commands through the stick. In this case with the Interceptor it just has the TV as a seperate control.

Besides being capable of manuvers most other craft in SW cant do it also is listed as unstable. If its TV commands are not run througggh the avionics than that would be one reason its unstable.

To get an edge in a dogfight some functions like limiters can be switched but it can be dangerous. In the 14 the wing controls could be set to manual. You could then sweep the wings back making enemies think your going to do a high speed turn, after passing the control is back to auto and youd do a low energy turn ending up behind your enemy.

Just about every craft used by every faction during the civilwar has thrust vectoring capabilities. Interceptors had the most advanced ion stream projects with manual controled deflectors. The pliot controls both TVP independently, so far no other SW single person craft can do this in the lore.

Nah, I call BS. Human cognition and reaction time can't handle manual control of kind of thing, which is why most modern aircraft have pilots essentially input commands to a computer, which takes a whole bunch of other data into account before executing the maneuver.Unless TIE interceptors are less complex than current fighter aircraft...?

Assumes humans in that galaxy are at the same stage of evolution but they've interbred with aliens and have exposure to organisms and environmental conditions we don't, plus you have to factor in the force while not everyone's a Jedi they are all connected so you can't factor in how that effects things.

Irl yeah couldn't be done, in a sci-fantasy setting you hand wave it away.

I think the imp tie graduates are force conected more than most, if not surely the aces.