I have an issue at the moment with the amount of activation phase manoeuvring that is happening. I understand having some reactionary manoeuvring ability is useful, but I have become a little bored with the meta of the game where arc-dodging has become de-rigueur. This has also lead (at least in my own local meta), of the virtual death of the X-wing in competitive lists. This is a great shame for the iconic ship. Examples of dodging taken to an extreme are Dash Rendar with Ptl and Engine Upgrade.

In short, no.

The changes just add complexity with no real gameplay improvements

That would be so funny if it was implemented! Just when the Interceptors are about to get back into the game, you hit them right behing the knees by preventing them from doing a second maneuver action, try dodging my arc! Thou shall not have your hour of glory!

...

But seriously, no.

3) Engine Upgrade. This card gains the following text. Small Ship Only.

No more boost action with the large base ships. I am aware this nerfs Dauntless + Daredevil + Engine Upgrade on Oicunn. See following for why we do this.

This I'd really like to see. Not so sure about others. 1) is no-no.

If your having trouble with ptl dash just block him. No actions then.

Happy with rules as they are and don't feel the game requires a manouvere fix.

Just sounds like your having issues with opponents dodging your arcs tbh which you should be planning for in your own manouveres.

Yeah, big no.

Some ships are supposed to be squirrely. It's not anyone's fault that the x wing isn't.

The x wing is still wonderfully competitive. I killed a double phantom squad with 2 reds and dash. Dash held off whisper while the Reds took dark curse and Echo. Piece of cake.

If the OP hates the moves going on now just wait until Wave 6 is released. Autothrusters will bring back some of the most maneuverable ships in the game > Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

Making Engine Upgrade small ship only would eliminate the entire purpose behind the card, namely, to give the YT-1300 the Millenium Falcon's maneuverability and speed. Look at the art on the card, and the pack it comes in.

The alternate boost mechanics for large ships, on the other hand, are interesting, but I think they're too limited as you suggest them.

As for the limit on maneuver actions, I can see where some people might think such a thing would be a good idea, but I just don't see a need.

I think astromechs keep the xwing competitive, and you can always throw EU on them as well. I was playtesting a list on vassal against myself, I ran a pimped out deci and echo against a 4 xwing list, which I threw in mostly for fodder for something to shoot at, and the xwing trounced them, the tore that decimator up and spit it out, and tarn with R7 changed about 7 hits to misses with his ability and R7.

I think xwings are a little over costed, but many of the astromechs give great abilities for next to nothing.

When you are less maneuverable, hang back a bit. Odds are you will have a shot, just not range 1.

Proof that you can't please everybody. Most of the forum is in an uproar over how turrets violate the "spirit of the game", by removing the value of maneuvering a target into your arc. And now you are here coming in complaining about ships being too maneuverable.

Honestly, to your #3, add Engine Upgrade to the Restricted List along with whatever would go on, and problem solved. I think Falcons having to choose between the title, Threepio, or Engine Upgrade may be an interesting choice.

That would be so funny if it was implemented! Just when the Interceptors are about to get back into the game, you hit them right behing the knees by preventing them from doing a second maneuver action, try dodging my arc! Thou shall not have your hour of glory!

...

But seriously, no.

I actually wouldn't be averse to adding an Interceptor only Modification that allows 2 manoeuvre actions per phase for minimal or zero cost. Probably with no downside. I accept Interceptors are supposed to be squirrelly!

If your having trouble with ptl dash just block him. No actions then.

Happy with rules as they are and don't feel the game requires a manouvere fix.

Just sounds like your having issues with opponents dodging your arcs tbh which you should be planning for in your own manouveres.

Dash was merely an example... Yes of course you can block 1 arc dodger. But you have missed my initial point. Arc dodging in itself isn't the whole issue. The issue I have is that by having these super mobile high PS squads we are making the planning phase of the game less. The game's requirement that the player make decisions on what manoeuvres to do without all the information is part of what I find interesting.

Yeah, big no.

Some ships are supposed to be squirrely. It's not anyone's fault that the x wing isn't.

The x wing is still wonderfully competitive. I killed a double phantom squad with 2 reds and dash. Dash held off whisper while the Reds took dark curse and Echo. Piece of cake.

As before I accept Interceptors are supposed to be squirrelly. Some other ships too.

But one time where a pair of Reds destroyed Echo and Dark Curse doesn't mean they are competitive. Assuming bare Echo those are the same points cost. Now I would assume Echo had some upgrades. So your 2 Reds took out more than their own points cost. Which is great. I will ask how you managed to get any shots on Echo. If he is being played well you should next to never get a shot on him. But this really beside the point.

If the OP hates the moves going on now just wait until Wave 6 is released. Autothrusters will bring back some of the most maneuverable ships in the game > Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

As above. Who said I hate what is happening now? I merely find it a bit boring. I enjoy flying interceptors sometimes, just as I have fun flying high PS arc dodging lists occasionally. The problem is that meta has become Fat Falcon/Outrider + filler for rebels, and high PS arc dodging lists (either Phantom or Fel) with mini-swarm or Decimator.

I can't remember the last X-wing or Tie Bomber I saw in a winning competitive list. (I've seen X-wings in losing lists - Tarn with R7 being a good example.)

Making Engine Upgrade small ship only would eliminate the entire purpose behind the card, namely, to give the YT-1300 the Millenium Falcon's maneuverability and speed. Look at the art on the card, and the pack it comes in.

The alternate boost mechanics for large ships, on the other hand, are interesting, but I think they're too limited as you suggest them.

As for the limit on maneuver actions, I can see where some people might think such a thing would be a good idea, but I just don't see a need.

Yes, Engine Upgrade comes with the Falcon. Yes the card art is the Falcon. That doesn't mean that current large ship boost rules are not broken. The rule changes to boost and the replacement of Engine Upgrade with Overcharged Engines make boosting with large ships less crazy. If you can come up with another way of doing large ship boost that makes it less ridiculous please weigh in...

I think astromechs keep the xwing competitive, and you can always throw EU on them as well. I was playtesting a list on vassal against myself, I ran a pimped out deci and echo against a 4 xwing list, which I threw in mostly for fodder for something to shoot at, and the xwing trounced them, the tore that decimator up and spit it out, and tarn with R7 changed about 7 hits to misses with his ability and R7.

I think xwings are a little over costed, but many of the astromechs give great abilities for next to nothing.

Playtesting against yourself is a rather pointless exercise. But that aside, I'm not saying the reason I want to look at these changes is only because the X-wing is being underused. Yes, you can make it manoeuvrable by adding Engine Upgrade or Expert Handling. It becomes more expensive. Indeed astromechs are lovely. But even with that - you still don't see them being used.

When you are less maneuverable, hang back a bit. Odds are you will have a shot, just not range 1.

Yup you will. So first round you get a shot. Then from then onwards you are being out manoeuvred. I have tried playing a kiteing X-wing list. Shoot then run past fast. Turn and re-engage. Problem is that more manoeuvrable lists can turn back faster. They also get to choose when to engage. Especially if they can use their manoeuvre actions to run away.

Proof that you can't please everybody. Most of the forum is in an uproar over how turrets violate the "spirit of the game", by removing the value of maneuvering a target into your arc. And now you are here coming in complaining about ships being too maneuverable.

Honestly, to your #3, add Engine Upgrade to the Restricted List along with whatever would go on, and problem solved. I think Falcons having to choose between the title, Threepio, or Engine Upgrade may be an interesting choice.

Indeed. Turrets are a counter to manoeuvre lists. Autothrusters will make this less of an issue.

So because other people complain about turrets violating the "spirit of the game", I can't talk about what I currently dislike in the game? That seems a bit of a red herring...

I actually enjoy the manoeuvre part of the game. Guessing where you opponent will go, trying to choose the correct counter manoeuvre, seeing your opponents face when you out thought them. This is something I miss now. We see so much action phase manoeuvre actions that you can guess your opponent's intentions and move accordingly or see them make a mistake and misread your intentions and choose a less than optimal manoeuvre, and yet they can still manoeuvre out of arc or range of you. It devalues the planning phase of the game.

Now if you can tell me how we can keep the super manoeuvrability of multiple manoeuvre ships and yet reduce the activation phase reactionary manoeuvrability then please go ahead. I'm all ears.

I can't believe 6+ months after the Fat Han has become a thing that people are still complaining about it. Yes, it is one of best SINGLE ship builds, but it's also 60+ points. Yes, he can go very fast and has a turret. But it's not like he's unpredictable. More often than not, he's going to fly circles around the perimeter of the asteroids. 3 and 4 straights, along with 3 banks are common place. And if he turns into the rock field, then you really know where he's going to go.

Even with EU on Han, it's not that hard to get him in arc. I suggest approaching him off set through the rocks. This way he can't turn into you and fly straight past you. In the mean time, you can bank to get shots, followed up with turns to maintain arc on him, and now you're in a trailing position for the rest of the game. And from there, it's really easy to stay there.

As for actually doing damage to the ship, it's not too difficult if you concentrate on it and play the game "safe" such that most of your ships have arc. If you have a two ship list, then I'm assuming you have another Fat build, and don't need to go through the math. But if you're at a 3 ship list, more than likely, one is a 4 attack ship, and the others are 3. I know, this is not always the case (I personally have been running an EAA 3 ship list), but it seems like a fair place to start. If he's boosting, that means that he doesn't have an evade token. So, you're left with 10 dice against his 2 (+C3PO evade). Assuming you have actions, that means that you'll roll 7.5 hits, and he'll evade a C3PO, and .75 of another, so you do 6 damage to the ship. Second round of shooting is probably the same thing, but you end up with a dead ship at the end of it. But now Han only has 1 hull left, and you have 2/3 of your squad. So it'll probably take both ships shooting at him to actually kill him on R3, while one of your ships is taken down to half health. Now you have 1.5 nice ships left against either 1 nice ship, or 3 crappy ships. You have the advantage either way.

The main problem comes in from the approach. If you do not approach him correctly, Han can outfly you, leaving you with only having 1 to 2 shots on him, which won't kill him, and you will lose. EU can be frustrating on him, but it's far from unexpected and difficult to predict. Oh, and if you're still struggling, I hear Corran eats them!

Bilisknir, that's a lot of changes you propose and a lot of stuff for people to wrap their heads around. You could house rule it, but I think it would make it very hard and take away fun.

Here's a houserule you might like to try:

The perform action step is moved to the combat phase, prior to attacking.

That would make the activation phase:

1 reveal dial

2 set template

3 execute maneuver

4 check pilot stress

5 clean up

Combat phase

1 perform actions

2 declare target

3 roll attack dice

etc

Advanced Sensors would still function as normal.

Impact of this moving of the perform action step would be huge

Note that I'm not advocating such a move, but it might be something to try.

I think that Bilisknir has a point. I don't know anything needs to be fixed or rules need to be changed. But the current meta is seeing a glut of high PS hypermobile ships. Ships that low PS, non-hypermobile ships can't keep up with.

The X-Wing for example even if you have a PS8+ pilot, it still has issues because it can't reposition to deal with things like decloaking, barrel roll, or boost. If it's true that Wedge can never get a shot at a Echo/Whisper when both players are equalled skilled, then something is in fact wrong.

IMO Engine Upgrade isn't a valid answer because spending more points on an already expensive ship is not a good answer.

^ this up here is garbage.

I will defend x wings to the death.

The very first time I played against super dash, I did it with wedge, Luke and Corran. I had an x wing in the donut every single time.

I think that Bilisknir has a point. I don't know anything needs to be fixed or rules need to be changed. But the current meta is seeing a glut of high PS hypermobile ships. Ships that low PS, non-hypermobile ships can't keep up with.

The X-Wing for example even if you have a PS8+ pilot, it still has issues because it can't reposition to deal with things like decloaking, barrel roll, or boost. If it's true that Wedge can never get a shot at a Echo/Whisper when both players are equalled skilled, then something is in fact wrong.

IMO Engine Upgrade isn't a valid answer because spending more points on an already expensive ship is not a good answer.

Well, technically, there is Stay on target available as an EPT. I know that it is spending more points but Echo and Whisper are probably at 35-37 pts so, you still have 6-8 points left for upgrade. Wedge+Stay on target+R2=32pts still lower and will have a shot at least once every two rounds against them. Pair him with Dutch for the TL or Roark and initiative so you move after Whisper AND shoot before or a wingman to clear stress so you can SoT every turn, etc. Or Wedge + PtL + R2 + Engine Upgrade=37 pts, same as Whisper with VI + ACD.

There is ways to counter highly maneuvrable ship, but restricting a ship to take an Upgrade (Han, Dash or Decimator with Engine Upgrade) just so you don't have to do it yourself with *insert your favorite ship name* is not what I would consider a good fix. And that's assuming that there is a problem in the first place. Having a harder time tailing a target is a weakness of the X-Wing, but saying that it can't have a line on a highly maneuvrable ship is not true. Soontir with PtL has been out since Wave 2 and people seems to have dealt with it just fine.

I can't believe 6+ months after the Fat Han has become a thing that people are still complaining about it. Yes, it is one of best SINGLE ship builds, but it's also 60+ points. Yes, he can go very fast and has a turret. But it's not like he's unpredictable. More often than not, he's going to fly circles around the perimeter of the asteroids. 3 and 4 straights, along with 3 banks are common place. And if he turns into the rock field, then you really know where he's going to go.

Even with EU on Han, it's not that hard to get him in arc. I suggest approaching him off set through the rocks. This way he can't turn into you and fly straight past you. In the mean time, you can bank to get shots, followed up with turns to maintain arc on him, and now you're in a trailing position for the rest of the game. And from there, it's really easy to stay there.

As for actually doing damage to the ship, it's not too difficult if you concentrate on it and play the game "safe" such that most of your ships have arc. If you have a two ship list, then I'm assuming you have another Fat build, and don't need to go through the math. But if you're at a 3 ship list, more than likely, one is a 4 attack ship, and the others are 3. I know, this is not always the case (I personally have been running an EAA 3 ship list), but it seems like a fair place to start. If he's boosting, that means that he doesn't have an evade token. So, you're left with 10 dice against his 2 (+C3PO evade). Assuming you have actions, that means that you'll roll 7.5 hits, and he'll evade a C3PO, and .75 of another, so you do 6 damage to the ship. Second round of shooting is probably the same thing, but you end up with a dead ship at the end of it. But now Han only has 1 hull left, and you have 2/3 of your squad. So it'll probably take both ships shooting at him to actually kill him on R3, while one of your ships is taken down to half health. Now you have 1.5 nice ships left against either 1 nice ship, or 3 crappy ships. You have the advantage either way.

The main problem comes in from the approach. If you do not approach him correctly, Han can outfly you, leaving you with only having 1 to 2 shots on him, which won't kill him, and you will lose. EU can be frustrating on him, but it's far from unexpected and difficult to predict. Oh, and if you're still struggling, I hear Corran eats them!

Red herring again? Where did I discuss Fat Han as being a problem? I was saying that Hyper mobile ships are the problem. Fat Han isn't that. I don't have an issue with Fat Han. So please stop talking about turrets here.

^ this up here is garbage.

Then you didn't actually read it. Because I was speaking hypothetically, I'm not saying that Wedge can not get a shot in at a phantom, only that if it becomes that with equally skilled players, that if one ship completely shuts down another, like say X-Wing vs Phantom, then something is broken.

I don't think we've reached that point yet, but it is heading that way.

I know that it is spending more points but Echo and Whisper are probably at 35-37 pts so, you still have 6-8 points left for upgrade.

If the X-Wing is overcosted as many think it is. Then more upgrades can not be the answer.

And that's assuming that there is a problem in the first place.

I agree, and I don't know that there is a problem, but given the direction of the game, it seems like we're headed that way. More and more upgrades are coming out that seem to make the high PS Hypermobile ships better.

If only Rieekan wasn't epic only. .

I think it's more likely that we'll see a pilot, EPT or Astromech droid that prevents usage of the Boost or Barrel Roll action within range 1.

solution: play turrets

there, now you don't have to give a single thought to manuevers

solution 2: Requires actual tactics/thoughts. take advantage of moving first and block those assholes

Now if we're just talking the impact of boost/roll on large ships specifically, then I am happy to report that the fat base is not too difficult to keep in arc. The only problem is Dash (mr free reign of the table), but he is balanced out by a PS 7 and an inability to take guaranteed defenses/dice boosts (gunner is worthless with title, 2 agility means no guaranteed 3PO, only one crew slot makes it a valuable upgrade choice, no evade action). Kyle katarn super dash is a pain, but he's limited to very specific green maneuvers and still doesn't come out as durable as the fat ships.

Some general things I've found helpful when dealing with big base boosters

1.) Stay around range 3. Not only do you get more green dice while they roll a measly 1/2 (Dash gets 3, but he's not as tanky), but your firing arc is wider the further you are from the target. Wider arc + large base = easier to keep enemies in arc.

2.) Funnel turrets towards you. The biggest problem with turrets is that the enemy doesn't have to give a **** about facing and can maneuver where-ever they **** well please. Problem is non-Dash fatties get hosed by obstructions because they don't ignore and lose their action, which is a pretty huge deal.

I like to set up asteroids/debris to block off as much of one side of the table as possible, forcing them to come in at predictable angles.

Against Dash, corner everything

As for the viability of X-wing, try the two pilots that excel against single ships that take up a lot of points (namely Tarn + R7 to re-roll their one attack and Wes to slap off target locks/potentially stress super dash with R3-A2). Unfortunately, they're locked away in the transport. Still, in casual games anything goes as long as your opponent

Also, Biggs. He's a wild pain in the ass for turrets because they always have a shot at him.

Bilisknir, that's a lot of changes you propose and a lot of stuff for people to wrap their heads around. You could house rule it, but I think it would make it very hard and take away fun.

Here's a houserule you might like to try:

The perform action step is moved to the combat phase, prior to attacking.

That would make the activation phase:

1 reveal dial

2 set template

3 execute maneuver

4 check pilot stress

5 clean up

Combat phase

1 perform actions

2 declare target

3 roll attack dice

etc

Advanced Sensors would still function as normal.

Impact of this moving of the perform action step would be huge

I was debating moving the perform action step to prior to the activation phase. But then there are issues with how to play PtL, how to deal with red manoeuvres, manoeuvre action blocking.

You could restrict this to manoeuvre actions, but has similar issues.

Having actions in the combat phase doesn't really solve the issue either. Manoeuvrable ships still have an advantage.

I had been trying to keep things as simple as possible, I could quite happily throw out the changes to boosting large ships. Then the only change is to restrict to one manoeuvre action a phase and a couple of card errata/changes.

What i would sorely love to do would be to require declaration of actions prior to any dials being revealed. Then have the actions played out after your manoeuvre has been played in the activation phase. i.e. you have to plan actions like manoeuvres. But that is significantly too complicated.

I looked at the speed attributed to boosting. An A-wing is slower than the Falcon when boosting. I was looking at either houseruling boosting small ships get to use the 2 template or negating boosting on large ships.

If the fastest starfighter can't catch a freighter, what's the point in flying a starfighter?

2 template negates the large base bonus when double moving so an upgraded freighter matches speed with an A-wing instead of pulling away from it. The lower is a measure of a large ship movement without boosting.

At the end of the day this is still a game I like to win/lose at with my friends.