Hello there!

I've been GMing for a few games and one thing I can't get even after reading the whole CRB and a few threads here is this: can you make a skill check in a manoeuver?

My examples are this:

1. A PC is in a chase while piloting a ship or a vehicle. As a GM I am using the chase rules to determine if the character is getting closer or not to the opponent's ship/vehicle. As I understand the rules, the flying/driving should be the action (since dice have to be thrown to determine the outcome of the chase that round) and since two actions can't happen the character shouldn't be able to fire a weapon.

This makes little sense to me and my players. Could we just make the skill check for the flying/driving as a manoeuver and then make the skill check for the firing of an attached weapon as the action skill check? That makes two checks back-to-back in the same round but it makes so much more sense to us... Of course if we do this we have to account for fire arcs.

2. An enemy NPC is in a warehouse with a PC. The PC is using a blaster and standing in the open. The NPC is using a knife and wants to get close to make a melee attack and sticks to the shadows. Can the NPC make a stealth check while doing his manoeuver (approaching the PC) and then immediately use an action to attack him or he has to make his manoeuver, than make a stealth action (since dice have to be thrown) to not be seen and be unable to attack for the rest of the round? That sounds ridiculous...

So, what do you think? Do you allow skill checks in manoeuvers when it makes sense? Did I misunderstand the rules?

So, what do you think? Do you allow skill checks in manoeuvers when it makes sense? Did I misunderstand the rules?

I'm away from book, so don't take this as gospel, but I seem to recall that accelerate and decelerate are maneuvers, not actions. That's where I would make the roll for dodging asteroids or flying through superstructure.

(Mind you, vehicle combat is my weakest subject in GM school).

As for the other, I'd go with what makes sense. The Target is the one that is making the "Notice the assassin sneaking up on me" roll, so I'd probably go with it. He can sneak up, shank and slip into the shadows in one round.

I'm away from book, so don't take this as gospel, but I seem to recall that accelerate and decelerate are maneuvers, not actions. That's where I would make the roll for dodging asteroids or flying through superstructure.

(Mind you, vehicle combat is my weakest subject in GM school).

As for the other, I'd go with what makes sense. The Target is the one that is making the "Notice the assassin sneaking up on me" roll, so I'd probably go with it. He can sneak up, shank and slip into the shadows in one round.

Yeah, "fly" is a manoeuver, not an action. I understood that you don't make skill checks in manoeuvers and that's why I'm confused; I want my PCs to be able to make a "fly" skill check and then, in the same round, make an "attack" action to see if they can hit the enemy they are chasing with onboard weapons that are accessible to the pilots. That makes two skill checks in a row in the same turn.

As for my "assassin", as I understand it you'd do this:

1. Assassin's turn begins.

2. Assassin makes a manoeuver to get from close to engaged range from the PC

3. PC immediately makes an opposed perception check (vs stealth) to see the assassin

4. Assassin makes a melee skill check for his attack

Once again, that's two skill checks in a row in the same turn. Is that "allowed?"

So, what do you think? Do you allow skill checks in manoeuvers when it makes sense? Did I misunderstand the rules?

I'm away from book, so don't take this as gospel, but I seem to recall that accelerate and decelerate are maneuvers, not actions. That's where I would make the roll for dodging asteroids or flying through superstructure.

Those are both maneuvers, yes. Further, for that specific example, I would allow the player to "stay the course" by basically repeating the outcome of their last check and fire the weapon this round. Maybe the other pilot will overcome their last check and get some advantage, but that's the cost of being able to fire off a weapon.

As for the second, it depends greatly on the set-up. Is there an unbroken line of sight between the PC and the NPC? Then the NPC has to make a Stealth action to try and disappear. In this case, that would be a contested PC Perception vs. NPC Stealth check. However, if the PC cannot see the NPC, then I'd make the same roll (in secret) and allow the NPC to make an attack depending on the outcome.

Actions are generally a skill check (dice rolls) unless a talent makes it into a maneuver. So I would say you can only have 2 dice rolls on one "turn" in a round if you have one that has one of those types of talents.

>>>1. Assassin's turn begins.

I see no reason this step is not allowed.
>>>2. Assassin makes a manoeuver to get from close to engaged range from the PC
This also seems fine for their maneuver.

>>>3. PC immediately makes an opposed perception check (vs stealth) to see the assassin
Not sure how the PC can make this opposed check if it is not their turn?!? If the assassin is the "PC" in this cause this could be their action.

>>>4. Assassin makes a melee skill check for his attack

This seems fine as it is 1 action. If the PC is the assassin, then this could not happen as it would be a second action.

Edit: clarified based on weird example shown.

So, what do you think? Do you allow skill checks in manoeuvers when it makes sense? Did I misunderstand the rules?

For me, the short answer is "yes, but rarely". Space combat is one of those things I have used it for, because I really don't like the space combat system and the difference between "maneuver" and "action" seems a bit arbitrary. If you had a starfighter dogfight in an asteroid field, nobody would be able to get a shot off because you'd be using all your actions to roll skill checks to avoid slamming into rocks...so I might ask for piloting checks in maneuvers in those instances. But mostly it's not been an issue.

Huh, I've never taken "movement" rolls to take an action instead of a maneuver. If you were in personal combat and someone wanted to use a maneuver to cross a very narrow bridge (without handrails, naturally), which would clearly require a coordination check, would you make it cost their action instead of a maneuver?

Space Combat is the same issue to me, I assume "difficult terrain' rolls are also rolled as part of the maneuver, not as a separate action. Same with the chase system, though for foot chases, most characters are downgrading for a second 'run' maneuver, requiring their chaser to do the same.

Yes you can roll on manuevers but only very rarely. Think of it this way, all actions are dice rolls but not all dice rolls are actions.

For example if the player uses their manuever to jump between buildings technically they're just moving the range band allowed but you might call for an athletics check to see if they clear the gap. typically it should be things like this where the dice roll is only called for to determine the specifics of a manuever (mind you this is my take on it, not the official ruling which is left vague) and it should be kept rare because there are certain signature abilities and talents (If I recall, don't have my books on me) that allow for some actions to turn into a manuever.

So, what do you think? Do you allow skill checks in manoeuvers when it makes sense? Did I misunderstand the rules?

For me, the short answer is "yes, but rarely". Space combat is one of those things I have used it for, because I really don't like the space combat system and the difference between "maneuver" and "action" seems a bit arbitrary. If you had a starfighter dogfight in an asteroid field, nobody would be able to get a shot off because you'd be using all your actions to roll skill checks to avoid slamming into rocks...so I might ask for piloting checks in maneuvers in those instances. But mostly it's not been an issue.

maybe, but not if you stole a TIE fighter

maybe, but not if you stole a TIE fighter

1. A PC is in a chase while piloting a ship or a vehicle. As a GM I am using the chase rules to determine if the character is getting closer or not to the opponent's ship/vehicle. As I understand the rules, the flying/driving should be the action (since dice have to be thrown to determine the outcome of the chase that round) and since two actions can't happen the character shouldn't be able to fire a weapon.

This makes little sense to me and my players. Could we just make the skill check for the flying/driving as a manoeuver and then make the skill check for the firing of an attached weapon as the action skill check? That makes two checks back-to-back in the same round but it makes so much more sense to us... Of course if we do this we have to account for fire arcs.

Also, and please teach and train me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Chase" check a separate.... thing?

I've been under the impression that you "Chase" at the beginning of each turn to get movement out of the way, then you run the rest of the round as normal, with the exception that Fly/Drive/Run isn't an option. With the mechanical objective being to allow for movement and still give everyone an otherwise normal turn to shoot, draw weapons, repair damage, leap from one speeder to another, grab chairs out from under bistro diners and lob said chairs at the person you are chasing....

1. A PC is in a chase while piloting a ship or a vehicle. As a GM I am using the chase rules to determine if the character is getting closer or not to the opponent's ship/vehicle. As I understand the rules, the flying/driving should be the action (since dice have to be thrown to determine the outcome of the chase that round) and since two actions can't happen the character shouldn't be able to fire a weapon.

This makes little sense to me and my players. Could we just make the skill check for the flying/driving as a manoeuver and then make the skill check for the firing of an attached weapon as the action skill check? That makes two checks back-to-back in the same round but it makes so much more sense to us... Of course if we do this we have to account for fire arcs.

Also, and please teach and train me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Chase" check a separate.... thing?

I've been under the impression that you "Chase" at the beginning of each turn to get movement out of the way, then you run the rest of the round as normal, with the exception that Fly/Drive/Run isn't an option. With the mechanical objective being to allow for movement and still give everyone an otherwise normal turn to shoot, draw weapons, repair damage, leap from one speeder to another, grab chairs out from under bistro diners and lob said chairs at the person you are chasing....

That seems like a good option. But I would make the "chase" roll use a maneuver for everyone involved, which then lets them take an action.

The book isn't clear about this at all and they didn't bother to clarify it in AoR either.

In my personal opinion, vehicle combat is one of the weaker parts of the system. It hasn't come up a ton in our game, as we're mostly landbound, but occasionally it rear's it's head. I'd probably allow the piloting roll as a maneuver, unless it's a particularly onerous task that will require all of the pilots attention. Even then I might allow it as a maneuver, but I'd add more blacks to the roll unless they take a full action.

I've actually been running it exactly how ghostofman said simply because otherwise the pilot wouldn't be able to do all the cool manuevers or increase their speed, etc. I figured both ships move period without the pilot doing much and the rolls where more narrative reaction like the GM calling for perception checks to hear or see something more than they where active things taken. Doesn't break the system in chase sequences (I don't do it otherwise), doesn't devalue any talents or signature abilities that I'm aware of and allows for the pilot not to feel like they're stuck just holding up the scene.

In my personal opinion, vehicle combat is one of the weaker parts of the system. It hasn't come up a ton in our game, as we're mostly landbound, but occasionally it rear's it's head. I'd probably allow the piloting roll as a maneuver, unless it's a particularly onerous task that will require all of the pilots attention. Even then I might allow it as a maneuver, but I'd add more blacks to the roll unless they take a full action.

But what about a foot-chase where everyone has to roll athletics or coordination for their "chase" check? Now it seems really limiting... especially if you make it an action.

In my personal opinion, vehicle combat is one of the weaker parts of the system. It hasn't come up a ton in our game, as we're mostly landbound, but occasionally it rear's it's head. I'd probably allow the piloting roll as a maneuver, unless it's a particularly onerous task that will require all of the pilots attention. Even then I might allow it as a maneuver, but I'd add more blacks to the roll unless they take a full action.

But what about a foot-chase where everyone has to roll athletics or coordination for their "chase" check? Now it seems really limiting... especially if you make it an action.

Found it!

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/109590-maneuvers-as-actions/#entry1139466

Jegergryte supplies us with some info that he's had from conversations with Sam Stewart. I'm happy to take his word for it, and am confident that if I were to send a rules question Sam's way, I would get the same response.

Bottom line, if the maneuver you're attempting requires a skill check, it should generally be "upgraded" to an action.

Personally, if you as my player were trying to perform a "complex" maneuver and then attack (say, swing from a chandelier and then chop off a bad guy's head) I would probably require a more difficult skill check—perhaps requiring you to use the worst of your Melee & Athletics skills, and then increase the difficulty to hit +1. Either that, or maybe use a Triumph on the Athletics/Coordination check to allow you to make a free attack. These things are all very situational, though.

Of course, there are a few oddities that specifically allow for a maneuver that requires a check, because muddy waters make for the best swimming holes!

Found it!

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/109590-maneuvers-as-actions/#entry1139466

Jegergryte supplies us with some info that he's had from conversations with Sam Stewart. I'm happy to take his word for it, and am confident that if I were to send a rules question Sam's way, I would get the same response.

Bottom line, if the maneuver you're attempting requires a skill check, it should generally be "upgraded" to an action.

Personally, if you as my player were trying to perform a "complex" maneuver and then attack (say, swing from a chandelier and then chop off a bad guy's head) I would probably require a more difficult skill check—perhaps requiring you to use the worst of your Melee & Athletics skills, and then increase the difficulty to hit +1. Either that, or maybe use a Triumph on the Athletics/Coordination check to allow you to make a free attack. These things are all very situational, though.

Thanks for providing this link; I see that the conversation about this issue wasn't completly new

Since my players have yet to be in a space combat I will experiment it first hand before deciding on a final method, but I still think there is place for improvement in the maneuver vs action department in this game, in terms of clarity.