I don't play with much from Dark Pharaoh, but I have "adopted" a few of its Spells into the base game. I'm reassessing if I should adopt this Spell from out of my closet.

Back when the Great Millmaster was gouging chunks out of the Spell Deck to improve his enjoyment of it--Millmaster liked the Combat Spells--he made a case that Denying the Ancient One was a pointless Spell. Note that this was back when most "worshippers" were Cultists, and just not that hard to put down without such a Spell. I agreed, and mothballed it.

But now worshippers run the depth of the Monster Cup. Not necessarily to any crippling degree, but perhaps enough to raise the viability of this Spell. Anyone who has played with Denying the Ancient One recently...does it see any use? Or is it still more useless than a Mission in your Inventory?

(Once upon a time, I hated the Sedanettes and removed them. But not for very long: they were shuffled back in after I was shown the "proper" way to play Wendy, and learned how to play an unarmed, you-can't-see-me game.)

Actually, I think this spell is very useful.

At least, it's more useful than Voice of Ra (one of the most useless spells in ym opinion).

Its usefulness depends on which Ancient One you're struggling against: it's quite pointless if you're facing Glaaki or, say, Yig...

But it can save your life while facing Shudde M'ell, Quachil Uttaus, Eihort (*especially*) and others.

I do find that Innsmouth has made some previously useless (or at least disfavoured) items get more useful.

Nyogtha, Ghatanothoa, Quachil and Chaugnar Faugn all make mid-range monsters really tough, though Nyogtha is the only one where those monsters might be really common.

Bokrug, however, might be the most interesting use of it... would the Beings of Ib temporarily lose their effects on the game? Could this be potentially useful in a final fight, since it's an Upkeep spell. I'm really not sure if this should work or not: the Beings' powers are on their tokens, not on Bokrug, but the "investigators suffer the penalties" language is on Bokrug.

Another spell that Innsmouth brings to usefulness in limited circumstances is Storm of Spirits. Normally +3 and use Lore instead of Fight isn't that good. Unless, of course Agnes Baker gets it... A +5 spell with -1 modifier and no sanity cost is worth two hands - and with the difference between her Fight and Lore tracks, it's potentially a +8 spell for her. (It's not bad for Harvey Walters, either, though, and perhaps a couple of others, though it's definitely not as generally helpful as Shrivelling)

cim said:

Oh...Gold Star, CIM!

"Bokrug is worshipped by the ghosts of its followers, the Beings of Ib. . . . Investigators suffer the penalties listed on each Being of Ib on this sheet." They are officially "worshippers", and unlike Glaaki or Abhoth, this text is listed directly in the Worshipper column, not in the Slumber Ability column.

I betcha someone's gonna object, though. >ahem cough mi mi mi mi mi mi<

"ThE BeINgs oF IB dO noT haVE aBiLitiEs GraNTeD bY The ANciEnT ONe, so tHe SpeLL dOesN't aPplY."

I remember having denying the ancient one against Eihort and it was ridiculously useful. Oh? A cultist. Deny deny deny. No Brood Token. It made the six person team do quite well with seals.

Someone got beat down by a +2 toughness Warlock today. It would have been nice to prevent that.

Canceling the Brood token from a Cultist is a great use of Denying.

Gott said:

Don't forget Abhoth

I have used Voice of Ra far more often than DtAO to prepare for critical combats or to help improve my chances of closing a critical gate. DtAO may have gotten as many as two casts overall in the last 3 years that I've owned the spell.

If you pass Harvey or Dexter's story, or are Daisy, or maybe the psychiatrist, or the Planetary Alignment environment is out, then Voice of Ra is an amazing spell, of course. For that matter, any high sanity character (or Agnes) can probably get a few turns out of it and end up in profit from failing fewer checks. It's not the most-used spell, but we're usually happy to have it around "in case"

When fighting multiple monsters, Voice of Ra can be really useful. +1 on each horror check, +1 on each spell check, and +1 on each combat check. And if they're in a location or guarding a gate you try to enter, +1 on any skill rolls during encounters. At least the reduced chance of losing sanity during horror checks should justify the use of it in many cases.

Last game I probably would've used that spell (I had crystals of the elder things, BTW), since I had 1 die for the first horror check, none for the second, and I had this combat spell with +2 combat dice per spell check success.

Tibs said:

Who could?

"Worshippers: Abhoth has no human worshippers. Return all Cultists to the box at the start of the game. Place the 3 Child of Abhoth monsters on this sheet. Children of Abhoth that are defeated return to this sheet. They can never be claimed as trophies."

Cultists lose their ability to be returned to the box for the turn.

Player A: I cast Deying the Ancient One

Player B: retrieved the little beggers from the box and puts them in the cup

Upkeep:

Player A "right DtAO expires"

Player B fishes the little beggars out of the cup and returns them to the box

Player A: "I recast Denying..."

Player B: "No you bleeding well don't"

Of course this scenario never happens as the actual worshipper ability of the cultists in an Abhoth game is Return all Cultists to the box at the start of the game. Cancelling this for the turn involves going back in time and restrospectively adding in the cultists in suach a manner that they only appear in the cup on the relevant turn. A logical impossibilty which disrupts the space time continuum, resulting in a flux which can lead. to the instant awakening of Abhoth. Worse still, people everywhere will start to write in italics after the manner of August Derleth!!!

Probably best to just smoothly redraw an alternative spell when no-one is looking

- Mariana the ex-nun cultist

Well, in the case of Abhoth, I'd say when I cast DtAO

1. no Children of Abhoth are placed during this turn, and
2. investigators can claim Children of Abhoth that are already on the board as trophies

Of course this is a very free interpretation (especially 1), and case 2 is a little problematic. In case someone wants to spend CoA as trophies, I'd place them on Abhoth's sheet again.

HëllRÆZØR said:

1. The text that puts the Children in play is part of Abhoth's Slumber ability, which is not targetted by the Spell.

2. Spawn rules are in the manual. They are merely repeated on Abhoth's sheet. I really wouldn't consider that a "worshipper ability granted by the Ancient One".

But clever ideas nonetheless.

Mariana: VERY funny!

I'd say Denying does NOTHING against Abhoth. Placing the Children on his sheet and removing the Cultists occurs at the start of the game. There is never a time when you can cast Denying when it is the start of the game. Even the first Upkeep phase starts after the start of the game.

Denying becomes a throw-away item in that case.

You're most certainly right, Tibs. I just thought that the intention of the spell is to protect the investigators from the ancient one's worshippers, so I made up that little house rule (sorry, I should've mentioned that ^^).

Anyway, I don't like my last approach by now ... I think I will simply ignore any spawn monsters on the board when that spell is cast, not sure about slumber abilities that spawn them (yeah, I know, the rules are quite clear about that matter) ...

As far as the Beings of Ib issue: I guess I could see them being negated before final combat, but I think their final combat abilities all apply at the start of final combat, including being on his sheet and lowering the total rounds to defeat him overall.

If an investigator was in an Other World during final combat, and was able to "buy off" a being, I could see that as being a legitimate way to earn one extra round of final combat. Taking Glaaki's and Cthulhu's precedences, after all, slumbering abilities continue to take effect during final combat. His slumber ability is to buy off the beings; you lose final combat when the beings on his sheet + the number of elapsed rounds of final combat is 8.

Just a little thought I had.

Sorry about digging this one up, but we're somewhat agreed that we can use Denying the Ancient one to spite Bokrug? I'm curious because I have that combo right now. It does seem like exactly the thing the spell was intended to help, but it completely takes away the bite of Bokrug's slumber.

Denying the Ancient One! Good to the last man!*

*Individual results may vary, depending on Ancient One.

Tibs said:

It's occurred to me that they must actually be intended to be ongoing effects (and therefore negatable, in theory), or the Epic Battle card that adds another one to the sheet would not be very useful.

cim said:

Maybe that Sinister Plot means that when you add the new being to his sheet, he immediately gains the bonus (not as an ongoing effect). I'd hate to see a simple one-sanity spell be the complete undoing of Bokrug.