Hi,

I played a lot of times Descent and I noticed that the overlord is unstoppable if he is ruthless. I tryed to play also as an Hero but the result is the same...the overlord is able to defeat heroes in 3 chambers. Adding expansions is catastrophic for the party (I played WoD and AoD expansions (and I have also ToI)).

Is this normal?

I think that more starting conquest token should be assigned to players.

What do you think?

Really wish i had an answer. The best ive found is people comming up with there own home rules just so the overloard doesnt win. Just makes me curious who play tested the balancing of this game.

I've seen that the two largest variables are the quest itself, and the hero party makeup. This is of course assuming 4 heroes, because anything less tends to result in heroes getting creamed.

I won't say things are too much in the Overlord's favor; what I will say is that they are usually too much in ONE side's favor. I've yet to play a quest to completion or even near completion where the outcome was very much in question.

The number of heroes has a huge impact on difficulty.

The WoD and AoD expansions tend to shift things in the overlord's favor with treachery and strong spawn cards; ToI tends to shift things in the heroes' favor with feats.

Many people seem to think that the base game quests are fairly balanced with 3 heroes and no expansions. Expansion quests are generally considered harder, and everyone seems to recommend only playing them with 4 heroes.

The easiest quests for the heroes are probably base game quests 1, 2, and 6. If the heroes still lose those quests, then you are most likely making rules mistakes, or your overlord is just leagues better than your heroes.

Ive found that if you (as a group of heroes) cant win have the heroes pick their characters an one starting skill then draw the rest random, usually helps....or..... just charge an kill as many as you can haha

umm...I'm not satisfied by your answers...in any case I think that the game becomes more balanced when Heroes knows alredy the quest...I'll try to rematch the same quest more times...up to now I playd all the quests in Djitd 2 times each one.

PS.: I hate homerules

Meridian said:

In what respect were the answers unsatisfactory? Were you hoping for something more specific? Maybe commentary on a particular mechanic or strategy? Sweeping analysis of the game's overall balance? Extensive statistics of hero win rates across numerous games?

If you can specify what information you were looking for, we may be able to supply the want. Of course, if you're just disappointed that we didn't agree with you, you're out of luck.

Antistone said:

I'm the guilty; I thought that this feeling about the game was common and that there was alredy a discussion about this problem and a solution was found...maybe I expressed myself in the wrong way.

In any case I'm interested about any aspect you listed (particularly in the best way to compose a party, the best general strategy to approach to a quest for heros and your winning statistics).

I want to understand if:

a) we use wrong rules

b) to have a balanced game the heros need know the quest

c) we have not a good strategy for the hero side

d) the game is unbalanced

PS.: My statistic is: matchs won by Overlord / matchs won by Heroes: 6:1 (total matchs: ~25)

PS.: We always play with 4 heroes.

Meridian said:

In general, my understanding of 'common feeling' is that the game is reasonably balanced overall with no expansions (somewhat favouring the heroes probably, WOD and AoD tilt the balance strongly in favour of the OL and ToI tilts the balance back a little (all with 4 heroes). However the individual quest is the important factor. For example, quest 7 in the original book is very hard, the rest much easier.

a) using wrong rules - how can we tell? But small mistakes can mean a great deal of difference - little things like spawning more than once per turn.

b) I don't believe this is the case. I do believe that if the heroes have played the quest before (all the way through) they have a considerable advantage.

c) this is the most likely source of your imbalance, but not possible to tell without more information. Your best bet is to read the strategy guides on BGG. Not only gameplay, but even hero selection (actually, here is a house rule I would advise - use the RtL hero selection method. Allow each player to draw 3 heroes and choose between them), skill choices and even equipment choices make a difference.

d) I don't think so in general. Some quests are much harder than others, especially those from WoD and AoD.

Apart from Quest 7, we (a variety of players at a monthly games group, with only the OL being consistent, and a couple of hero players playing most of the games) went through the first book with the heroes losing only once. We lost quest 7 5-6 times though!

Common trip ups by new players:

1) Check the spawn rules. Only one spawn card per turn, and figures do not block LOS for spawning.

2) Make sure you understand the difference between wounds and damage as it pertains to Pierce and effect tokens.

3) Have your players been using Guard and Dodge effectively, and understood the power of both of those?

4) Do your players tend to want to kill all the monsters in a room? Speed is essential in Descent.

5) Do you guys have a good handle on the LOS rules?

About the quests:

The original core game's quest were made assuming the heroes would not know what lies ahead. Hence most of them can easily be beaten at the first attempt (except for number 7 which everybody agree is terribly hard). The expansions, on the other hand were created assuming that each quest would be played a fair aumunt of times so they made them harder. This way the heroes are bound to lose in their first (and maybe second) attempt on almost everyone. However as they progress further each time, they eventully know what they are facing and can develop a strategy.

Have you tried to make your own quests? They ma work.

In general, I would say te core game is balanced.

Meridian said:

My guess is that its C, though you may want to check A. In my many games, the heroes tend to win more often than not, though having an imbalance in tactical experience can be pretty devastating.

Meridian said:

a) Do you think you are using wrong rules? if so, which ones aren't you sure of?

b) It does help to know the quests, that is for sure. But half of the fun while playing a quest is not knowing where to go first, and how to react on all the events that you see for the first time. For our group most of the times this results in playing a quest more then once, after which they get further each time, as they know what to do, and what not. So imho, telling heroes the quest takes away a lot of the gaming experience. Our heroes insist of not knowing, not even the rest of the game/rooms/events if they fail a game. They just try again another time, and use the experience they have from the previous time(s)

c) This could very well be the case. Heroes should never waste time!
- Almost always rush towards chests as they give all heroes instant extra and better gear.
- Don't "waste time" killing every single monster the OL sends towards them, as he can spawn a new group almost every round, and this will waste much needed time (the OL will gain more threat then he can spend on just spawning, giving him the chance to play those mighty power cards, not to mention he will go through his deck often, taking 3 conquest tokens each time!)
- make sure that heroes with great(er) movement compensate those who don't have this. Meaning that they should open doors and reach out to the furthest away monsters, and running towards chests, potions, glyphs etc etc

d) That isn't the case i believe. It is a matter of getting the right experience, knowing how to play the most effecient (Which makes this game so interesting!)

Hope this helps a bit, and i'm curious on why you might think you might use wrong rules!

I totally agree with Big Remy. Players need to keep moving and pressing on. I've been guilty as a player, and my heroes were guilty when I was Overlord. "Let's spend this round in town and heal up." KISS OF DEATH! The longer the game goes, the more powerful the Overlord gets.

The unofficial Overlord theme song: "Time is on My Side".

My personal feelings are that the game is relatively balanced. I do not have ToI and have not played RoL yet.

As an OL I have won as many matches as I have lost. I think that while the two other expansions, AoD and WoD, have shifted the balance of the game towards the OL, I do not think that the OL is too strong. I think the expansions give flexibility to the OL that an experienced OL can capitalize on. To offset this flexibility we also have incorporated the RoL rule of "draw 3 choose 1" for players. Every body loves this because they can play the type of character they want and it has lead to some very close matches. One of our games was decided on a single die roll. (I the OL missed and the next turn the PH killed the boss, had I the OL hit I would have won.)

That being said, some PH want the kill... maybe they have played too much Diablo. Descent is NOT a Diablo clone, the PH do not gain experience for killing monsters. Descent is about picking up the minimum amount of loot to slay the big bad boss at the end of the dungeon as quickly as possible.