So I REALLY want to fly a Defender in the next tournament I play in. I'm torn between two builds:

Brath+HLC+Predator

or

Vessary+VI+HLC+EU

Brath, without any help, has more raw damage output potential. Vessary has more tricks up his sleeve. If another ship gets a TL on his target he could have both a TL and a Focus for his attack. That EU also helps him make the most of his K-turns.

Thoughts? Ideas?

I tend to prefer Brath to Vessery because he's PS8 without needing VI and I feel that he's more self sufficient that Vessery.

I had lots of fun with Brath, HLC and VI. That PS 10 makes Phantoms fell a little less Phantomy!

I tend to prefer Brath to Vessery because he's PS8 without needing VI and I feel that he's more self sufficient that Vessery.

And I tend to agree, but is Brath's ability (in a two ship build) more useful than being able to boost (as Vessery could).

I had lots of fun with Brath, HLC and VI. That PS 10 makes Phantoms fell a little less Phantomy!

I'm kicking around that idea too. A PS 10 Brath sounds scary as hell!

I actually think you have it backwards. Vessery does more damage, and Rexler is the tricky one. I categorically prefer Vessery except for Epic.

The question with Vessery in not what you will put on him. It is what you will surround him with. Start with him naked, build his support, and go from there. I generally advise against HLC. He will already be doing HLC levels of damage with a free TL, and the defender is extremely conducive to getting into and staying at range 1, making HLC a large point sink.

I actually think you have it backwards. Vessery does more damage, and Rexler is the tricky one. I categorically prefer Vessery except for Epic.

The question with Vessery in not what you will put on him. It is what you will surround him with. Start with him naked, build his support, and go from there. I generally advise against HLC. He will already be doing HLC levels of damage with a free TL, and the defender is extremely conducive to getting into and staying at range 1, making HLC a large point sink.

I know I'm going into a 60 minute per game format. It is VERY HARD to take down a Decimator in that time frame. I was thinking of running the Rear Admiral as my second ship and keeping Vessery or Rexler at range three. This way they get the extra defense dice and are rolling the extra red die from the HLC. If the Decimator is a closer and easier target, my opponents will shot at that instead.

Do you still favor Vessery without the HLC in this kind of build?

Having flown almost that exact same build several times, yes. I would rather have more upgrades available on the Decimator. The one game I tried running it with HLC, Vessery used the HLC once. Your mileage of course may vary, it will depend on the positioning, but generally I find Defenders close the distance fast (even fishtailing) and then stay close with the white K.

P.S. Lone wolf is nice on Vessery to help keep him alive in that setup.

Thanks for you input MajorJuggler. I'm going to need to run some test games to try a few ideas out. I've been so centered around that HLC, that I think I may have been overlooking other good ideas.

I run Vessery+HLC+VI rather frequently, but I've found a 3xDelta+Ion Cannon list to be fun.

The more I play with them, the more I prefer Vessery. But it really depends on what you fly with him.

The more ship that can take TL (Bombers are excellent fillers here for only 16pts), the more Vessery become unpredictable and that's what I like: TL 2-3 ships early on and your opponent won't be sure which one Vessery will target. A 3-4 dice with Focus and TL is a scary thing to face and the good thing is he doen't get a stress by doing it and if played right, can always have a sight on you with his fast speed, 1 bank or white k-turn. It puts your opponent in a situation where he needs to decide between getting rid of him, or the ships giving him the TLs. There is also no range for the ability to work so, you can use it to your advantage and flank him with the one he decide to ignore.

Brath is more all around. If you plan on pairing the Defender with ship that won't take a lot of TL (mini-swarm, interceptors), you're better with him. Don't count on his ability to trigger too much, it is more a bonus than something to base your strategy on. Some games it will wreck havoc, others it won't do a thing.

With the Rear Admiral, I would go with Vessery with Veteran Instinct and would include a Weapon Engineer on the Decimator. This way you give a second possible target to Vessery. Engine Upgrade is nice on the Defender, but I would only take it if there was nothing else to spend my points on. You plan on staying at range 3 so boosting just take you closer and being PS8, the highly maneuvrable ship will move after you so repositionning is not that important.

Something like this would be interesting to try:

Rear Admiral Chiraneau + VI + Ysanne + Gunner + Weapon Engineer + Engine Upgrade

Vessery + VI

99pts

Hadn't thought about the Weapon Engineer. Great suggestion!

I'm not sold on the EU on the Decimator, If you are constantly over shooting to keep from being blocked, it would be nice to correct heading or assist in quicker turnarounds.

The Engine Upgrade on the Decimator, especially at PS10, is to clear 1 or 2 line of sight, not being shot at with 0 agility can really save your skin. Having Weapon Engineer that allows you to take 2 TL at once, the natural focus of Chiraneau and gunner makes you less reliant on your actions for offense, which free it for the boost.

Of course a matter of taste, but I saw so many time Han or Chiraneau dodge arc because of a boost that it's now hard for me not to include it, just in case. Bonus utility: boosting into the range 1 hole of Dash for a 4 dice attack versus 0! Trollololol!

Jonus + two generics with hlc is terrifying if you dont mind the limited manuverability

I actually think you have it backwards. Vessery does more damage, and Rexler is the tricky one. I categorically prefer Vessery except for Epic.

The question with Vessery in not what you will put on him. It is what you will surround him with. Start with him naked, build his support, and go from there. I generally advise against HLC. He will already be doing HLC levels of damage with a free TL, and the defender is extremely conducive to getting into and staying at range 1, making HLC a large point sink.

If I'm looking at Vessery + VI, I'd rather spend another point to get Brath. I also usually don't fly many ships that can take target locks, and when I do I prefer taking a Focus action instead of a TLs. Taking Vessery means taking ships I wouldn't normally take or forgoing having focus tokens on the ones I do.

I'm sure that my preference for Focus over TL affects how useful I find Vessery.

Hadn't thought about the Weapon Engineer. Great suggestion!

I'm not sold on the EU on the Decimator, If you are constantly over shooting to keep from being blocked, it would be nice to correct heading or assist in quicker turnarounds.

Every time I have taken vessery I have used an ogp with st321 and a weapons engineer...fcs I'd I could hack the points...then you can have brassey target literally whatever he wants...

For me, the best upgrade to give to a TIE-D is an Engine Upgrade. It lets them actually be able to turn, and is STUPID good with their koiogran.

The Engine Upgrade on the Decimator, especially at PS10, is to clear 1 or 2 line of sight, not being shot at with 0 agility can really save your skin. Having Weapon Engineer that allows you to take 2 TL at once, the natural focus of Chiraneau and gunner makes you less reliant on your actions for offense, which free it for the boost. Of course a matter of taste, but I saw so many time Han or Chiraneau dodge arc because of a boost that it's now hard for me not to include it, just in case. Bonus utility: boosting into the range 1 hole of Dash for a 4 dice attack versus 0! Trollololol!

Nice idea but you can't boost into contact.

Plus good luck getting a large based ship into that doughnuts hole.

As for the defender I like Rex with predator and hlc. Treat his ability as a bonus not plan A.

Ves is great but you really need to build your list around his ability

I actually think you have it backwards. Vessery does more damage, and Rexler is the tricky one. I categorically prefer Vessery except for Epic.

The question with Vessery in not what you will put on him. It is what you will surround him with. Start with him naked, build his support, and go from there. I generally advise against HLC. He will already be doing HLC levels of damage with a free TL, and the defender is extremely conducive to getting into and staying at range 1, making HLC a large point sink.

If I'm looking at Vessery + VI, I'd rather spend another point to get Brath. I also usually don't fly many ships that can take target locks, and when I do I prefer taking a Focus action instead of a TLs. Taking Vessery means taking ships I wouldn't normally take or forgoing having focus tokens on the ones I do.

I'm sure that my preference for Focus over TL affects how useful I find Vessery.

Yeah, for 100 point play the only Defender that I think is worth taking is Vessery. His ability is flat-out better than Rexler's, if you have the squad for it. Assuming I already have the TL squad built around Vessery, even if I had the choice to "upgrade" to Rexler for 0 points I would personally still stick with Vessery.

The Engine Upgrade on the Decimator, especially at PS10, is to clear 1 or 2 line of sight, not being shot at with 0 agility can really save your skin. Having Weapon Engineer that allows you to take 2 TL at once, the natural focus of Chiraneau and gunner makes you less reliant on your actions for offense, which free it for the boost. Of course a matter of taste, but I saw so many time Han or Chiraneau dodge arc because of a boost that it's now hard for me not to include it, just in case. Bonus utility: boosting into the range 1 hole of Dash for a 4 dice attack versus 0! Trollololol!

Nice idea but you can't boost into contact.

Plus good luck getting a large based ship into that doughnuts hole.

As for the defender I like Rex with predator and hlc. Treat his ability as a bonus not plan A.

Ves is great but you really need to build your list around his ability

Range 1 is much larger than contact, and technically if by boosting I get into contact of Dash base, there is pretty good odds that I'm already into the hole. But if I'm at range 2, boosting can mean entering the range 1 zone.

As I said, bonus utility. Not the reason to take it.

The Engine Upgrade on the Decimator, especially at PS10, is to clear 1 or 2 line of sight, not being shot at with 0 agility can really save your skin. Having Weapon Engineer that allows you to take 2 TL at once, the natural focus of Chiraneau and gunner makes you less reliant on your actions for offense, which free it for the boost. Of course a matter of taste, but I saw so many time Han or Chiraneau dodge arc because of a boost that it's now hard for me not to include it, just in case. Bonus utility: boosting into the range 1 hole of Dash for a 4 dice attack versus 0! Trollololol!

Nice idea but you can't boost into contact.

Plus good luck getting a large based ship into that doughnuts hole.

As for the defender I like Rex with predator and hlc. Treat his ability as a bonus not plan A.

Ves is great but you really need to build your list around his ability

As someone that plays defenders alot I'd go for rexler every time, he's never let me down.

Great, Now I'm trying to figure out the best three ship build that includes at least one Defender...

Great, Now I'm trying to figure out the best three ship build that includes at least one Defender...

2 royal guards with targeting computers and vessery, season to taste, least until the advanced's get their fancy titles.

I have ran this list a few times, its not terrible but I wouldn't consider it competitive however...

Vessery (35)

+ VI (1)

Omicron (21)

+FCS (2)

+WE (3)

+ ST321 (3)

Mauler (17)

+ VI (1)

Backstabber (16)

Total : 99pts