It should be noted at some point that behind these words and text is a person. Within that person are feelings. Those feelings can be hurt. :'(

Since coming to these forums in search of help with some CharGen House Rules, I have been repeatedly insulted and mistreated despite making it a point to never be insulting towards anyone else (though at times I may have backlashed a little against those that were just plain ole mean to me). I understand that the House Rules were broken(ish), and despite my having listened to those who gave intelligent and non-insultive replies, and in the process having changed those CharGen house-rules to the 160/160 rules I've used, this has not lessened the insults being thrown at me.

I completely understand that I have a very different way of playing this game. I treat the Force as it is seen in the movies and novels, not as the purely mechanic entity it is in the game.

Note: I do not comment on the intelligent discourse some have provided, I value those and those are the reasons I stick around. Disagreeing with me is a bonus to my opinion of someone, as long as that disagreement is done via intelligent discourse. Disagreeing with me through insulting, degradation and defamation is usually ignored... the whole "turn the other cheek" thing. However, discussion isn't even being reached any more. With my latest thread of the Excel, I've been insulted twice now out of 2 replies. Once through the unnecessary use of the adjective "messed-up" and another declaring publicly that there's no way he'd download something I made.

It's compounded by the Like button where people are back patting these posts and the mean posts in other threads, cheering on those that are demeaning. It's a forum of bullies in which the "veterans" and loudest of the forums feel it's ok to bully the little guy. It should be noted that the loudest are rarely, if ever, the predominant of a group. While it is possible that my view on Force is the minority, it's more probable, in my opinion that many agree with it but didn't, or don't, see a way to do the mechanics of going Dark. There just aren't rules for pallid skin, sunken eyes, and emotional digression of someone who goes Dark. And the rules that do exist, the "strain", is pretty much the opposite of what Dark Force does in the movies/novels...

Not that the canon mechanics are wrong, but derogatorily attacking someone for playing "differently" is. Being just plain old mean, is just as wrong. I bring this up in hopes that people will see just how mean they've been on these forums. It's easy to get caught up in a crowd, and become something you never wanted to become, acceptance is a powerful tool. And of course, coercion/bullying is a similarly powerful tool, which when applied likely causes those that thrive on acceptance to change course in an effort to gain acceptance. I don't really succumb to peer pressure though, I succumb to intelligence. One shouldn't have to rake through the useless and insulting posts to try and find something useful and thoughtful.

That being said, while I did not make the excel for the purpose of having more insults thrown my way, I also didn't make it to gain acceptance. It's there to give people a tool they can use, and when completed, will be a powerful gaming tool for this game. And yes... it's an excel, by its very nature, it is easily configurable to accommodate house rules, including my own.

I will likely regret this but here goes...

1) I appreciate you trying to give us something with the Chargen thing, I do. Problem is, there's a jaw-droppingly-good, professional-looking utility given to us free by OggDude already, which is probably why you didn't get many comments.

2) Your table, your rules, nobody has ever said anything to the contrary there. But FFG made a design choice to offer Dark Side as an option, so most people will be okay with the fairly minor drawbacks they mention. Most found your approach heavy-handed, with you apparently making a PC into a child-killer just for using some Dark Side pips.

3) Even in this post, you do come across as very defensive. Plenty of people, I feel, tried to engage with you but your attitude was confrontational. Maybe you could try to express yourself in a less adversarial manner?

4) You can play with whatever House Rules you wish, I know I do. But if you put them in a public forum, expect people to disagree with you. The more you change the baseline - and all of your rules were way out there in that regard - the more people will disagree. Most people feel FFG actually made a well-balanced game here, one which requires minimal house ruling.

5) I think you'd get a bit more respect if you read the Core Rules rather than just the Beta. It's a very different game now. Then come back and engage politely in an exchange of views on the board. Most people here are decent, which isn't something you can say about a lot of forums. But unfortunately, the way you come across, you seem like 'it's all about me'.

That's my 2 pence, make of it what you will.

1) I've always tried to attack the idea, never the person. That's just rule one for ANY of my internet dealings, be it here, reddit, slashdot, gawker or what have you. If I crossed that line - and hey, we're only human, it happens - then I apologize.

1.5) And yes, some of the jabs were very unwarranted. (although to be fair, the first thought that crossed my mind on seeing your spreadsheet thread was also "I wonder what version of the rules he's using?")

2) I guess my point of frustration - paraphrased from one of the other threads - was the stubborn resolution to cling to the beta rules without ever glancing at the (vastly different) Gold Version, and then calling us wrong for our advice. Yes, I'm an idiot and often speak out of my ass - but not only blowing off all of the vets (which is fine - you are free to ignore any advice given) but calling The Collective straight out wrong? You can surely see how that might come across as arrogant.

Its your table, your game - do as you please. If you want to play a Toon/Cyberpunk mashup with lightsabers, knock yourself out. It matters to me not.

Gryph I had no dog in this hunt and had to read through past threads you were involved in (I apparently wasn't) to see what this was all about. My opinions follow since you made a post here. I'm a veteran of this forum, please don't hold it against me.

Starting from present and going backwards through your posts, there WERE some pretty hateful responses that I didn't understand. I'm not going to name anyone. I then researched further back because those that made those responses don't typically react so. What caused such negative reaction?

Looking further back, it seems you rubbed many people the wrong way. I don't put all of the blame in your court since there was lots of rubbing back and forth. You have already laid blame on them. I'm just pointing out that some of the blame lies with your own posts. You asked for opinions, then weren't exactly friendly when you received said opinions that weren't all "backpatting".

Examples:

You and the others can rant as long as they and you want, about broke levels, but unless you actually show how things are skewed, it's just hot air.

I am not "looking" for anything.......My only reason for continuing to post on this thread is because people like you keep, wrongly, saying that my system is broken. If you are going to keep being wrong, I will keep trying to enlighten you.

Btw, everyone agreeing with each other doesnt make them all right, it just makes them great at backpatting.

Do you even actually play the game? ............ You think being a "Veteran" with hundreds of posts on a forum makes you some expert?

Why the frak do I have to keep justifying myself to you types? ....;. I could really care less about your broken opinion on my game.

Those aren't exactly friendly responses. So, you share some blame in receiving said, "bullying".

Bullying? Here's an example:

@XXXXX: Your reading skills are lacking...

And finally,

@XXXXXX: Yes I can (though I could careless if there's negative feedback).

You apparently do care if there is negative feedback. It's very obvious from the posts of yours I just read through. You seem to have gotten very upset at the negative feedback.

Gryph, there were some juvenile responses to your posts. But, there is something you must consider. There are many, many threads created on this forum regarding rule change discussions that didn't spiral into such negativity. I would ask myself why my threads were different before making another thread placing all of the blame on others.

Edit: That's about 30 minutes I will never get back.

One shouldn't have to rake through the useless and insulting posts to try and find something useful and thoughtful.

Unfortunately, when on a public forum, what you describe in the quoted sentence is the norm. For that matter, I've seen much the same on professional boards where there are much higher standards for participation. In part this is because what is "useful and thoughtful" is rather subjective (people tend to believe that their own statements have greater value than others ascribe to them).

OTOH, yes some posters do get deliberately insulting at times. If this bothers you, I suggest using the forum's ignore feature for them,

It should be noted at some point that behind these words and text is a person. Within that person are feelings. Those feelings can be hurt. :'(

It's too bad it degenerated like it did, and yes, some comments, especially in new threads you started, were harsh or juvenile. But I think you need to take some responsibility, which I don't see you doing here at all. You dished out quite a bit before receiving the worst of it, but that's how these things go...things kind of escalate to a point of no return, and now attitudes are in a particular state.

If you're not ready to accept your own part in this then there isn't much more to say. You need to change the temperature yourself, but these kinds of posts don't really help. Probably the best thing you can do is continue to post and ask/answer questions, avoid belligerence, and eventually things will cool down.

Gryph, you are right about the post I made on the Excel thread. That was mean and I'm sorry about it.

There was nothing wrong with what you posted there and I was a jerk for piling on in that case. I apologize.

"It takes two to tango"

A relevant quote for the discussion here. I saw the topics in question, and my opinion of them was that they became trainwrecks. As others have said, this forum is generally a positive place, and constructive. But if people offering input are basically told "you're wrong" and then disregarding their input, it changes their attitudes and will cause the bullying-type responses.

I suppose my point is this: people lashed out at both sides, because of perceived attitudes, frustrations and behaviors. No one person was singularly wronged, and hopefully this is the point where one can reflect on themselves and their actions and see the other side.

OTOH, yes some posters do get deliberately insulting at times. If this bothers you, I suggest using the forum's ignore feature for them,

This is the best advice you can take.

Probably the best thing you can do is continue to post and ask/answer questions, avoid belligerence, and eventually things will cool down.

There you go, best advice thus far. Come join in some of the other conversations. Tell us the best way you deal with failed rolls with triumph, gripe (or gush) about Rebels, go complain that FFG hasn't released a Imperial Campaign Sourcebook yet. The best way into the community is go be part of the community - meanwhile all this nonsense will blow over, in time.

I'm a "veteran" of about two weeks on this forum. Hmmm, maybe three. To be frank, this forum is the most civil, helpful, and accepting forum I have seen. I'm sorry you didn't get the same reception I did, but before you start spewing vitriol over the entire forum membership you might want to back up and examine what may have triggered that kind of negative response. Was it just a few people who often post that way? Was something you posted typically responded to negatively elsewhere when someone else posted it?

I can guarantee that pointing fingers and casting blame won't resolve the situation positively. This forum is a community, and membership in any kind of community involves compromise. I'd suggest evaluating whether the good in this community is worth any changes you might need to make to more smoothly integrate in it.

I was harsh in the Dark side topic, I take responsibility for that and it probably was unbecoming. But (you knew it was coming) I at that time was absolutely convinced you were winding people up.

To me it seemed a joke that someone who had no idea how the final game played nor had read the rules could be so beligerent, obtuse and snarky towards people that were trying to explain what they thought was wrong with the way you were going about it, or why they had no interest in playing the game that way. The example of the mentally scared and physically traumatizee four year old being used as a deus ex machina to punish a player seemed to me, at the time, as a continuation of said wind up, especially when you combined that with "as per the rules".

It went even further when you started telling people that that way of playing was a better way and eventhough you asked for feedback you were not interested in it at all.

I remember asking out loud "I wonder what madness tomorrow will bring?" Because I was convinced you were not serious.

Then your excel file came up and I figured to just drop it, I wondered how someone who doesn't know the basic rules a d goes about chargen so differently can build such a tool and decided to skip looking at the final product, especially since those tools were already there to begin with.

So, in hindsight I might have responded in a somewhat hyperbolic manner to your posts in earlier topics and I appologize for that. I thought you weren't serious and I am pretty sure I wasn't alone.

I'm Surprised, And Pleased You Started This Topic to Help Air Out The Laundry, Sort Of Speak.

As For What Happened On The Excel Post I Can't Say. I Am Not A Fan Of The Excel Program, And Like Most Of Us Here, I Use Oggdads Program.Im Happy With It And Have No Desire To Change, So I Haven't Been Keeping Up On It. However, On Your House Rules Posts, I Can, Having Been Involved In That Topic.

I Believe That I Had Limited My Posts To Talking About Your Ideas, For The Most Part. If It Came Across I Was Attacking You, I Apologize. That Was Never My Intention. However, I Will Talk About What I Noticed, That Is What This Topic Is For.

On Your Very First Post, You Insulted Us. That Our Games Were Not Cinematic Enough to Handle Your House Rules. This Also Implies We Aren't Good Enough Gms To Understand TheM. From Your First Post On It, You Set Off In An Aggressive Rout. Then When We Said This Was A Bad Idea Using Mechanics And XP Costs And Game Design Ideas You'd Response Was To Ignore Us, Close Your Eyes, Plug Your Ears, And Say ",LA LA LA LA LA. YOU'RE WRONG, I'M RIGHT" This After Coming To Is For Our Advice. Can You Understand Some Of Our Attitudes After That. Yes, Some Of It Crosses The Line, But From Your Very First Post, You Did Not Help The Situation. When People Who Have Run This Game Since Its Initial Release AndPeople Who Have Worked In This Vandal Agree That Your Rules Break This Game, And Provide The Mechanics If How, Your Response Shouldn't Be, "Shut Up, You're Wrong." Even Worse, You Condemned Us Corp Agreeing On That, By Saying We Were Doing Nothing But Backpatting, Web All We Wanted To Do Was Help Your Game.

This Wasn't Majority Rules, It Was Years Of Experience People Who Tinker With The System, And In SSome Cases Make New OnesOne Of The Writers Themselves You Were Ignoring And Fighting Against, After Saying, "I Want Your aAdvice But You're Not As Good As Me."

You Should Expect Pushback When You Come In With This Kind Of Attitude.

I had no dog in this hunt

What a great phrase! Ima use it!

I'm Surprised, And Pleased You Started This Topic to Help Air Out The Laundry, Sort Of Speak.

As For What Happened On The Excel Post I Can't Say. I Am Not A Fan Of The Excel Program, And Like Most Of Us Here, I Use Oggdads Program.Im Happy With It And Have No Desire To Change, So I Haven't Been Keeping Up On It. However, On Your House Rules Posts, I Can, Having Been Involved In That Topic.

I Believe That I Had Limited My Posts To Talking About Your Ideas, For The Most Part. If It Came Across I Was Attacking You, I Apologize. That Was Never My Intention. However, I Will Talk About What I Noticed, That Is What This Topic Is For.

On Your Very First Post, You Insulted Us. That Our Games Were Not Cinematic Enough to Handle Your House Rules. This Also Implies We Aren't Good Enough Gms To Understand TheM. From Your First Post On It, You Set Off In An Aggressive Rout. Then When We Said This Was A Bad Idea Using Mechanics And XP Costs And Game Design Ideas You'd Response Was To Ignore Us, Close Your Eyes, Plug Your Ears, And Say ",LA LA LA LA LA. YOU'RE WRONG, I'M RIGHT" This After Coming To Is For Our Advice. Can You Understand Some Of Our Attitudes After That. Yes, Some Of It Crosses The Line, But From Your Very First Post, You Did Not Help The Situation. When People Who Have Run This Game Since Its Initial Release AndPeople Who Have WorkOn It Agree That Your Rules Break This Game, And Provide The Mechanics If How, Your Response Shouldn't Be, "Shut Up, You're Wrong." Even Worse, You Condemned Us Corp Agreeing On That, By Saying We Were Doing Nothing But Backpatting, Web All We Wanted To Do Was Help Your Game.

This Wasn't Majority Rules, It Was Years Of Experience People Who Tinker With The System, And In SSome Cases Make New OnesOne Of The Writers Themselves You Were Ignoring And Fighting Against, After Saying, "I Want Your aAdvice But You're Not As Good As Me."

You Should Expect Pushback When You Come In With This Kind Of Attitude.

There are a few on here I could point out. Problem is...the Internet. Everyone has an opinion and everyone thinks they are the ones that are right.

I had no dog in this hunt

What a great phrase! Ima use it!

Actually it's not mine and I screwed it up by combining two different phrases. I guess it still works though?

"I had no dog in this fight" is the actual term. As in, I wasn't in the fight, didn't care the outcome. The phrase I combined it with was probably, "That dog won't hunt", meaning whatever is being asked/discussed/attempted isn't going to work.

But who knows, perhaps my new hybrid will catch on? Or, "I had no Rancor in this fight", or "That Dewback won't hunt".

"I had no dog in this fight" is the actual term.

The Michael Vick defense?

Actually after going through the original threads yesterday, reading your op here again just now and eyeing the fact that you again have not reacted to any of the feedback that you have gotten here eventhough you have been on these boards in the mean time, I simply cannot shake the feeling that you are not being honest in your posts. It just seems a bit too much like trolling to all of a sudden toss this pity grenade after your earlier antagonistic behaviour and then just watch what unfolds afterward from the side line. I'm not buying it.

I'm always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, with Net Lag and all - but boy, that does smack of trolling - or at least not exactly wanting to play nice with the others - doesn't it? Don't want to have a discourse? I've said my peace - it's on you now. Meanwhile, welcome to the ignore list - at least until I see evidence to the otherwise.

Meanwhile, welcome to the ignore list - at least until I see evidence to the otherwise.

Having some experience with managing an ignore list, I suggest assigning membership to an ignore list with a set length (I prefer 3 months) since, if you're actually ignoring them, it's pretty unlikely that you'll see evidence to sway you that they should come off the list.

I'm just going to come out say it.

We are all so sorry that we can not see your inherent genius and appreaciate you for the unique snowflake that you are.

If you feel like you are being "bullied", perhaps you need to buy this great new invention. I know it's new, but you can get them about anywhere, it's called a mirror.

Going back and reading through your threads, I seriously feel that you are the one that started the bullying. Here is a great comment from you:

I am not "looking" for anything. I said "Thank you", and finalized our char gen a couple of pages back. My only reason for continuing to post on this thread is because people like you keep, wrongly, saying that my system is broken. If you are going to keep being wrong, I will keep trying to enlighten you.

You can keep going on about how overpowering it is, but you are simply wrong, and if you took the 30 seconds it would take to think up a 160 point characteristic character (or force at double the cost), you would hopefully see just how crazy wrong you are.

Btw, everyone agreeing with each other doesnt make them all right, it just makes them great at backpatting.

I can't understand how you would not expect irritated comebacks at you. This is just one of many. Sturn already pulled most of your best quotes, so no need to do that agin, but here is my favorite from you:

[quote name="Domingo" post="1401788" timestamp="1421012334"

@Daeglan: Sorry, but you are just wrong. It's great that you have an opinion, but it's just an opinion. Maybe it is "too cheap" for your games, but not for mine. Nothing is broken except your sense in thinking that games not like yours are.

But here is the prime example of YOUR bullying.

@R2Builder

As long as people are stating that my system is broken, I will defend it. Commenting that you just wish I'd shut up (instead of just shutting up yourself and letting the thread die), while tagging along some derogatory implications is just annoying.

In that old thread I never once told you to "shut up" or to quit posting. I never said anything degrogatory to you up until that time. My threads were not directed at you, they were directed to my fellow forum members to stop arguing with you.

All you want to do is argue about that you are right and everyone else is wrong, even go go so far as t say this whole community is wrong...? Wow. Ok.

Just re-reading through your train wrecks, I find it very ironic that you can post this advice but not heed or understand it yourself.

It should be noted at some point that behind these words and text is a person. Within that person are feelings. Those feelings can be hurt. :'(

You reap what you sow.

I read "mirror" as "minor" (old age is hell on the eyes) and got a good chuckle at the idea that you could get a kid to compensate for being bullied.

Having some experience with managing an ignore list, I suggest assigning membership to an ignore list with a set length (I prefer 3 months) since, if you're actually ignoring them, it's pretty unlikely that you'll see evidence to sway you that they should come off the list.

You know, I put someone on ignore and then I see that big ol' "You are ignoring this user. Click here to see the message" and I'm always "Oh geez - I wonder what train wreck they have to say this time!" and inevitably wind up clicking anyway.

So really all I'm doing is making extra work for myself.

No one said that walking the path of Ignore is easy!