I have Pentos in play and Dragon Bite on one of my non-Dragon character, let's say Dany.

I initiate a challenge and declare Dany as an attacker.

Then my opponent kneels Old Nan to give Dany the Dragon trait. So Dany should die.

I can use Pentos ability and discard Dragon Bite to save Dany, right? This will remove Dany from terminal state, so it is legal to save her this way.

But what will happen if the Pentos ability is cancelled ?

On one hand Dragon Bite has been discarded to pay the cost of Pentos ability, so Dany is not in a terminal state anymore.

On the other hand the Dragon Bite kill effect has been initiated and the save has been cancelled so I would say that Dany must still die.

Is this right?

Comm said:

Actually, no. When you discard the attachment to pay the cost of Pentos, the attachment becomes moribund and remains on the table through the end of the action window. Since it is still physically on the table and affecting the game, the constant effect is still "turned on." So Dany is not removed from the terminal state because the attachment effect is still there and working.

Comm said:

See above. The attachment is still there due to moribund and Dany has not been removed from the terminal effect created by the attachment's effect.

Is it possible for you Ktom to post us the framework of the actions from the Old Nan capacity activated to the death of Dany?

fabest said:

Sure. Couple of things to keep in mind here:

a. When a card is in play at the beginning of an action window (Step 1) and made to leave play (killed, discarded, returned to hand, etc.) for any reason, it does not physically leave play until the end of that action window (Step 6) - and continues to affect the game until then. It doesn't matter whether a card is removed from play as cost, by an effect, or anything in-between. If it starts out in play and is removed from play, it goes through the "moribund" state.

b. Passives and Responses happen as part or other action windows; they do not open action windows of their own.

c. A "Terminal Effect" is a game state in which an effect will remove a card from play - and will still be valid after the card is saved. If a card is subject to a terminal effect, it cannot be saved unless that save would simultaneously remove the card from the terminal state.

So, the situation: Dany has Dragon Bite attached and has been declared as an attacker. Pentos is in play. Another player has Old Nan in play and decides to use her ability to take advantage of Dragon Bite. (This can happen in either the Player Action opportunity after attackers are declared and before stealth is assigned/defenders are declared or the Player Action opportunity after stealth/defenders and before challenge resolution.) Using Old Nan makes the following sequence happen:

Step 1: Initiate - This is where Old Nan's effect is activated. The Stark player must pay the costs (kneel Old Nan), check any play restrictions, choose a target (in this case, Dany), and name a trait (Dragon) to be added or removed (in this case, added).

Step 2: Save/Cancel - This is where all players have an opportunity (starting to the left of the Stark player and going clockwise from there) to use an applicable effect to "save" the target from Old Nan's ability (no such effect exists) or to "cancel" the effects of Old Nan's ability. We'll assume that none is played (they are kind of rare in LCG).

Step 3: Resolution - This is where Old Nan's effect resolves (assuming the target was not saved and the effect was not canceled in Step 2) and Dany officially becomes a "Dragon."

Step 4: Passives - If there are any effects that are activated automatically (whether a player wants it to or not) by something in Steps 1-3 above (Old Nan kneeling, the Stark player activating a character ability, Dany having the Dragon trait, etc), the impact is figured out here. For simplicity, we'll assume that Dragon Bite is the only one, but if there were more, they would follow the general pattern below:

Step 4I: Initiate Passive - This is where Dragon Bite, recognizing that its play restrictions are met and that the attached character (Dany) is participating (attacking) in a challenge with a Dragon character (herself), activates. As noted in the original question, the "at any time" wording of Dragon Bite qualifies it as a terminal effect. It will continue killing Dany so long as the attachment effect is in play and she is participating in a challenge with a Dragon character.

Step 4II: Save/Cancel Passive - This is where all players have an opportunity (starting to the left of the Stark player and going clockwise from there) to use an applicable effect to "save" Dany from the attachment ability, or to somehow cancel it. Remeber (as mentioned in "c" above) that a character can only be saved from a terminal effect if it is removed from the terminal state at the same time.

The temptation is to use Pentos here. The reasoning is that by discarding the attachment from Dany as part of the cost of Pentos, she is removed from the terminal state because once discarded, the attachment is no longer affecting her. This turns out not to be true, though. As mentioned in "a" above, discarding Dragon Bite at this point to pay the cost of Pentos makes it "moribund." It will physically stay on the table until this action window closes in Step 6. Therefore, even though it has been discarded, it will still be around and affecting Dany though the rest of Step 4, Step 5 and into Step 6. The whole "at any time" thing is still true because Dany is still attacking and still a Dragon. Therefore, even though the attachment is on the way out, it continues trying to kill Dragon-Dany until it is completely gone. Thus, she would not be removed from the terminal state and using Pentos to both save Dany and discard Dragon Bite at the same time would be an illegal move.

Step 4III: Resolve Passive - Assuming that an effect that both saved Dany and removed her from Dragon Bite's terminal effect at the same time was not found, Dany officially dies here and becomes "moribund" herself. (Note, she stays on the table and retains her status as "attacking" and "Dragon" until the close of the action window.

(Keep in mind that any passive effects activated anything that happened in Steps 4I-III will be activated in their own "Step 4I" now.)

Step 5: Responses - This is where any "Response" effect (other than those that contain the words "save" or "cancel") that a player wants to use can be played. Since this is a Player Action window, the player to the left of the Stark player (who started this action window by using Old Nan) has the first opportunity to play a Response, then players take turns going clockwise until no one has any more Responses that they want to play. Note that Responses to anything that has happened earlier in the window (Old Nan kneeling, the Stark player triggering a character ability, Dany gaining the Dragon trait, Dany being killed, etc.) are valid and can be played in any order.

Step 6: End - Once there are no further Responses, the Action Window ends and any moribund cards (like Dany) are physically put into the out-of-play area (like the dead pile) that were sent to. At this point, they finally stop affecting the game.

It's long, but hopefully it makes some sense.

It makes perfect sense... and I don't like it at all. I agree with it of course, I just don't like it. This is one of those cases where the rules just feel wrong so strongly I want to argue against them.

Thanks a lot Ktom

Yes, thanks ktom. I've been caught by this moribund-thing again. Hopefully I will remember it... one day.

Read this topic and sorry still dont understand clearly how Dragon Bite works.

So i ask question, maybe answer will help me to understand this

Opponent is declared attacker who has Dragon Bite attached. I declare dragon to defend. Will character dies immedetly and challenge will be over without any winners?
How about then if attacker has deadly, will deadly work and i must kill my dragon due i hade less deadly characters in this challenge?

Morghat said:

Your answer is a fairly simple one - have a look at the FAQ flowchart for "Challenges phase"

What happens here is you declare a defender, ending the framework action. Then all responses/passives which are triggered by the framework action come in to place, in this case Dragon's Bite. The character then dies BEFORE the next set of framework actions (Determining the winner of the challenge), so your opponent's deadly would be irrelevant (it triggers after the framework window which ends with "Characters claim renown"). He dies, in fact, before any opportunity for player actions (the white box).

You would still win the challenge, because it was initiated, and your strength (your dragon's) is greater than the attacker's strength (0, at the time strength is counted).

Morghat said:

Morghat said:

As long as there are participating characters the challenge does not end. In this scenario, the defending player would be about to win the challenge because there are no attacking characters anymore (0 STR) and the Dragon has, let's say, 3 STR.

Deadly is checked during the resolution of the challenge. If the Deadly character was removed from the challenge and is not there during the resolution, there are no Deadly characters attacking. Thus, the defending player does not have to kill the defending Dragon.

Morghat said:

There are still participating characters in the challenge (your dragon), so you go through the rest of the challenge (player action window after declaring defenders and then resolving the challenge in the next framework action window). Unless your defending character is somehow removed from the challenge before the resolution, or has 0 strength, you will win the challenge.

As for deadly, you only resolve deadly as the appropriate framework event during challenge resolution. Since there are no participating attacking characters during challenge resolution, you don't have any deadly to contend with. When a character is removed from the challenge, there is no memory of them ever participating -- their "deadly" doesn't somehow "linger" on after the character is gone.

EDIT: Argh - double post. (Hehe, Elo and I posted almost identical replies)

When resolving responses, if the first player who has the opportunity to play responses has more than one, can he/she activate them all, or has he/she to activate one and then wait until the clockwise turn comes again to play another oen?

Saturnine said:

Man, I feel we're almost the same person living in different places

nikotina said:

He must activate one, then wait for his turn to play another one (from the FAQ):

Action/Response options always continue clockwise in this fashion until all players consecutively pass.

nikotina said:

When resolving responses, if the first player who has the opportunity to play responses has more than one, can he/she activate them all, or has he/she to activate one and then wait until the clockwise turn comes again to play another oen?

He must activate one, then wait for his turn to play another one (from the FAQ):

Action/Response options always continue clockwise in this fashion until all players consecutively pass.

Also, keep in mind that the First Player does not always have the first opportunity to play responses. He/she only gets the first opportunity to play responses to framework actions. The player to the left of the player who initiated a non-framework effect gets to respond to said effect first, even if he/she is not the First Player.

Yes, I know. That was why I wrote "the first player who gets an opportunity..." and not just "the first player".

Thanks!

eloooooooi said:

Man, I feel we're almost the same person living in different places

For me, it's the same with him. I guess he's something like a real life version of FTC Jaqen or something.

Saturnine

Smart ass. Rules Nerd.

s2

STR 0

No icons.

Response: After a question has been answered on the Rules Board, pay the rest of Saturnine's gold cost and bring him out of Shadows. Then, copy the given answer verbatim. If the answer is not amended by ktom until the end of the phase, return Saturnine to Shadows. Otherwise, kill him.

Ratatoskr said:

I'm just going to keep dying a lot, aren't I? When does ktom ever not amend something?

Saturnine said:

I'm just going to keep dying a lot, aren't I? When does ktom ever not amend something?

Depends on your definition of "amend." Most of the time these days, I'm either answering a part of the question that went unanswered, clarifying the original question, or saying something along the lines of "right answer, easier explanation."

Heck, the most common reason I "amend" is because the person answering the questions says "I don't know if this is correct, but (right answer)." My basic job around here seems to be "confidence booster."