I guess you may not agree but...

How about option H):

You can't do a barrel roll action if you have decloaked this turn.

I think this would make it "hard" to kill it for non-turreted, low-ps ships, instead of "impossible"

how about option G: make decloak an action. you can either do it after you move, or use AS and do it first. more options in some ways, but less action economy and some tougher choices.

Because now acd doesn't work at all (which is something I know many people want). What if you simply wanted to reposition and use your action to recloak? If we were to implement this suggestion then the phantom should be allowed to fire while cloaked which would be at the very least unfluffy...

why doesn't it work? cloaking and de-cloaking are still different actions. you can move, decloak, fire and then recloak with ACD. you just don't get yet another action to make you even deadlier.

how about option G: make decloak an action. you can either do it after you move, or use AS and do it first. more options in some ways, but less action economy and some tougher choices.

Because now acd doesn't work at all (which is something I know many people want). What if you simply wanted to reposition and use your action to recloak? If we were to implement this suggestion then the phantom should be allowed to fire while cloaked which would be at the very least unfluffy...

why doesn't it work? cloaking and de-cloaking are still different actions. you can move, decloak, fire and then recloak with ACD. you just don't get yet another action to make you even deadlier.

You are correct...I forgot acd listed it as a free action...my bad.

There is nothing wrong with the Phantom. Just because its popular and good doesn't mean it needs to be fixed.

As stated in my original post, no one is saying that it is broken. Just, hypothetically, would you still use it if it were tweaked? Though there is some disagreement on which (or any) of the sample changes would be tolerated, it appears that the answer is "yes," people would still use it if "reduced" somehow. I just find it interesting.

The suggestion to make the decloak action happen first (prior to any activations) is also interesting to me.

They're just vulnerable to turrets, because 360 "arcs" are stupid

I don't understand this sentiment. Turreted ships go a long way toward balancing the game despite what some people believe. The most viable lists would be made entirely out of Tie Phantoms, Tie Interceptors and Jake Farrell if turrets didn't exist.

They're just vulnerable to turrets, because 360 "arcs" are stupid

I don't understand this sentiment. Turreted ships go a long way toward balancing the game despite what some people believe. The most viable lists would be made entirely out of Tie Phantoms, Tie Interceptors and Jake Farrell if turrets didn't exist.

If by "balancing" you mean neutering.

Primary turrets single handedly ousted on fell interceptors from the table, so much so that ffg is finally addressing the problem ala thrusters.

Phatoms had the problem addressed with ACD and +2 agility, which some view as excessive but which are sadly necessary to survive when maneuverability is completely negated.

I wouldn't say turrets are overpowered on the whole, but the degree to which they make maneuvering pointless is pretty "stupid" in my book

First off; Tie Interceptors have never existed in a game state without turrets. Second; The game has always had turrets.

My current favorite lists are Decimator + Phantom and Dash + Corran. Why choose one, when you can have both and shore up the weaknesses of the other.

"You got peanut butter in my chocolate!" and all that.

here is the problem with the phantom....

it was costed based on the cloak action making it only fire every other turn. ADC gets rid of this limitation.

it has a hard counter in turret ships.

so against turrets...it is not worth the cost. but against everything else, it is worth twice what you pay. It is simply a ship that cannot be balanced.

it has also shifted the meta away from swarms, witch is the turrets main weakness....so turrets are now considered OP because they live in a world with no natural enemies.

not sure how to fix the phantom, and I do like the ship. Just thought I would throw in my thoughts on what the actual problem is.

I would go with a: 3 attack.

and a new option: When cloaked you cannot take any actions, except decloak. (Decloak cost and action).

This allows it to be good, but not super. Must more capable to play against.

I think it would be interesting for ACD to remove an elite talent slot (so it doesn't affect the generics). ACD is an auto-include. This change would make it more of an interesting choice.

I think it would be interesting for ACD to remove an elite talent slot (so it doesn't affect the generics). ACD is an auto-include. This change would make it more of an interesting choice.

If this happened you would have a ACD and Advanced Senor Phantom. That would be crazy!

Honestly, Making Decloak an action goes a long way to balancing this ship. Even with the 4 attack. This way you get no focus action and decloak.

The best fix would be 3 attack and Decloak is an action.

I love playing the phantom. The only way I would consider still flying them would be the 1 movement instead of 2 for decloak. If you drop the attack dice to 3 or some of the other suggestions, it crushes it and makes it not worth the points. It seems that many people posting on this are people who just hate the phantom and want it gone. You could say the same about fat falcons. Both ships are beatable. Specifically the phantom, how many times do the green dice fail and it is killed in one shot. Add in the stress factor and other ways to counter ACD, higher PS or roark, it is fine the way it is. S&V is going to shake up the meta already. Wait for the dust to settle before trying to 'fix' things that really are not broken.

Well. I have to sad this once again. People who think it is not broken, do not do the math. When a 40 point ship can destroy nearly double it's points without a scratch, there is something wrong with game balance.

The designers all but stated they missed it a bit and thought it might be a little bit over the top when they were interviewed about it.

People are using a Hypothetical situation, Decloak should be an action. That would go along way to fixing the issue. Are you telling me you wouldn't play the phantom if you had to use decloak as an action.

That tells me you really are probably not a good pilot. Even with Decloak as an action, the phantom is still the best ship in the game, but at least it's not totally off the charts and would require some skill to fly it well. Right now anyone with a little bit of practice and a VI on the high pilot skill phantoms with ACD can instantly become one of the best players in the game. Because the phantom as it is breaks too many base abilities. 4 defense and 4 attack, Incredible movement, the ability to take crew and systems, to make it that much better.

I love when people say it's not broken, because all of the good players know it is, and admit it.

I thought the falcon was the best/most broken ship in the game....that's the one I hear the most complaining about...

I think it would be interesting for ACD to remove an elite talent slot (so it doesn't affect the generics). ACD is an auto-include. This change would make it more of an interesting choice.

If this happened you would have a ACD and Advanced Senor Phantom. That would be crazy!

Honestly, Making Decloak an action goes a long way to balancing this ship. Even with the 4 attack. This way you get no focus action and decloak.

The best fix would be 3 attack and Decloak is an action.

Right, but the maximum PS on any phantom would be 6, right? That is a pretty huge nerf. I like the prospect of having decloak being an action a lot as well, however, so +1 to that.

Option D: Put Veteran Instincts and Advanced Cloaking Device on the restricted list, making Whisper and Echo easier to deal with, and slows down the bit to get as high as PS as possible.

That would just cause people to use other dangerous EPTs on phantoms if they couldn't put VI on it. Outmanuver, predator,..... all not to great for those getting attacked

But ACD becomes less of a threat if Echo and Whisper are stuck at PS 6 and 7. You also open up the number of ships that will be able to react to them without depending on Veteran Instincts.

The real question is do you think an equal point turret ship can fight against an equal point phantom. I fly against phantoms and they are pretty annoying, but there are ways to play around them by limiting their choices to decloak, so you can keep them in your arcs. I don't feel they need a nerf since you get what you pay for.

I think the designers didn't make echo/whisper a higher PS to balance them. I mean even though you can take VI and should, 9's can keep initiative on them and 8+ with VI. It just forced the meta to use turrets that could fire first/higher PS so you can hit them before they recloak.

If Decloak became an action, its unmodified 4 dice attack would be as good as a modified 2 dice attack. If it was also reduced to 3 attack, it would be like rolling a modified 1.5 dice. Add to this, that aside from Whisper w/ VI and ACD, the Phantom only shoots every other turn. It would become terrible and almost unusable unless it had a huge point drop.

There is absolutely nothing broken about the Phantom on its own, not even Echo and Whisper. There is nothing broken about ACD (its almost useless on the generics and pretty bad in the current meta on the elites on its own). It is only the combination of the elites, VI, and ACD brought together under one roof that creates any sort of issue.

Well. I have to sad this once again. People who think it is not broken, do not do the math. When a 40 point ship can destroy nearly double it's points without a scratch, there is something wrong with game balance.

The designers all but stated they missed it a bit and thought it might be a little bit over the top when they were interviewed about it.

People are using a Hypothetical situation, Decloak should be an action. That would go along way to fixing the issue. Are you telling me you wouldn't play the phantom if you had to use decloak as an action.

That tells me you really are probably not a good pilot. Even with Decloak as an action, the phantom is still the best ship in the game, but at least it's not totally off the charts and would require some skill to fly it well. Right now anyone with a little bit of practice and a VI on the high pilot skill phantoms with ACD can instantly become one of the best players in the game. Because the phantom as it is breaks too many base abilities. 4 defense and 4 attack, Incredible movement, the ability to take crew and systems, to make it that much better.

I love when people say it's not broken, because all of the good players know it is, and admit it.

If whisper could be ps10 or 11, I might actually agree with you. The fact that it has changed the meta, does not make it broken. Do you think fat falcon is broken, like the list that won worlds? Or is it more that it is really good players flying it? I have to politely disagree that anyone can fly the phantom well. Additionally, anyone with higher PS can easily hunt down a phantom. I have flown horn with VI and boost and cut down both echo and whisper at a winter tournament. Phantoms have altered the meta, same as Dash and fat falcons. Will say it again, changing the meta doesn't make it broken. The fact that you may struggle to beat it doesn't make it broken. Plenty of lists/ships can defeat a phantom.

If Decloak became an action, its unmodified 4 dice attack would be as good as a modified 2 dice attack. If it was also reduced to 3 attack, it would be like rolling a modified 1.5 dice. Add to this, that aside from Whisper w/ VI and ACD, the Phantom only shoots every other turn. It would become terrible and almost unusable unless it had a huge point drop.

There is absolutely nothing broken about the Phantom on its own, not even Echo and Whisper. There is nothing broken about ACD (its almost useless on the generics and pretty bad in the current meta on the elites on its own). It is only the combination of the elites, VI, and ACD brought together under one roof that creates any sort of issue.

Sorry, but you are wrong here. Making decloak an action is not going to limit phantoms with ACD to firing every other turn. ACD is the only reason that the phantom can shoot every turn (while benefiting from the cloak)... and that is the problem. ACD literally doubles the firepower of this ship for 4 points.

I totally agree that the problem is the combination of named pilots, VI and ACD together. This is why I think that ACD should remove a Elite Pilot Skill point (not worse on generics, further neuters the pilot skill but keeps it strong against swarms) It seems fair to me.

If Decloak became an action, its unmodified 4 dice attack would be as good as a modified 2 dice attack. If it was also reduced to 3 attack, it would be like rolling a modified 1.5 dice. Add to this, that aside from Whisper w/ VI and ACD, the Phantom only shoots every other turn. It would become terrible and almost unusable unless it had a huge point drop.

There is absolutely nothing broken about the Phantom on its own, not even Echo and Whisper. There is nothing broken about ACD (its almost useless on the generics and pretty bad in the current meta on the elites on its own). It is only the combination of the elites, VI, and ACD brought together under one roof that creates any sort of issue.

4 unmodified attack dice are much better than 2 modified attack dice. 2 attack dice with a focus or TL will average 1.5 hits per attack. 4 unmodified attack dice will average 2 hits per attack. So, just on averages 4 unmodified is better than 2 modifed, though not by much. The big difference is in the damage ceiling. Putting aside range bonuses, 2 attack dice will only ever be able to get 2 hits maximum, no matter what the roll. 4 attack dice will sometimes get you 4 hits. The same can be said about the damage floor too though. 2 modified attack dice will rarely get you 0 damage. 4 unmodifed will net you 0 damage 6% of the time (the same amount it gets 4 hits). 2 unmodified will get you 0 damage roughly 1.5% of the time.

So, I say I'll take 4 unmodified attack over 2 modified attack every day of the week. There is a higher average with 4 attack and a much higher damage ceiling with 4 attack. The Phantom's attack with 4 unmodified dice would still be better than a tie fighters with a focus.

The real question is do you think an equal point turret ship can fight against an equal point phantom. I fly against phantoms and they are pretty annoying, but there are ways to play around them by limiting their choices to decloak, so you can keep them in your arcs. I don't feel they need a nerf since you get what you pay for.

I agree completely in this way of handling phantoms. De-cloaks bring an amazing wealth of options, but high PS can work against phantoms by blocking off their options with your lower PS pilots.

For me, the problem's not in the maneuverability (aka, the whole **** point of the phantom) but more in the + two dice from cloaking. 4 red dice is nuts, but understandable given the 12 point profile (Z-95). 4 red dice and 4 green dice is just excessively forgiving, on such a maneuverable ship imo, esp with the wealth of actions and whisper's free focus.

I'd love to see ACD remove the 2 agility bonus (trading security for speed) so we can bring more focus to the maneuvers rather than the dice. Sadly, while turrets exist in the way they do, this will never be an option.

Or once all other letters are taken, OPTION Z: The final option... Stop complaining and play the game. I enjoy that forum go'ers think they are the voice of the majority. You aren't, most players don't believe the phantom is broken, why? Because like all other ships it has its strengths and weakness. Will your squad have an easy time with one? Possibly, if not, you probably will wreck a different squad just fine. Not all squads need to be equal, where their deficiencies are, the player skill should cover them. I know, I know, its blasphemy and illogical to think this, but oh well.

For the OP, if any of those "fixes" were to be placed, I wouldn't use the phantom. Why? At that price point interceptors would be vastly superior and the phantom would go the way of the phonograph.

Or once all other letters are taken, OPTION Z: The final option... Stop complaining and play the game. I enjoy that forum go'ers think they are the voice of the majority. You aren't, most players don't believe the phantom is broken, why? Because like all other ships it has its strengths and weakness. Will your squad have an easy time with one? Possibly, if not, you probably will wreck a different squad just fine. Not all squads need to be equal, where their deficiencies are, the player skill should cover them. I know, I know, its blasphemy and illogical to think this, but oh well.

For the OP, if any of those "fixes" were to be placed, I wouldn't use the phantom. Why? At that price point interceptors would be vastly superior and the phantom would go the way of the phonograph.

I like option Z as well!!!! I will also add with the addition of autothrusters, the interceptor would be even more appealing than a phantom if the changes were made. Every ship has its specialty. Just because you do not know how to play the phantom well, or how to play against it, doesn't make it broken. I honestly hate fat han, but is it broken, I would sadly have to say no. It costs a vast majority of your points. Put it this way, if you were to know in advance what the other person was going to fly, could you build a squad that has a very solid, if not guaranteed chance of killing it? I have to say yes. You build the best squad you can that can deal with the majority of lists and go with it and rely on skill for those underdog matches.

Bottom line, as stated above, stop complaining and enjoy the game!