i would use A.

I can´t understand what were the creators of the game thinking in when they gave the phantom 4 attack dice with that price. If I want 4 attack dice in a B-wing, I have to pay 7 points, and can´t fire at range 1 for example. 3 dices would be fair.

Not complaining, but looking for a balance. I understand the game is the way it is an you have to play it that way. Leave the phantom with 4 attack dice, but make decloak and action. This will allow the phantom to still rack up some big damage from time to time, but also miss. Which every other ship in the game does now. The phantom rolls so many dice, it almost never misses and if it does it always has a focus to help it. Making Decloak an action makes sense on so many levels.

It requires Pilots to fly better, which really is what this game is about. People complain about phat han, not so much that he has a turret, but the fact that he has a turret makes him easier to fly.

The real issue here is the ease in which ships can be flown, and right now ships with turrets or phantoms with their unique cloak ability are very easy to fly. Make them tougher to fly by making decloak an action fixes that problem.

As for 360 primary weapon turrets, I still think you should only get the +1 range bonus if the target is in the primary arc. That would force people to fly Han a little differently than now. It would require more skill to fly him.

Lets face it this game is about flying, and right now both the phantom and turret ships are very easy to fly. change this slightly and you will have a better game, which requires more skill to play and win.

My two cents

The b-wing also has 8 total hit points and has a base cost of 22 points. The base phantom really does not benefit defensively from ACD unless facing a swarm, which would be a huge gamble. If it decides to cloak, it cannot attack.

The phantom is a glass cannon in every definition. Keep range and run away. If you make a single mistake, any good player is going to jump on it and punish the phantom for it.

Honestly it seems to me that many people who complain about the phantom just have no idea how to fly it and/or how to counter it. Any imperial squad I fly has a rebel captive, no questions asked, as well as a pilot with higher PS level. Any rebel squad I am flying has high PS plus a ship that rolls and/or boost to help keep a phantom in sights. Are phantoms tough ships to crack, absolutely. So are fat falcons and so is PTL Fel. I can't wait until autothrusters come out and the complaints start flying about Fel being OP. Know what the meta looks like, look at what ships can help counter those problems, and select a squad that fits your style. If you are seriously THAT concerned over the phantom, or really any ship at all, maybe it isn't the right game for you.

Edit: I again have to disagree with the previous comment. Phantoms are not that easy to fly. Predicting both where you will decloak AND where you will go w/ your movement can be very difficult. I have flown the phantom many, many times and have still landed on a rock or crashed before or got in a spot I didn't mean to. These ships take skill to ensure you have someone in arc to fire at, especially higher ps skill ships

While I agree that the game should be more about the maneuvers and less about dice (hence why I hate turrets), I am not too certain penalizing phantom action efficiency is the greatest idea

On one hand, Whisper

de-cloaks --> post maneuver action --> FCS target-lock --> Free Cloak action --> Assigned focus

(4 "actions" post decloak, down to 3 with suggested fix)

On the other hand, the poor Sigma is going to be even more side-lined than it already is.

Still think the phantom would be much better if ACD lopped off cloaking's bonus agility so it could be more like the high skill-cap finesse ship it's supposed to be and less of a small based semi

Having flown Sigmas myself, I can say that they really don't need fixes (they're very fun, but very involving to the point of stress-inducing. Great fun against arced ships where the two players really have to go through mental hoops, but you're basically handicapping yourself against turrets. Turrets just take all the fun out )

The phantom is a glass cannon in every definition. Keep range and run away. If you make a single mistake, any good player is going to jump on it and punish the phantom for it.

I'm afraid you've confused the phantom for the interceptor

Well, you could very well be describing the Sigma, Shadow, or even Echo, but that description certainly does not apply to whisper.

Remember this is hypothetical:

I have won tournaments with a 3 phantom list. Yes, it does take practice to fly a phantom, but not much. Han is the same way, stay on the out skirts and shoot 360. If they get close you still get 4 dice, so who cares not much strategy or skill in that.

You always have a way to get away from traps, especially if you move after the other person. You can't cloak one way, well I will just cloak to the other, or the front. I have selected a 1 hard turn to the right, I won't decloak I will just stay cloaked and barrel roll after I move. Plus My Intelligence agent tells me where your moving so, I can really lay into you.

I say when your cloaked you cannot take any actions, and decloak should be an action.

That fixes phantoms. Sure sigma's may suffer a bit, but right now I can stay a range 3 for half the game and use my 4 dice to pepper you into submission. when you get close (If you get close) after you have a few damage cards, I may use saboteur on you (yes it's great on phantoms, as a surprise), or heck perhaps a rebel captive to add stress every time you shoot at me. Now that mara is out, it's even more fun. Plus by the time you get close I've got automatic locks on you with my FCS. Now I firing 5 dice range one with two of my phantoms (Lets say somehow you dodged my whisper's arc, but I doubt it) So 10 dice with re-roll and focus,

Believe me I have been told by other to never use the list again, that's how much they hated it. It's obvious 4 dice at range 3 with a ship that can stay at range 3 easily and get and evade. Heavy laser, with criticals.

Worst of all I felt dirty playing it, because I took advantage of the rules and honestly it was not hard to fly it either.

Honestly it seems to me that many people who complain about the phantom just have no idea how to fly it and/or how to counter it. Any imperial squad I fly has a rebel captive, no questions asked, as well as a pilot with higher PS level. Any rebel squad I am flying has high PS plus a ship that rolls and/or boost to help keep a phantom in sights. Are phantoms tough ships to crack, absolutely. So are fat falcons and so is PTL Fel. I can't wait until autothrusters come out and the complaints start flying about Fel being OP. Know what the meta looks like, look at what ships can help counter those problems, and select a squad that fits your style. If you are seriously THAT concerned over the phantom, or really any ship at all, maybe it isn't the right game for you.

This stifles list creativity. If I "have" to bring Rebel Captive or I "have" to bring a high-PS ship or I "have" to bring a turret just to counter one ship, this limits what ships and how many you can bring.

Does 5xAP + Dark Curse + Howlrunner sound viable to you? What about Biggs + 2xAdv Sensor Daggers + Rookie? Wedge+Luke+Biggs (no engine upgrades)?

How could the meta be so warped by one ship that Nationals and Worlds top placing and winning builds aren't seen as viable anymore?

The phantom is the most cost efficient ship since the Tie fighter and it shows by the fact that everyone is running phantom counters and there are people are still running (and winning) with phantoms.

Honestly it seems to me that many people who complain about the phantom just have no idea how to fly it and/or how to counter it. Any imperial squad I fly has a rebel captive, no questions asked, as well as a pilot with higher PS level. Any rebel squad I am flying has high PS plus a ship that rolls and/or boost to help keep a phantom in sights. Are phantoms tough ships to crack, absolutely. So are fat falcons and so is PTL Fel. I can't wait until autothrusters come out and the complaints start flying about Fel being OP. Know what the meta looks like, look at what ships can help counter those problems, and select a squad that fits your style. If you are seriously THAT concerned over the phantom, or really any ship at all, maybe it isn't the right game for you.

This stifles list creativity. If I "have" to bring Rebel Captive or I "have" to bring a high-PS ship or I "have" to bring a turret just to counter one ship, this limits what ships and how many you can bring.

Does 5xAP + Dark Curse + Howlrunner sound viable to you? What about Biggs + 2xAdv Sensor Daggers + Rookie? Wedge+Luke+Biggs (no engine upgrades)?

How could the meta be so warped by one ship that Nationals and Worlds top placing and winning builds aren't seen as viable anymore?

The phantom is the most cost efficient ship since the Tie fighter and it shows by the fact that everyone is running phantom counters and there are people are still running (and winning) with phantoms.

Honestly it seems to me that many people who complain about the phantom just have no idea how to fly it and/or how to counter it. Any imperial squad I fly has a rebel captive, no questions asked, as well as a pilot with higher PS level. Any rebel squad I am flying has high PS plus a ship that rolls and/or boost to help keep a phantom in sights. Are phantoms tough ships to crack, absolutely. So are fat falcons and so is PTL Fel. I can't wait until autothrusters come out and the complaints start flying about Fel being OP. Know what the meta looks like, look at what ships can help counter those problems, and select a squad that fits your style. If you are seriously THAT concerned over the phantom, or really any ship at all, maybe it isn't the right game for you.

This stifles list creativity. If I "have" to bring Rebel Captive or I "have" to bring a high-PS ship or I "have" to bring a turret just to counter one ship, this limits what ships and how many you can bring.

Does 5xAP + Dark Curse + Howlrunner sound viable to you? What about Biggs + 2xAdv Sensor Daggers + Rookie? Wedge+Luke+Biggs (no engine upgrades)?

How could the meta be so warped by one ship that Nationals and Worlds top placing and winning builds aren't seen as viable anymore?

The phantom is the most cost efficient ship since the Tie fighter and it shows by the fact that everyone is running phantom counters and there are people are still running (and winning) with phantoms.

I completely agree with you 100%

I always love the hate on ships in this game, do none of you realize the falcon had the same effect for so long as well? Using the meta to back your argument is like building a house from rice paper. As soon as a change in weather occurs, it gets blown down. A new "meta shift" will happen shortly, then where will we be? The same place complaining about a different ship. Learn to cope, play the game and enjoy yourself. Dont feel bound to counter builds, I have first hand experience that this only leads to your downfall in large tournaments.

I always love the hate on ships in this game, do none of you realize the falcon had the same effect for so long as well? Using the meta to back your argument is like building a house from rice paper. As soon as a change in weather occurs, it gets blown down. A new "meta shift" will happen shortly, then where will we be? The same place complaining about a different ship. Learn to cope, play the game and enjoy yourself. Dont feel bound to counter builds, I have first hand experience that this only leads to your downfall in large tournaments.

pretty horrible example considering the Falcon is still seen as one of the meta power houses

he is still being discussed on the board, just in a thread where he is relevant

But he wasnt being discussed as op in everythread back in the previous years "worlds". So the example stands.

But he wasnt being discussed as op in everythread back in the previous years "worlds". So the example stands.

A han build won worlds this time, not a phantom, yet phantoms are OP? There are hard counters to both craft, not every ship needs to be able to play against every ship on equal footing. This is where player skill comes into play. But what people tend to disillusion themselves with is just because top player X excels at something that makes a ship broken.

Also mind you back when the falcon was released and considered OP, it wasn't it that won but rather Bs and Xs that years worlds.

Well, as much fun as it has been discussing the pro's and con's of the phantom on this thread, I can see that some people just want to hate on ships. I will respectfully refrain from any more posts defending the phantom as not being broken. You will see it however you wish, no matter what. Good luck in future games to you all and I hope you find a way to defeat this beast of a machine that as previously stated couldn't win world's when flown by an unbelievable pilot.

But he wasnt being discussed as op in everythread back in the previous years "worlds". So the example stands.

Boy, did you miss the original Double Falcon complaints...

i would use A.

I can´t understand what were the creators of the game thinking in when they gave the phantom 4 attack dice with that price. If I want 4 attack dice in a B-wing, I have to pay 7 points, and can´t fire at range 1 for example. 3 dices would be fair.

Actually, yes your B-Wing can shoot at Range 1. You also get 4 dice at Range 1.

And yes, making decloaking cost an action, or reducing attack to 3, would not just hurt the generic Phantoms, it would ruin them. An Interceptor with Auto thrusters and Stealth Device would be better EVERY time.

I've always thought they should remove the EPT from phantoms. Either that or reword ACD to "after a missed attack" or something like that. Right now they get to have their cake and eat it too, as well as your cake. All for five points.

I'm all for shifting the meta, but phantoms shifted it too much, and are entirely to blame for all the turrets everywhere.

The point isn't that the Phantom can't be beaten, the point is Phantoms drove the meta to stagnation by their sheer presence because they are the extreme top of attack, defense, and mobility.

If Phantoms were 3 attack, it would not be as meta defining.

If Phantoms couldn't keep 4 defense dice up the whole time, it would not be as meta defining.

If Phantoms couldn't decloak as far/before maneuver/without action/etc., it would not be as meta defining.

The combination of all these three abilities makes this a ship you will always have to worry about, always have to include a counter, and, thus, always puts a stranglehold on what you can bring.

Therefore, the original point of this thread was to address even 1 of those aspects of the phantom and see if it would break the phantom to uselessness.

The phantom is an incredibly powerful ship but it is far from unbeatable...if you bring anti-phantom tech.

Correct. No one is saying they cannot be beaten. It's just that they break so many rules of the Meta, that it has made a lot of lists basically useless.

Posts #65-67. This. This is what's going on and as a community we need to get our hands off the awesome toy that is the phantom long enough to acknowledge the damage it has cost.

7 z wing scum with feedback arrays has an answer to both super squishy ships and swarms enough to threaten the 2 ship builds. If anything the phantom will need a buff to cull the swarms again