How much do you tell the rebels about victory conditions?

I've played only a few missions with my group so far, but two of them have been timed (in number of rounds). The "read aloud" text mentions that they have to be quick, but nothing more. Should the Imperial Player be giving the Rebels both the victory conditions (You have to access all of the consoles on the map/Blow up all of the objectives/etc) and their lose conditions (Imperials win after X rounds/Imperials win if ally gets defeated)?

This is a common misconception. People think that because the Rebel players are not allowed to read the book, that the Imperial Player shouldn't read it to them either. The reason Rebels shouldn't read the book is because it alerts them to when specific events trigger, giving them a significant edge.

Every time something triggers (door opens, end of a specific round, etc.), you read that whole section to them. Those are the rules of the game and the Rebels have to be told what they are. You also need to read it again if they ask for it (since they're not allowed to look it up themselves in case they see something they shouldn't).

The exception to the "read everything" rule is that the Imperial Player often has choices to make. In those cases, he chooses one without revealing the other(s) and only reads aloud the option he chose. This preserves suspense and mystery for future replays. For example, he may have a choice between deploying two different reserve groups. He will not tell the Rebels what each group is. Instead, he will only deploy the one group he chose and the other group will remain a secret.

EDIT: And to address victory conditions specifically, any time a phrase ends with the Rebel crest, that point is not only to be read, but emphasized to the Rebels as the thing they need to do to win. They should also be made aware of time limits. If they don't know the time limits, there is no suspense.

You should probably read over the first page of the campaign book again with these things in mind to make sure you aren't missing anything else.

This is just baffling.

This is answered in the rules of the campaign guide.

Read all the flavour and rules text under each section when the event occurs.

On page 2 of the campaign guide (CG), you should read the section labelled "Hidden information", "Mission Events" and "Event Summary". As the Imperial Player, you must read that entire page, it's good stuff. You'll need it.

Long story short:

At the beginning of the mission, the Imperial player reads the Mission Briefing to the rebel players, this **INCLUDES** the bullet points under the Mission Briefing. However, this is the ONLY information you read to the rebel players **UNTIL** specific event(s) are triggered during the mission, then you read those section(s) including any relevant bullet points as they occur.

The Mission Briefing for **EVERY SINGLE MISSION** has a bullet point that tells the rebel players either how to end the mission, or how to progress the mission. These bullet points have a rebel symbol in them. Under "Mission Events" CG, Page 2, it states:

"Certain rules reference the mission ending or progressing, followed by the Rebel Symbol . This indicates that the preceding text is an objective that the heroes are attempting to fulfill, which should be emphasized to the Rebel Players by the Imperial Player"

So, the rebels at the VERY LEAST will know what they need to do to either progress the mission, or to end the mission.

So, let's take for "Aftermath" for example. At the beginning of the mission, the Rebels should know:

• There are four terminals that need to be destroyed.
• The door is locked to Imperial figures.
• The mission ends when the first of these events occurs:
  
  A) Once all the terminals are destroyed.
  B) When all the heroes are wounded.
  C) At the end of round six.

That's all the rebel players need and should know going into it. Nothing else. They need to know their objective and they need to know they are under time pressure. The flavor text builds this up, (paraphrasing)

"You are heading into an ambush and you don't have much time to accomplish your goal. Get to it, heroes! The galaxy isn't going to save itself, now is it? And would it hurt if you called your mother once in awhile? She misses you, and you know she's not going to be around forever. I'm not saying put down your blaster and pick up the holo right this very second, because you have a mission to complete. But hey, when you get back to base, maybe tell her you love her."

The rebels wont know anything else until those events occur (I would say "if any" at the end of that, but in this game there are always surprises).

Does that sum it up?

Do the Rebels know where the Imperial Spawn points are?

No, they need to learn that through the art of observation.

No, they need to learn that through the art of observation.

Also known as, "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!"

Do the Rebels know where the Imperial Spawn points are?

No you don't need to tell them that. How ever after you have spawned troops there they will know.

I'm running a group in campaign now. I give them mission intro, plus a clarify the win conditions and (because they are all new to gaming) I've been giving them the round limit (if any). I plan on eventually weening them off of giving them the time limit. I want to make it fun for the players, especially new players. I also fudge my deployments a bit if they start mowing down what I have available. I inform them that certain triggers can occur, but never divulge the details. That helps them understand when things happen it triggered. They are learning to play and having fun. What works for me and my group may not work with another more experienced group.

I'm running a group in campaign now. I give them mission intro, plus a clarify the win conditions and (because they are all new to gaming) I've been giving them the round limit (if any). I plan on eventually weening them off of giving them the time limit. I want to make it fun for the players, especially new players. I also fudge my deployments a bit if they start mowing down what I have available. I inform them that certain triggers can occur, but never divulge the details. That helps them understand when things happen it triggered. They are learning to play and having fun. What works for me and my group may not work with another more experienced group.

While it is nice that you are helping new players in this genre, you cannot "ween them off" the round limit information, you must tell them this. Every single mission in the CG that has a round limit lists this information in the Mission Briefing section. Note that you should also be telling them every bullet point under the Mission Briefing section as well, as this is vital information and you are instructed by Page 2 of the CG to divulge this information.

I ran into a problem I have with the whole hidden information this weekend.

The imperial player told me the win conditions (we are playing 2 players 4 heroes) in the mission briefing, and loss conditions. Survive to end of round 8, or imperials get 4 control points.

From the rebel stand point, this mission was not even remotely fun. In fact it kind of made me want to quit playing the game. Then we get to the end of round 7 and the imperial player has his control points.

THEN he says, You tied!.. I"m like what? What do you mean I tided? Him - You survived till round 6! you tied the mission.

And from there I was kind of dumbfounded. If I had known that a tie was an option going in, the constant escalation would still have made the mission tense.. But not ******* horribly hopeless and kind of not worth even playing. After that mission before he told me that it was a draw, I kind of wanted to box up the game and never bring it out again. I have 4 other campaigns going where I am the imperial player, and have not run into one of the "draw" missions yet. And I imagine if I ran it the same way with any of my other groups they would come away with the same feeling.

Normally it takes a lot for me to reach "never play this game again". But we played 3 straight missions in a row and started pretty late. So it was about 2 in the morning when this one got started. And the mission we played prior to this one for the side mission was Jyn's. And well that one might as well have not been set up. It was over in round 1. Imperial player did a total of 32 damage in round 1. But that is a different thread. So going from that, to the second story mission kind of set the mood, plus it being stupid late and me being tired.

So in situations like this, where conditions are ONLY in the "End Mission" section, is THAT hidden information? Do the rebels never get to know if there is a "Draw" option?

I get that the mission is supposed to give the heroes that "hopeless" feeling. But this is also a game, that people want to have fun playing. Even when they are losing there needs to be some fun. And I don't have the book right now to check if that mission shows the rebel symbol next to the end mission bit. So I am unable to check that for myself.

There is no "draw" or "tie" condition in Under Siege story mission.

The mission briefing is the only thing you read to the rebel players in the beginning of a mission. It ALWAYS contains the conditions for ending the mission and/or progressing the mission. It does not reveal extraordinaire performance rewards such as completing objectives quickly etc.

There is no "draw" or "tie" condition in Under Siege story mission.

For the rebels there is just

A) win

B) bad (all heroes withdrawn OR 4 capture points secured)

C) terrible (imp player secures 4 capture points before the end of round 6)

B and C are losses with the imp player getting a lot of xp / influence

The mission briefing is the only thing you read to the rebel players in the beginning of a mission. It ALWAYS contains the conditions for ending the mission and/or progressing the mission. It does not reveal extraordinaire performance rewards such as completing objectives quickly etc.

You are missing the reward of

I don't have my book with me so I can't type it word for word.

But I see how that counts as a "performance" item. So yeah we are totally house ruling that. Or the game is just getting box'ed. You can't expect players in a competitive game to be thrown into what looks like a no win situation (and pretty much is for both sides, just the imps get to know that there is a middle ground while the rebels don't), where the opposing player gets an ever increasing super force, to have fun getting their faces stomped in.

That may sound like whining, but I don't care. I play for the competition AND to have fun. Even the guy running the imps thought it was bad form because the whole time he KNEW about the escalation of force that was being given to him for no threat. He kept trying to be encouraging during the game without giving away that there was a middle ground. But that doesn't help. That just makes the imp player look condescending.

I know the feeling of hopelessness was what this mission was going for. And boy howdy does it deliver.

That may sound like whining, but I don't care. I play for the competition AND to have fun. Even the guy running the imps thought it was bad form because the whole time he KNEW about the escalation of force that was being given to him for no threat. He kept trying to be encouraging during the game without giving away that there was a middle ground. But that doesn't help. That just makes the imp player look condescending.

I know the feeling of hopelessness was what this mission was going for. And boy howdy does it deliver.

You might as well box up your game and quit then, because every single mission in the game has hidden information that the imperial player knows and the rebels have to find out the hard way. Every. Single. Mission. This is a design choice. It is meant to be played this way. You're heroes. You're supposed to be put into no-win situations and eek out a victory by the skin of your teeth. That's the whole point of the game. Heroes have abilities that the Imperial figures don't have. Heroes can do all sorts of fun stuff. Heroes can rest, heroes can take 20+ damage before being eliminated. Hell, in this mission, the rebels can shoot through the freaking doors for several rounds with no fear of incoming damage. Once your heroes started taking damage, did you fall back behind another door and attempt to hold position, or did you sit there out in the open and try to defend a bunker without cover? The rebels know at the very beginning they have to last for 8 rounds, and they know that the Imperials have to take four rooms to win before that. Did you play it defensively and consolidate to hold a more defensible position? Or did you decide to yell "yippie-kai-ya motherfucker!" and try to pull the "best defense is a good offense" tactic?

The other thing you need to know is this: The rebels aren't going to win every time. In a perfect world, they should win about half the time. That said, the difference between winning and losing a mission is a few hundred credits, or an XP, an item or a possible ally. No single loss is a game breaker.

You remove the hidden information, and trust me, only hard core imperial die-hard, A++ players will be able to beat the heroes with what they are given. And the game becomes less fun in the other direction.

It sounds like you were one turn away from winning!

I don't see how defending a complex from Royal Guard, Vader and an AT-ST could be anything but fun, but hey-ho.

The AT-ST should be especially ineffective, it should really only get one good shot off at best.

I think there is some narrative text that the IP should have read that implies that you have succeded at your stated mission once you hit turn 7?

It sounds like you were one turn away from winning!

I don't see how defending a complex from Royal Guard, Vader and an AT-ST could be anything but fun, but hey-ho.

The AT-ST should be especially ineffective, it should really only get one good shot off at best.

I think there is some narrative text that the IP should have read that implies that you have succeded at your stated mission once you hit turn 7?

That is incorrect,

Also in vain of the narrative text, by the time we got to that point I was a bit demoralized and didn't really care about the story blurb. As I was busy trying to figure a way out of this seemingly no win situation. I heard him, but I wasn't listening for nuance. And up to this point there has been no indication that the "story blurbs" can actually contain important information outside of the mission rules. I'd like to file that bit under another "the rebel player should have known". Maybe in the rules a mention of "Hey sometimes the story can contain important information for the goals of the mission!". If that is stated in the rules somewhere, then my bad, I missed that, and it's all on me for not listening for mission info in the story narrative.

@fizz

I'm not mad about hidden mission (triggers/events/threat free forces) information. That s not the problem. The problem was a possible draw condition being hidden. But whatever. You can be all defensive about the "design decisions of the game". I'm saying that so far hidden victory conditions are not fun for the rebel player. And just make the imperial player look like a smug condescending jerk when he or she is trying to encourage the rebel to keep fighting the overwhelming odds that he/she has at his/her disposal for said mission.

I don't care about being put against overwhelming odds. And NOW that I know how that mission works, I CAN see it being fun to play, but that is KNOWING that there is a

. As a mostly imperial player (this was my first run as rebels) I am not looking forward to any of my other 4 groups (I am imp in each one) encounters with other similar missions. Performance conditions should be stated to the rebel player. ESPECIALLY when put in a no (slim) win. I don't care who you are (emotional masochists not included), "no win" scenarios are demoralizing to play and if they drag on too long the player(s) start to make stupid mistakes because he/she/they just want the game to be done with.

And yes I know RAW the mission has no "draw" condition, but the round 6 performance condition that makes the imperial win grant equal bonus to both sides is a draw. That is pretty much the essence of a draw. No it is not an end mission condition. Yes it is tied to the imperial

Heck something as simple as a "heads up there is a possible performance condition for both sides" would have made this mission VASTLY more enjoyable, while keeping the flavor of "All information is hidden". And it could fit in the mission briefing.

I think it could well have been oversight on the designers part. Off hand I can't think of another mission with a similar 'non-win' condition.

As the IP it didn't occur to me that there was an issue until the game wrapped up (I 'won' in round 8) and I realised that I really hadn't won. I think I'd have to be several more scenarios in to the game to have caught that there was essentially a secondary win condition just on a read through.

It's really not a no-win scenario though, I won't budge on that. The rebels only need to hold two sections to win.

I think it could well have been oversight on the designers part. Off hand I can't think of another mission with a similar 'non-win' condition.

As the IP it didn't occur to me that there was an issue until the game wrapped up (I 'won' in round 8) and I realised that I really hadn't won. I think I'd have to be several more scenarios in to the game to have caught that there was essentially a secondary win condition just on a read through.

It's really not a no-win scenario though, I won't budge on that. The rebels only need to hold two sections to win.

I agree it's not no win. It is a slim win. But it's slim win for BOTH sides. The odds of the imp getting all 4 before turn 6 are as slim as the rebels surviving to the end of round 8. The difference is the IMP knows that the turn 6 condition exists. The rebels get to round 6 and are desperately trying to hold out until the end of round 8.

In my particular game, I was trying not to power game my rebel setup. So I don't have any hard hitters. Got Mak, Jyn, Gideon, and Diala. While I think the synergy and effectiveness will eventually pay off, early missions, they are not very good at taking out forces to prevent being overwhelmed. They are good at stunning targets though when they can get a small amount of damage through. Jyn would be a powerhouse but imp is using the anti endurance class. So resting is an opportunity for him, as is me attacking.

But that is not the purpose of this thread.

@Fizz again

In regards to the defense.

So not knowing the doors do that, it was pretty fair to assume that standing on the door tile was safe since the enemy couldn't shoot through it.

I think your Empire player was just trying to be nice, and soften the loss for you. There is no "draw" condition. There are only conditions for victory and loss. Some losses just aren't as crushing as others.

One should not read campaign rulebok in the middle of the night with serious sleep deprivation. The post 6th turn objective capture gives indeed 1xp to each player.

During our campaign the few crushing defeats both sides have suffered have always been from poor strategy. We have always gone through the mission afterwards (still not revealing all details) and discussed how it went and what both sides could have done differently. And every time we have had fun.

But from your statement that you want to play competitively you should forget the campaign. It will be uphills and downhills every mission with lots of missions having extra rewards for, I'll just describe it as, "extraordinary" performance.

Your gaming preference really seems to be skirmish with no "hidden" win conditions.

If you really don't enjoy the game even then, I suggest you don't play it. Games are meant to be fun!

I think your Empire player was just trying to be nice, and soften the loss for you. There is no "draw" condition. There are only conditions for victory and loss. Some losses just aren't as crushing as others.

I don't think you understand what a draw is. The round 6 condition essentially makes the mission a draw as far as the rewards go for both sides. Neither side gets a bonus. Granted, the next story mission is still on the loss path.

When I say competitive I don't mean GRR ARR I MUST WIN. I mean I want to play a game with my friends on the opposite side, where both sides have a chance of winning. Hiding possible performance conditions from one side in a balance tipped mission is an odd design choice. Regardless of narrative. If there was at the very least, a mention that there is a performance condition in the mission briefing it would be better. It doesn't even have to be specific. Hell it doesn't even have to say what side the performance condition is for. Just the fact that there is one would go a long way to putting the fun back into that mission.

And I did say that now that I KNOW the mission, I can see it actually being fun on both ends. But the idea is to go in blind when playing the rebels.

@Fizz,

This is probably totally wrong, but I get the impression that you are almost exclusively the imperial player for your group and or have not been the rebel player on the first fully hidden run of this mission. There is a difference of going into this mission as a rebel but from the imp perspective of "I've played this before" vs a fresh rebel who has yet to encounter so called performance conditions.

/@Fizz

Most pure imp players I talk to (irl) have pretty much the same opinion as Fizz. And the combo players I have spoken with (again irl, and by combo I mean have played both roles) have house ruled the performance condition in the way I mentioned above. Or have considered doing so as their rebels were not happy about being slammed with that kind of thing.

In my group I am exclusively the imp player as well. That is until this weekend. As an Imp player I don't want my rebels to go through this mission with the performance condition as 100% hidden. We are pretty casual and I'd like my groups to not decide that a different game is far more worth their time like they did with descent. So far they are loving the game, the win loss has been 50/50. But none of them have come across a "performance condition" mission.

Anyhow it is obvious I'm not going to change your mind (at general thread), and it's pretty obvious that you are incapable of understanding the point I am trying to get at (@fizz) as you just keep going back to the same "Well I guess this isn't for you". So I'm going to peace out of this thread since I'm just repeating the exact same thing. But I have one last bit.

The point of airing this kind of information is to show FFG that there are some aspects of the game that some players might not agree with, and might have been missed during play test (my playtest group didn't play this mission). Thus they can see if there is enough call for a perceived unfun mechanic to be faq'ed out. I would be doing this game a disservice if I did not voice my opinion on this particular piece. Because the rest of the game so far has been fantastic.

I want to see this game do well, and that to me means as many people playing it as possible. I don't want any of my groups to stop playing.

And going to Skirmish is not the answer. Just like descent, the imp player in the campaign is also trying to win. The campaign is not a pure narrative. Both sides are at odds and want to win. The Imp player is not the DM and there to facilitate the rebels enjoyment, or vice verse. Even when played casually, both sides want a chance of winning AND to have fun.

"Certain rules reference the mission ending or progressing, followed by the Rebel Symbol . This indicates that the preceding text is an objective that the heroes are attempting to fulfill, which should be emphasized to the Rebel Players by the Imperial Player"

So, the rebels at the VERY LEAST will know what they need to do to either progress the mission, or to end the mission.

So, let's take for "Aftermath" for example. At the beginning of the mission, the Rebels should know:

• There are four terminals that need to be destroyed.
• The door is locked to Imperial figures.
• The mission ends when the first of these events occurs:

  A) Once all the terminals are destroyed.

  B) When all the heroes are wounded.

  C) At the end of round six

In the "Aftermath" scenario, Point B and C above are after the Rebel Alliance symbol, and perusing many of the other scenarios, most have the Rebel wounded criteria and the time limit criteria AFTER the Rebel Alliance symbol.

So as the Imperial player I'm only on the hook to provide:

• The box text
• The fact that the Rebels can attack the terminals (and their stats).
• The door is locked to Imperial forces.
• The scenario ends once the fourth terminal is destroyed.

The way I read it is that the wound limit and time limit of 6 rounds is secret information available to the Imperial player only. Meaning that if the Rebel scum haven't succeeded in destroying the terminal by the end of round 6, the Imperial player wins, and trust me, I'm gonna use that to my advantage as much as I can.

Completely disagree with that. Excluded is not the opposite of emphasized.

Second paragraph under Mission Events on Page 2 of the Campaign Guide states that "When an event is triggered, all of the text and rule information within that section is read aloud and resolved, in order."

In the previous paragraph they specifically state that "Mission Briefing" is an event.

The only exclusions to that are if the IP has to make a choice.

Good point. I'll not emphasize the wound and time limitation.

I'll deliver that information sotto voce .