Has anyone else tried playing skirmishes at higher than 40? It felt restrictive, and I get that building the list and making the hard choices is part of the game. However, I thought that even 45 points felt a lot better. 50 seemed a bit too free, however.
I'm just curious on other's opinions on the matter.
I have thought about it. 45 opens up a huge range of options, not all of then feel balanced though.
I'm not sure if they'll do it, but other skirmish games have also begun with low point limits and then gradually increased those limits or added higher-limit formats. DDM and SWM are the first ones to come to mind. However, X-Wing (which is the closest cousin to IA from FFG, from a skirmish point of view) has not done that yet, and so it might not be in view for IA either. Personally, I would kinda like to see a category in the 50-60pt range.
I wonder if the maps will need to be bigger though. At some point, the deployment zones will be the biggest limiter if they don't expand.
I don't think they can go higher without re-balancing the scenarios. Time will tell, but I seriously doubt it. Being restricted is important the way it is, if they over blow it too much, it becomes less relevant.
Even 45 points starts letting really stulid things occur. I'd rather not give Imps another 2 officers to use.
Every figure, ability, effect etc. have been carefully tested tested and priced within the sphere of 40 points or the limit have been carefully chosen with these prices in mind. And just like X-Wing you should feel restricted by this limit. It's a very good sign that you do because it indicates that it is well placed. Too many and too weird things will/would happen if you upped the limit.
It wouldn't be called soccer if a team suddenly decided to play with 12-15 players on the field or if a football team decided to play with double the number of receivers.
It might be fun and is totally cool to try at home and share thoughts/experiences.
I agree the scenarios might break down if you start adding too many figures. If you are playing a kill them all fun skirmish it might work. Maybe more so down the road if they introduce more higher pointed pieces and you like to use all the iconic characters at once.
I think the balance is really well done. There are already a lot of combinations out of the box and room for so many more after a wave or two of expansions. Can't see myself getting bored enough with what we have to change up the max points.
If you try it, would like to read a report of how it went though.
The comparisons to X-Wing are well said, and its true that building a list should feel somewhat restricted. But on that same train of thought, Attack Wing has put out rules for increased point levels, and I feel the game is overall better for it.
Maybe FF could put out specific scenarios for 45-50 points, which are built on a larger map.
Larger maps would certainly be required for larger point totals.
And I agree that 40pts is a good limit right now.
I'd still like the option of playing a 50 or 100pt match in a new format at some point eventually, though.
I was bouncing around the idea of IA as a wargame. Think Dust:Tactics into Dust:Warfare. I know the game is not designed as a wargame but conversion might not be all that difficult. Change the movement to inchs instead of squares and most other rules would be RAW anything that is not covered in the skirmish rules could be inserted from the dust rules. I.E. deployment.
Right away I did notice a problem with converting, the line of sight and range rules that are in skirmish do not have a set amount of squares, which is fine except the chances of hitting anyone from 12 inchs away with a dice roll is pretty slim. I am not a game designer, I like IA and I like dust and I thought maybe with a little work someone smarter then me could come up with a way to make it work.
Edited by sanityawolMaybe the solution would be to just double (or maybe triple) the Accuracy results on the dice?
As for LOS, maybe you'd just need a laser pointer for each player; the piece trying to see another piece would need to hold their laser pointer above the active piece, and would need to light up the defending piece with the laser beam...if he could do that, he would have LOS to that piece. It would probably be necessary to find a uniform laser pointer design, so that everyone is operating under the same parameters.
Maybe the solution would be to just double (or maybe triple) the Accuracy results on the dice?
As for LOS, maybe you'd just need a laser pointer for each player; the piece trying to see another piece would need to hold their laser pointer above the active piece, and would need to light up the defending piece with the laser beam...if he could do that, he would have LOS to that piece. It would probably be necessary to find a uniform laser pointer design, so that everyone is operating under the same parameters.
I like the elegence of doubling (or tripiling) the dice score that could work.
I have seen the laser pointers used for LoS before in other games, They are neat and look awesome. I guess the rule would be "if a part of the figures base can draw a straight line to any part of another figures base they have line of sight". In that case you could just use a measure tape.
Thank you, you have helped me already.
The thing I don't like about larger maps and longer accuracy is it takes away too much from the melee characters. They will get too shot up trying to get across the map and not be able to attack at all for a couple turns. I like the fact they can all get into the fight immediately with the current rules and maps.
AT-43 had a measuring device that used range increments in decimeters (10 cm). Rather than doubling or tripling the accuracy value, I think establishing a unit of measure that works for the scale of the playing surface might be better. If you have an AT-43 range ruler, all the better, otherwise doing something like 1 accuracy = 3 inches or 10 cm or whatever would work well.
This is a pretty cool idea and I'd like to see what becomes of it if you stick with it. At the end of the day, they are just minis and I'm sure there are quite a few generic space combat skirmish tabletop games out there that you could co-opt the rules from. Dust Warfare might be fine too.
The thing I don't like about larger maps and longer accuracy is it takes away too much from the melee characters. They will get too shot up trying to get across the map and not be able to attack at all for a couple turns. I like the fact they can all get into the fight immediately with the current rules and maps.
I had thought about melee and agree with you, one saving grace is that since you have a much higher model count on the table there would be various methods to protect your melee character from taking damage to get them in close to do their damage. Melee for the win!
AT-43 had a measuring device that used range increments in decimeters (10 cm). Rather than doubling or tripling the accuracy value, I think establishing a unit of measure that works for the scale of the playing surface might be better. If you have an AT-43 range ruler, all the better, otherwise doing something like 1 accuracy = 3 inches or 10 cm or whatever would work well.
This is a pretty cool idea and I'd like to see what becomes of it if you stick with it. At the end of the day, they are just minis and I'm sure there are quite a few generic space combat skirmish tabletop games out there that you could co-opt the rules from. Dust Warfare might be fine too.
I haven't played AT-43 so I can't speak to the rules. What you says sounds like a neat idea. Someone would have to figure out the maths on what the average accuracy that is rolled on the dice, then figure out what increment would be fair to not over power range attacks. Just off the top of my head if 1 accuracy=2 inches and the average roll was 4 then the average threat range of a blaster would be 8 inches, while the average threat range of a melee would be 4 inches (1 movement followed by 1 attack) which seems fair to me.
I guess I could play test it a few times on my table with a few proxies to pad out the teams, just to see what happens, thanks for the help guys
well the key to balancing range in most minis games is making sure there is enough terrain on the table to keep the quarters close and block long firing lanes. The distance for 1 accuracy = x inches is going to depend on how big your table is. If you're going with a standard 40k 4' x 6' table, you might want to increase that accuracy to 3 inches or so. Of course you might also want to redo some of the speed of the models. Speed = inch per x is going to mean most models have only a 4" to 5" threat range. Plodding 8 to 10 inches per double move on a 6' map is going to suck. On a 3' map? likely fine.
Another consideration are effects that are just "line of sight." Is Vader going to stay in the corner, Force Choking guys across the map all game as they run to try to engage him? Is Gideon going to perch somewhere in another corner and give focus dice to troops 6 feet away? Likely, some compromises will need to be made.
The game is going to be bigger which likely means your Command deck will need to be bigger (although not making it bigger is interesting in its own right, though it'll make Strain effects more powerful). If Command decks get bigger, the limited number of copies a particular card might need to increase since having, say, 40 unique cards in a deck seems pretty random and difficult to make into something cohesive.
I have ran SWM with 3d terrain several times. We didn't have to worry about range. LOS on the other hand, we did have to worry about.
From the characters head if it can see the base it could be targeted following targeting rules. All 4 corner = No cover. Less = target had cover.
Here it would be you would have to have LOS of two corner from the base.
This rule helped with elevation problems where character could climb up buildings.
I have done 60 pts with 20 command cards/points and it worked just fine. However, I did on star wars minis maps which are much much bigger than the puzzle crap they want me to play with.
I'm not sure if they'll do it, but other skirmish games have also begun with low point limits and then gradually increased those limits or added higher-limit formats. DDM and SWM are the first ones to come to mind. However, X-Wing (which is the closest cousin to IA from FFG, from a skirmish point of view) has not done that yet, and so it might not be in view for IA either. Personally, I would kinda like to see a category in the 50-60pt range.
Doesn't X-wing have standard and epic battles?
Playing gridless has big issues. I did it for star wars minis but range modifiers and bonuses were needed so that sight lines and long range shooting wasn't ridiculous. There was a lot of work involved. The problem with IA is that it already has a nice range/accuracy mechanic that you would have to remove and redo.
I think a much better alternative is to add some 3d spice to a gridded map. The malifaux terraclips sets are great for a 3d wargame table feel without losing the grid. I am in the process of making permant 3d map boards right now, starting with Endor.
Doesn't X-wing have standard and epic battles?
Yes, standard is 100 points, epic is 300 points (200 per side in team epic.) But you also play on a 3x6 with 12 obstacles rather than 3x3 and 6 obstacles. You're also limited to X number of a given ship depending on the ship size.
X-Wing generally works well at nearly any point value, but it doesn't have things like LoS, melee vs ranged, objectives and maps to worry about. With X-Wing if you increase the points you just need to increase the amount of space you have and it seems to work.
I have done 60 pts with 20 command cards/points and it worked just fine. However, I did on star wars minis maps which are much much bigger than the puzzle crap they want me to play with.
Bitter much, the puzzle maps are designed based on how line of sight and accuracy work for this game. a SW Miniatures map would be much too large for this scaled fighting.
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Edited by RagemundoSanity AWOL and SpaceMonkeyMafia,
I agree with your discussion on converting Imperial Assault to an Army Scale wargame. I started a discussion here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/174227-imperial-warfare-an-army-scale-fan-rule-set-for-imperial-assault/#entry1594177 if you would like to join in.
For accuracy I am using the AT-43 measuring tape. Each accuracy band on the tape measure is about 4 inches, so for a stormtrooper that gives them an average of between 20 to 24 inches of range. There is also a zero accuracy for close combat (base to base contact is not required.) I would love to share some of my work with you.
Salcor