Do you guys use any houserules for Profit Factor?

Im not sure im liking the whole roll to buy?
How do you find it working?

What exactly do u roll for? If u can afford it? If u can aquire it? If you got the right Contacts?

How do you use the rules?

I would like a changing stat I Think, like if the wanna upgrade their armed forces with better guns and armor. Thats like X thousand armors and guns, if the want to buy a new ship, thats huge amounts of Money - surely its gonna show?
In the beginning any leftover Ship Points converts to Profit Factor - but its not the other way round.


I would love to see if anyone has done their own rules about this, or how to Think of the system as it is. Why shouldnt they been able to for example afford an unique gun, but they might buy a Light Cruiser...

I have a couple, but for the most part I find that Profit Factor works very well to represent the fact that your Rogue Trader has a large continuous source of income. (making x million thrones/day) a huge amount of capital (How about my ship as collateral?) and excellent credit (you have my word ). Managing their finances is the work of an army of scribes, definitely not something I want to deal with.

Anyway, I only roll availability in very peculiar situations - when it really is a "might" exist situation, and there isn't the time to arrange for it to be there.

I do occasionally reduce Profit Factor, but only for things that have a very large continuous drain on their finances. Ships count because of fuel and crew. Guardsmen companies might (depending on number) because of salaries/equipment. Individual vehicles, etc. Not going to mean anything in the long run.

I also generally allow players (particularly when characters have time) to say what kind of thing they're looking for (ie, "better gun" or "something for the armsmen") and roll, then get a couple choices they "can afford right now"

My big thing is that I wish the range was less dynamic or wide set. It feels odd to me that a PF 50 Rogue Trader can fail acquiring a single lasgun, but succeed buying a thousand plasma rifles.

Oh, also, completely ignore achievement points.

It sounds like you want money. I like PF. I wouoldn't care for lots of zeros. I do think achievement point bonuses for ship components is more than just a bit wonky.

I've actually been going through the expanded rules for PF acquisitions in 'Into the Storm'

The way I see it, for warp-capable ships, you put a baseline -30 to the acquisition roll, then you add in another -10 for each 10's place (or more) worth of SP the ship actually uses. You don't apply the other qualities for buying a ship to this list, though one could argue that you just don't apply 'amount' to the roll, applying rarity (near unique or unique) and availability might be much more appropriate and reduce the bonus even further to ridiculous levels. Heck, only the biggest imperial powers are going to be able to afford them with anything approaching regularity (eg: the groups with 150+ profit factor)

So a Cruiser is, with absolutely nothing special about it, going to cost -90ish on the acquisition roll, only the wealthiest of rogue trader houses can even ATTEMPT to buy it without cost.

That said, they can then PERMANENTLY burn off PF for +10 to their acquisition checks for each PF point burned. So just to be able to use their BASELINE PF, they'd have to burn off 10 or so PF for a cruiser. That's about the earnings of an entire hab segment of a planet. I think that's fair.

As far as houserules for PF....Simple.

(for PCs weapons/equipment, etc ) Its a single check ( modified for any PC contacts in the area (+10 per 200pt value of contact to the check) )

AUTOMATIC SUCCESS on any decently advanced imperial planet for any tech with a base availability of scarce or better. ( IE only tests needed are if the tech is of rare or worse availability ) Obviously some planets you just WONT find tech ( like any medieval type planet where their idea of great tech is still a sword and bow...)

(for PCs ship components, etc) I let them aquire any commonly available ammo and armours/tech for their ship WITHOUT a check needed ( i simply reduce their PF value according to what the SP value of the component listed is. IF the ship item is not commonplace ( like a nova cannon or bombardment cannon or a scartix engine coil for instance ) then i do require an aquisition text ( again with ALL associated penalties ) to LOCATE one for sale. Then they have to get there and begin negotiating the price to buy. ( again penalties based on general availability levels and quality modified by opposed commerce/fellowship tests )

This will not only limit the rolls you ( the GM ) and the Players need to do but will also curtail the traders growth. ( IE everytime the Trader locates and purchases a ship...the resulting PF cost of getting the ship WILL be taken from his current total PF value for the dynasty (permanently until it can be made up through endeavors ) which WILL limit the total number of ships a trader can get in any one session to ONE! ( barring salvage / mutinous type operations )

Hope this helps.

I tend to split PF, which, per RAW represents both money/property/incomes - tangible physical assets - and favors owed, oaths of allegiance/loyalty/friendship, prestige, reputation, social/political connections - intangibles, into Profit Factor, representing the former, and Influence, representing the latter.

RAW means that there is no difference between an ancient, well respected house that's hit financial difficulties, but has lots of friends, and a more wealthy house that has no connections or anything, and is mostly despised, but has too much money to not invite to parties/ignore.

I find splitting PF and Influence allows one to better represent a Dynasty and its connections.

I tend to split PF, which, per RAW represents both money/property/incomes - tangible physical assets - and favors owed, oaths of allegiance/loyalty/friendship, prestige, reputation, social/political connections - intangibles, into Profit Factor, representing the former, and Influence, representing the latter.

RAW means that there is no difference between an ancient, well respected house that's hit financial difficulties, but has lots of friends, and a more wealthy house that has no connections or anything, and is mostly despised, but has too much money to not invite to parties/ignore.

I find splitting PF and Influence allows one to better represent a Dynasty and its connections.

I like the idea, but functionally they're exactly the same. You just represent one with lots of inbuilt Good Rep (Faction) and Peer (Faction) attributes applied directly to the dynasty.

I tend to split PF, which, per RAW represents both money/property/incomes - tangible physical assets - and favors owed, oaths of allegiance/loyalty/friendship, prestige, reputation, social/political connections - intangibles, into Profit Factor, representing the former, and Influence, representing the latter.

RAW means that there is no difference between an ancient, well respected house that's hit financial difficulties, but has lots of friends, and a more wealthy house that has no connections or anything, and is mostly despised, but has too much money to not invite to parties/ignore.

I find splitting PF and Influence allows one to better represent a Dynasty and its connections.

I like the idea, but functionally they're exactly the same. You just represent one with lots of inbuilt Good Rep (Faction) and Peer (Faction) attributes applied directly to the dynasty.

Not necessarily. Some things are easier to get with Influence than PF, or can be made cheaper through Influence.

For example, suppose you want to obtain the services of a specific Ecclesiarch or AdMech Magos for your colony. He's unlikely to volunteer, and PF can get you a generic Ecclesiarchy or AdMech Mission, but you specifically want this guy, for whatever reason, and so you use Influence to get his superiors to assign him, even if he's reluctant.

Or, you use Influence to add a colony to the Imperial Navy patrol routes. Or to remove it from the patrol routes if you're up to something illegal there. Be it your own colony or a rival's.

Or you use Influence to cause problems for a rival. PF is traceable - because anybody you buy can get turned, but Influence doesn't have that risk. On the other hand, using PF gets you pretty much exactly what you asked for, whereas Influence is less under your direct control.

You want information about someone/something? PF is spreading money around to bribe informants or buy/bribe your way into temporary database access. Influence is using who you know to get that information - and will usually get more detailed/in depth information/more secrets - after all, somebody you know has been looking into the subject of the inquiry for a while now, they've already gone past what is readily available.

Or, suppose you're trying to get the Battlefleet or the AdMech to open up the mothballed/reserve/confiscated ships for you to get a new one. PF will get you limited access, and the available ships/hulls generally won't be in the best condition. Influence, on the other hand, will get you access to the ships that are in good condition, and will get you access to more capable hulls with more advanced technology.

Or, say you're looking for a Pattern-X plasma pistol. Fail the availability check. PF might not find one for sale. Influence says sure, there's not a Pattern-X for sale, but here's where you can find a Pattern-Y plasma pistol, or gives you a lead on where you might be able to do something to obtain a Pattern-X.

That's the thing though, PF isn't any more tracable than influence is. If you know what you're doing with front companies and cat's paws, then you can get stuff done just like you can with influence, and influence can be traced back too unless it's got degrees of separation.

For the things you're stating, I'd say you need good rep or peer, plus a decent PF roll.

PF isn't just liquid or tangible assets, it's EVERYTHING that pours into making your dynasty rich. It's the people willing to loan you money, the people willing to back your venture, the people willing to join up on a moment's notice. PF is far, far, far more than simple monetary resources. It is, in many ways, a reputation all on it's own.

The Navy isn't going to go out of it's way to help protect the colonies of a low PF, but high Influence dynasty. Why? Because of returns. Sure. That guy is friends of a friends of some admiral, but his colony is NOT likely to provide returns for the very real benefits of the Navy's protection. They need to protect places that are of actual value to the Navy first and foremost. They're going to have specific patrol routes for a reason, and if your dynasty isn't rich enough to make it worth their while, you REALLY think they're going to stop patroling an extremely valuable (rival to you) mining operation that supplies them regularly? Just as a favor? Hell no.

Same thing with the Admech. Just because they like you, masters of logic that they are, they're not going to give up brand spanking new ships and CERTAINLY not mothballed elder ships into somebody's hands who can make good on returns for them. (Seriously, those don't even exist I think... ships that are built are too valuable to leave unused, even the Navy auctions off it's vessels to PDF's and merchant houses and such when it upgrades, in the Edge of the Abyss they talk about how the breaking yards are incredibly rare in the imperium due to the scarcity with which a ship is totally decomissioned, and when they are, they're taken entirely to parts, not mothballed)

The point is, that once you reach certain levels of power, influence matters, but not nearly as much as what you can DO for other people. Your influence isn't the same thing as it is in Dark Heresy, where influence is "that dude is my brother, and that other dude owes me a favor or three, and I saved that dude's life once". It's where you are a political POWER BLOC in and of yourself. Sure, you might have saved Admiral So and So's life, and that means he'll try to save your ass if he can and there's nothing more pressing, but HE'S a political power bloc TOO. He's got responsibilities to HIS underlings. He can't just go out and give massive resources and help to some dude who saved his life without a good chance of there being resources in return, let alone some dude who's just a friend of a friend.

That's why we have peer, and good reputation for things, not an influence roll. Because at the level of a rogue trader, you are dealing with people who have GOT to see returns on their investments and help. They can't just go out giving favors, because they have responsibilities they have to see, whether it's a Magos trying to expand the knowledge of man and the influence of the machine cult, a navy admiral who has to see to the defense of a sector, or a noble of a single planet who needs to see to the needs of his people (so they, in turn, can pay their taxes, which lets him further cement his own position and protect and serve them).

Thus, you can't divorce PF from these things. PF IS influence, because it represents what your house can DO. People don't give a **** about YOU the rogue trade except in so far as it effects what they can get your DYNASTY and the vast resources it commands to do.

Basically, think of it as if you're the head of a nation state. The King of A and the President of B are good friends, they go out and have golf, drinks, etc. They are well inclinded to one another personally. That means they have Peer (B) and Peer (A) respectively. It'll give a bonus to PF checks.

But let's say B, as a nation, only has a profit factor of 20. The King of A might be VERY much, personally, invested in the President of B's wellbeing, even his nation's wellbeing. But he has responsibilities to A. He can't waste resources on B, which in turn might weaken his own nation of A and render those in his care vulnerable, without a REALLY good reason, or some hope of recompense in the future. That means if B is in dire straights, then there's a good chance that the King of A can't in good conscience lend any support without some sort of serious tangible benefit. That can be done by roleplaying a situation "I hate the ****** attacking you and if you die then I lose a buffer zone", but it can also be done with PF "B will pay A a buttload of resources and favorable trade agreements if it'll get our bacon out of the fire," which is the PF roll.

Influence can't properly be translated into that situation because how much political clout the two have is completely linked into how powerful they are as NATIONS, plus the current set of EVENTS surrounding them.

Interestingly enough if I was a player I would "park" myself at a setting like Port Wander or Foorfall and just do Aquisition Tests all day long - ignoring "adventure" until I was power-gamey enough to come out with digital wepaons, melta pistols, power armor, and all the other tactically superior nonsense in order to make myself into something the GM would have a hard time killing - that way I could steamroll over any challenges presented and gloat about it afterwards like I'm the shhht. LOL

Cheesy: In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time. The term is widely used both in video games and tabletop games alike.

Sounds exciting. I'd chase rumors of fantastic wealth, influence, and power, relying on my skill and intelligence to win through where my cheese failed. But hey, to each their own.

Interestingly enough if I was a player I would "park" myself at a setting like Port Wander or Foorfall and just do Aquisition Tests all day long - ignoring "adventure" until I was power-gamey enough to come out with digital wepaons, melta pistols, power armor, and all the other tactically superior nonsense in order to make myself into something the GM would have a hard time killing - that way I could steamroll over any challenges presented and gloat about it afterwards like I'm the shhht. LOL

Cheesy: In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time. The term is widely used both in video games and tabletop games alike.

Okay! You start off with 50 PF, just for sake of argument. Jokero Digi-weapons are unique, so you get a -30 to your test (-60 from the rarity, +30 because you just want one.)

You roll a 72, fail. Port Wander has no jokero weapons. So, you figure, hey, I'll try and buy a melta! Well, now, your roll has an additional -10 from the previous roll, and I as the GM rolls on the percentage chance that you throwing around PF has drawn nasty attention.

So, you keep buying things, and keep getting -10s, and I keep rolling on the nasty attention percentage chance, and before you know it, the inquisition is knocking on your door saying: "hey, since you're clearly kitting out for something major, maybe you wouldn't mind dealing with a minor demon prince problem..."

PF is awesome!

But...it has its limits.

We use heavily modified version of PF rules, as we're kinda at the point of fighting thousands xenos ships and employing ancient fleets of Van Dire (It's a Looooong story.) We needed something to limit the purchases, so I created a Strain mechanic (that's basically a pretty complicated way of saying money). Here you go:

(if something is unclear, just give me a heads up, the rules were designed for internal use so there may be some unclear parts).

https://word.office.live.com/wv/WordView.aspx?FBsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fattachments%2Ffile_preview.php%3Fid%3D1411048852534893%26time%3D1426716635%26metadata&access_token=100002940124653%3AAVK_xY1CGpVMrx8o-1gKueAw0ix6FZJE2lvUoaHqmRn01w&title=Acquisition_by_Elavion.docx

I modify how achievement points work. Because with ship components, +1 PF per 100 points gets crazy fast.

In my current campaign, I use the progression:

100 points for first point of PF, 200 points for second, 300 points for third, etc.

For my next campaign, I'll either use that or a neat houserule I spotted elsewhere. 1 PF per *1000* achievement points, but leftover points count towards the next endeavour. It encourages more endeavours.

Ummm

Interestingly enough if I was a player I would "park" myself at a setting like Port Wander or Foorfall and just do Aquisition Tests all day long - ignoring "adventure" until I was power-gamey enough to come out with digital wepaons, melta pistols, power armor, and all the other tactically superior nonsense in order to make myself into something the GM would have a hard time killing - that way I could steamroll over any challenges presented and gloat about it afterwards like I'm the shhht. LOL

Cheesy: In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time. The term is widely used both in video games and tabletop games alike.

Okay! You start off with 50 PF, just for sake of argument. Jokero Digi-weapons are unique, so you get a -30 to your test (-60 from the rarity, +30 because you just want one.)

You roll a 72, fail. Port Wander has no jokero weapons. So, you figure, hey, I'll try and buy a melta! Well, now, your roll has an additional -10 from the previous roll, and I as the GM rolls on the percentage chance that you throwing around PF has drawn nasty attention.

So, you keep buying things, and keep getting -10s, and I keep rolling on the nasty attention percentage chance, and before you know it, the inquisition is knocking on your door saying: "hey, since you're clearly kitting out for something major, maybe you wouldn't mind dealing with a minor demon prince problem..."

PF is awesome!

But...it has its limits.

Umm near unique and unique items get no bonus for quantity so in your example it would be a straight -60% to your 50% PF, still possible with a good commerce test before the acquisition and your player rolls outstandingly low, like a natural 01.

Interestingly enough if I was a player I would "park" myself at a setting like Port Wander or Foorfall and just do Aquisition Tests all day long - ignoring "adventure" until I was power-gamey enough to come out with digital wepaons, melta pistols, power armor, and all the other tactically superior nonsense in order to make myself into something the GM would have a hard time killing - that way I could steamroll over any challenges presented and gloat about it afterwards like I'm the shhht. LOL

Cheesy: In a gaming scene the word cheese is used to describe strategies or ways of playing that are really powerful and do not require much skill from the players side at the same time. The term is widely used both in video games and tabletop games alike.

With the expanded acquisition rolls in Into The Storm, you could only do one acquisition per session safely. And even without those, no sane GM should allow infinite acquisition rolls per session.

And the reason I say per session is the misfortunes table. By RAW, that's meant to be rolled once every session. So PF is at best going to stay stable, and that's with running to stay in the same place.

Also, there's fantastic loot out in the Koronus Expanse. Unique gear that simply cannot be bought for any price. See Stars of Inquity for more examples.

At this time - for me as GM its all about "availability"

For instance - lets use the example that came up in my game "Inferno Pistol, Mars Pattern (or heck any other pattern)...

First question to ask yourself as GM is who, what, where, why, and how (like any good author)

Lets go with my favorite city " Footfall "

Who has these types of weapons? (mercs, merchants, admech / heretek, plebeians; the list goes on...)

What are they doing with this weapon or weapons? (they don't necessarily need to be using them or even selling them on the market)

Where did the weapon or weapon originate from (not meaning its pattern more like how did fate bring this supposedly ultra rare weapon here to Footfall)

Why is the weapon here? (is it to fulfill a particular purpose, is it a stolen gift now being sold, is it salvage, etc...)

How do your players gain access / i.e. make this available to themselves...

Seeing as the Imperium isn't a convenient place for alot of things including trade; logistics including things like vast distances, trouble with communicating, dangers of the void both sentient and not... etc.

In most cases I treat such trappings as "Prizes"

In the best case scenario your PF can "buy" it outright / otherwise my preferred method for both game balancing and player action; your PF makes the information available to you - now go get it via an "adventure"

ATM in my campaign all the characters are veterans with at least 10 years time ( see bottom for example ) plying the stars (that's just my player default); with that my Arch-Militant has lore he came into the game with (that I created) detailing certain prizes across the stars... this allows my players to create a "shopping list" of things they'd like to have - I need review the list and create knowledge based content / lore associated to said prize - SEE BELOW

Generally - I allow 1 Prize per 2 Ranks so by Rank 8 said character has 4 perfect/awesome/best-matched-item-per-career, whatever; so that by the end of the day even at max Rank the game system herein still has challenges without the game ramp up to only epic challenges - like some other RPGs who have "high level play" ( my high level d&d character isn't challenged by anything below 5th level, comes to mind as something I heard once lol)

Again this doesn't eliminate your option to buy ( as per the vanilla of the book ) but rather lets you as a player take some control of your fate and explore and conquer for yours! ("for yours" meaning for your best or rarest gear )

EXAMPLE

For me I would like to see PCs end up with ONE Special Item per Level (aka the equivalent of Magic Items in D&D).

So by the end of the day when you’ve maxed out a character you’ve got 8 Objects of Significance

What this means

Carrot & Stick (side missions)

You can try and find for instance an Ancient Power Sword (Best Quality) using the whole system of Acquisition in order to do so – which we all know is a gamble (Core Book Page-272).

By a GM delivering content that matches a Player Character’s desire, power level, and such – this ensures you not only gain availability to a key item but also gives the GM more content by which to inject adventure!

Galvin Remington’s hears through the tall tales and conjecture of his armsmen rumor and myth regarding

Galvin Remington (like all other characters beginning of the game is a veteran warrior of countless engagements and action. He had been active in the Galaxy for over 30 years prior to meeting and joining with the Dynasty) – what this means is your characters should have a good working knowledge of YEARS worth of travel or otherwise… It is from this knowledge base that I will extrapolate ideas in order to deliver quality (side missions) content…

The Questor is a <Best> Bolt Pistol (Ceres) once carried by Commissar Kirchner (a hero of Saint Drusus) which now lay in the Hands of one Dalmascan Hollick; a pirate captain of the Strahl. He and his companion, Viera, prefer to remain outside of politics, making their living off of whomever has the most for the taking. He left the service of the empire, stole an a void ship, and took a new name. Hollick is now a renowned career criminal with a sizable bounty on his head, and must be careful to avoid the attention of both the law and the bounty hunters seeking the reward for his capture. The gun was taken from its resting place on the Shrine World of Sentinel - standing at the rimward limits of the Calixis Sector, a dedicated world of the Ecclesiarchy who revere Saint Drusus.

The Kojima Shell is a suit of <best> Power Armor that served its master in the Nova Terra Interregnum (M35); when the Imperium of Man fractured for a time into warring factions for over 900 standard years during the mid-34th through the late-35th Millennium. This suit is now displayed according to record on the vessel Absolutium in the Flight Hanger as a reminder to its crew of the sacrifices performed in order to hold the line. This voidship is under the command of Mishima Akushon Kojima descendant of Rēzā Kojima… The recorded ship logs of Port Wander report the Absolutium

The Fire of Hazeroth ; this reputed trophy lay (i.e. a renowned <best> Flamer) in the hands of Odin Aberdeen – champion of Imperial Guard squad the Fifty Thieves; he was commanded by Gene “Galleyclear” Gorman. The squad was lost 60 to 90 years prior in the Rubycon II Subsystem – the Guard had been called in to strike against an interceding world fallen out of Empire influence (The Siege of Fallen Skies). For the lords of that day thought they knew better; the three worlds of Iachadiel Hegemony knew great strife and wanton action during those days when they were laid low. Today these worlds are little better than war wracked spheres of uncertain rumor.

P.S. If you’re going to email me your idea of an item you want to get, at least do your 40k research (either the back of the book or via wiki or otherwise) and get your location, time period, and concerns correct (I did do some research in order to submit some of the above) as I want to avoid munchkin drek LOL

Under that pretense I don’t expect much submissions LOL (sets the bar high, right above your brow, can you clear that?)

Example of Munchkin Drek: There’s this Storm Bolter that so and so carried and whichevertime and he died in a VERY convenient spot by which I can get to anytime I feel like it without a hassle or worry, plus I’m the only person in the universe that knows about it – so I’m extra special! LMFO Also its super powerful and kills anything and lets me hit just about automatically ROTFL <ZING>

FIN

I do believe after running RT two times now that the acquisition rules set now are cold, random and to my players incredibly bland, I simply let them acquire notable items, this seemed like a good idea as I was focused on the multiple plot shenanigans and was quite interested on having significantly powerful players.

Alas they are powerful but the items mean nothing to me or them, the above is a good way to remedy that, I shall keep this in mind, but my players love handouts so lets hope they take to the new method =D

Edit: Perhaps the acquisition rules are not entirely to blame, its far too easy to find incredibly rare items when surrounded by millions of sweaty voiders.

See my link below for more info on PF house rules. It's located in my House Rules section. The "New Profit Rating" doc is what I use, while the "Profit Description" doc is just what it says it is, a description of profit factor. Only used the later as more fluff than anything.

Note: Profit Rating means Profit Factor. An old group of mine got me saying PR instead of PF, for some odd reason. And it's since stuck with me.

From my post about Random Event Generator;

A more granular approach to awarding and taking away Profit

G.A.I.N.S. & Resources

What are G.A.I.N.S.?

"Gains" is a Ten-character acronym for dealing with incremental wealth that is less than a Profit Factor Point; in our case its representative of 10% of an actual PF Point. When you receive a Gain it is marked off by the player as a letter (think Hangman) and a dot; as you increase that subset of wealth / influence more of the acronym is spelled out until finally a whole point (when the whole word of G.A.I.N.S. is fully spelled out) of Profit Factor is achieved.

I did not invent this concept but rather borrowed from the original author (who used the word acronym PROFIT EQUATING TO 1/6th a PF Point) who posted their idea online here on this forum...