Paul Heaver won Worlds with a Fat Han with Predator and double droids. Around the same time, wave 5 hit which has made the meta even more big shippish. I think Paul´s list was made to beat other Falcons, so it should do fine against other bigs. In the final he took out a Whisper build, so even though it doesn´t pack a gunner it can still hold its own.

So, what gives? I would have thought you would see the winning list at Worlds pop up here and there in tournament results, but you don´t find it anywhere. Did Paul Heaver get a patent for it or did something in wave 5 completely ruin this build concept?

Fat Han and 3 Zs is still a really strong list. I think you've got a lot of people right now that are just flying other things because the Wave 5 ships are new. If you are looking for the exact list that Paul ran, that list has always been rare and if you aren't expecting a lot of Fat Han mirror matches may not be the best Fat Han variant to run against other things.

Double droids works well against other Fat Hans because you are counting stopping three damage a round, your opponent will only be stopping two. As long as you keep him out of range one and don't lose actions bumping an asteroid you'll eventually win. Against a Decimator you are better off just trying to pile on as much damage as you can (and he'll likely have a Phantom so Gunner is nice) and a Decimator with Expose is capable of getting damage through the double droids at all ranges. Dash with the HLC is also able to punch through the droids and Gunner is going to be stronger for dealing with his most popular wingman, Corran Horn.

Did Paul Heaver get a patent for it or did something in wave 5 completely ruin this build concept?

Not at all, it is just not very fun to fly compared to say, Dash, The Rear-Admiral, Oicunn, etc.

Maybe people prefer to come up with something themselves, instead of just slavishly copying what won.

Well, you see plenty of other lists that are copies of what is popular at the moment (Super Dash, Whisper/5Ties etc). This particular Fat Han you really hardly see anywhere. With the new tournament results databases you can really go through a lot of lists, so you see what pops up occasionally and what hardly ever gets played.

I do agree that it seems like a rather boring list to play since it relies on slowly winning the last big ship duel on the table. Luke/gunner gives a lit more "zing" because it can really blow things up I suppose.

It's because everyone's running Arvel!!

No wait that's just me...

There will always be a shift in the gaming meta as new ships come out. Pauls list is still very good but gets over shadowed by some of the newer things. After all we are only a year removed from Biggs Walks the Doggs and where is that list now?

Maybe people prefer to come up with something themselves, instead of just slavishly copying what won.

No they don't. People want to win and will in most situations shamelessly copy a winning list.

Maybe people prefer to come up with something themselves, instead of just slavishly copying what won.

No they don't. People want to win and will in most situations shamelessly copy a winning list.

Thankfully they seldom know how to fly the list as well as the guy/gal who created it. But yes, net-listing is a (albeit minor) thing in X-Wing.

I dunno i'm making a point to fly Imps in tourneys despite knowing some fantastic reb lists, which I am good with. I refuse to use the firespray as I don't consider it an imp ship and I am trying to avoid phantoms because well, they are almost cliche.

I made a friend hate playing me with my goldswarms and phantoms so I try other stuff to keep fresh.

Maybe people prefer to come up with something themselves, instead of just slavishly copying what won.

No they don't. People want to win and will in most situations shamelessly copy a winning list.

Call it what you will... 'slavishly', net-listing, shamelessly copy, whatever. But I seldom get a chance to play but still love the game. I had no idea that Mison and R7 was a default build and most likely no new player will know there's a refit for A-Wings without being told.

Net-Listing or shamelessly coping builds is the best way to get pickup games with new and/or inexperienced players.

Just my two cents.

I do not think that list is going anywhere until at least Scum comes out. Sure, everyone has their hands on the Decimator and Dash now, but neither of these two ships did anything to hurt Fat Han in my opinion. He still shoots first, he can still boost last with a turreted large based ship and arc dodge, he can get within R1 of the doughnut of doom where Dash can't shoot him, and he can dish out enough damage to cripple a VT-49.

Make no mistake, while it may not be in vogue right now, it most certainly is still a deadly list!

I really just think people enjoying running lists more that they come up with themselves and have experience flying the ships their most comfortable with. My goal in X - wing is to run lists that no one has ever thought of or tried. I like bringing uniqueness to the game because thats how i have fun with it. My first tournament i ran a net list and I did well. But i enjoy doing well with Lists people don't expect to do well. I came in Second during a big tournament running a XYBA list all generics loaded with upgrades. All im trying to say is Screw The Meta Bull crap and play what you want to play.

Maybe people prefer to come up with something themselves, instead of just slavishly copying what won.

I see you have yet to venture into the wonderful world of card games

Maybe because many people are very anti-fat han, and even though it's super strong build choose not to use it.

I will run this build to the ground or double yt1300s, in every competitive scene I always do the tanks bulky list. It's just a preference. People don't always want to run their own builds, some people prefer to net-squad or do a cookie cutter version of it to stay competitive.

Me personally, I'm working on making three E-Wings competitive. I'm 0-1 right now, but my casualty count consists of taking down a Super Dash in that match. Just couldn't clean up the support.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever run Han in a match of any kind.

i take popular builds and tweak them. 54 dash with 2 red squadron pilots is my current jam

i take popular builds and tweak them. 54 dash with 2 red squadron pilots is my current jam

Interesting. Any particular reason why you don't run two Daggers with that? And what is the composition of your 54 Dash?

i take popular builds and tweak them. 54 dash with 2 red squadron pilots is my current jam

Interesting. Any particular reason why you don't run two Daggers with that? And what is the composition of your 54 Dash?

to avoid predator/ i dont own 2 daggers. the x wings can also keep pace and protecct the donut with dash a little better, since i wouldnt have enough point to advance sensor both the daggers.

dash is ptl/outrider/hlc/kyle katarn. ptl makes him a little predictable, but kyle keeps his action economy high

OP, mostly people are super sick of Fat Han. It's legal, it's effective, it's strong, anything goes in tournaments, blah blah blah, but it's super boring to play and play against. It's not even fun enough to spur the competitive juices to try to beat it; it's just a boring, lowest common denominator list that literally anyone can run with reasonable success and that great players can abuse to create situations where it's virtually impossible to lose. That's not to let the Phantom off the hook, as it was a huge dagger to typical "jousting" ship builds, but the preponderance of Falcons (and now YT2400s and Decimators) has greatly curtailed them. Our entire group was completely burned out by the boring Falcon/Phantom/Turret meta and took a couple months off from the game entirely during the holidays. Frankly, it's a **** shame, as the Falcon is so iconic, but it actually makes me annoyed to see it played or use it because of what it has become. Pre-orders of Outriders and Decimators literally sat unopened for most of that time and we played other games exclusively.

I've got my first tournament in awhile coming up and to be honest, even after 2 months off, I'm still not very enthused by getting back into the game. Tournaments have been very good to me, but my continued interest in the tournament scene will be directly related to how many turreted large ships, and Fat Falcons in specific, are there. If that's all I see (which is largely all I'm seeing when I have looked at recent local tournament results), my hiatus will continue until there's something less boring as competition. I got into this as a dogfighting game and turrets have reduced maneuver from the priority skill to third tier at best, behind dice manipulation/ignoring and list min/maxing. I am hoping this is just a prolonged snag for X-Wing and am somewhat encouraged by the direction of Scum and TIE/Adv, but we'll see. I want to remain optimistic, but that may not happen until Scum is released.

OP, mostly people are super sick of Fat Han. It's legal, it's effective, it's strong, anything goes in tournaments, blah blah blah, but it's super boring to play and play against. It's not even fun enough to spur the competitive juices to try to beat it; it's just a boring, lowest common denominator list that literally anyone can run with reasonable success and that great players can abuse to create situations where it's virtually impossible to lose. That's not to let the Phantom off the hook, as it was a huge dagger to typical "jousting" ship builds, but the preponderance of Falcons (and now YT2400s and Decimators) has greatly curtailed them. Our entire group was completely burned out by the boring Falcon/Phantom/Turret meta and took a couple months off from the game entirely during the holidays. Frankly, it's a **** shame, as the Falcon is so iconic, but it actually makes me annoyed to see it played or use it because of what it has become. Pre-orders of Outriders and Decimators literally sat unopened for most of that time and we played other games exclusively.

I've got my first tournament in awhile coming up and to be honest, even after 2 months off, I'm still not very enthused by getting back into the game. Tournaments have been very good to me, but my continued interest in the tournament scene will be directly related to how many turreted large ships, and Fat Falcons in specific, are there. If that's all I see (which is largely all I'm seeing when I have looked at recent local tournament results), my hiatus will continue until there's something less boring as competition. I got into this as a dogfighting game and turrets have reduced maneuver from the priority skill to third tier at best, behind dice manipulation/ignoring and list min/maxing. I am hoping this is just a prolonged snag for X-Wing and am somewhat encouraged by the direction of Scum and TIE/Adv, but we'll see. I want to remain optimistic, but that may not happen until Scum is released.

Paul Heaver won Worlds with a Fat Han with Predator and double droids. Around the same time, wave 5 hit which has made the meta even more big shippish. I think Paul´s list was made to beat other Falcons, so it should do fine against other bigs. In the final he took out a Whisper build, so even though it doesn´t pack a gunner it can still hold its own.

So, what gives? I would have thought you would see the winning list at Worlds pop up here and there in tournament results, but you don´t find it anywhere. Did Paul Heaver get a patent for it or did something in wave 5 completely ruin this build concept?

I have seen it played twice by one of the best players in my local meta and both time I defeated it while flying Empire. My own observations concerning that list are:

- It's not as much fun to play with or against (and it's not part of the new toys that we got / will be getting)

- While powerful, I have observed that this list does take a solid plan and a lot of practice to use effectively. It only takes a couple of mistakes for its synergy to backfire (it is not an "I Win" button, not by a long shot).

I think that what made that list powerful was its unique combination of survival power AND that Paul Heaver was the one piloting it... after putting a crap ton of practice into it. I don't know about your local metas, but in my neck of the woods, people don't bring out their Yt-1300 during the friendly games for fear of alienating their opponents (which is a shame because then they can't really practice for tournaments).

Maybe people prefer to come up with something themselves, instead of just slavishly copying what won.

No they don't. People want to win and will in most situations shamelessly copy a winning list.

Thankfully they seldom know how to fly the list as well as the guy/gal who created it. But yes, net-listing is a (albeit minor) thing in X-Wing.

I fully admit that I use these forums to get ideas for stuff that looks fun. The Fleet Officer thread directly led to me flying an OGP/AdvSens/FO shuttle, and I'm excited to try a variant of the Alabastor Hippo Ballet once Autothrusters hits now that I have three shuttles.