The Golden Throne as irreparable is the easy part. It slowly breaks down over the next few decades/centuries/millenia. The game won't last that long.

I've been wondering if the creators (if they still have control, I don't know) are simply retiring and looking for a way out without giving up their baby, and want to do like another game company did and just destroy their creation in a giant apocalypse. I mean, how long will Warhammer go on? Will it outlive its creators? Who would inherit the rights? Do they want to administer a genre estate?

I wouldn't mind a reset scenario where humanity is broken into a bunch of little empires. Of course, that means they'd have to tone down some of the uber-badness of the Imperium's many enemies, and a general apocalypse might do that very well indeed.

An easy wrap up, or perhaps re-boot, would be to actually kill the Emperor. Let the psychic death rattle kill billions of astropaths and navigators - grinding interstellar communication and transportation nigh impossible. The Imperium of would fracture into tiny pocket Imperiums. This would allow essentially a soft reboot because you could simply advance the timeline 5-10 millennia with nary more than a hand-wave. Welcome to Warhammer 50K, *******... buy our new models.

When the story picks back up, GW could literally write a new universe.

The Golden Throne as irreparable is the easy part. It slowly breaks down over the next few decades/centuries/millenia. The game won't last that long.

I've been wondering if the creators (if they still have control, I don't know) are simply retiring and looking for a way out without giving up their baby, and want to do like another game company did and just destroy their creation in a giant apocalypse. I mean, how long will Warhammer go on? Will it outlive its creators? Who would inherit the rights? Do they want to administer a genre estate?

I wouldn't mind a reset scenario where humanity is broken into a bunch of little empires. Of course, that means they'd have to tone down some of the uber-badness of the Imperium's many enemies, and a general apocalypse might do that very well indeed.

An easy wrap up, or perhaps re-boot, would be to actually kill the Emperor. Let the psychic death rattle kill billions of astropaths and navigators - grinding interstellar communication and transportation nigh impossible. The Imperium of would fracture into tiny pocket Imperiums. This would allow essentially a soft reboot because you could simply advance the timeline 5-10 millennia with nary more than a hand-wave. Welcome to Warhammer 50K, *******... buy our new models.

When the story picks back up, GW could literally write a new universe.

Can't kill off interstellar travel or communications for a while. Tyranids would have nothing to stop them from eating the Ultrasmurfs. And we know how much GW (and the writers) loves them some Ultrasmurfs.

It'd be Chaos versus Tyranids versus Orks, versus Awakened Necrons (the warp shockwave from the Emperor's death would probably trip the activation sequences on lots of tomb worlds), versus Eldar remnants (the Emperor's death shockwave would be unpleasant for the universally psychic Eldar).

A breakup scenario works slightly better, imo, if some of the Missing Primarchs get found/rediscovered/come back. They would not approve of the Imperium as it stands. That causes internal divisions between those who hold to the status quo, and those who embrace the new direction of the Primarch(s).

Or one or both of the Forgotten Primarchs makes a reappearance. Presumably, they got secretly sent on a very long extra-galactic expedition, perhaps in search of a DAoT expedition. They could come back with tech, resources, perhaps they made contact with a surviving DAoT civilization, or maybe just one that left its remnants in better shape.

The Golden Throne as irreparable is the easy part. It slowly breaks down over the next few decades/centuries/millenia. The game won't last that long.

I've been wondering if the creators (if they still have control, I don't know) are simply retiring and looking for a way out without giving up their baby, and want to do like another game company did and just destroy their creation in a giant apocalypse. I mean, how long will Warhammer go on? Will it outlive its creators? Who would inherit the rights? Do they want to administer a genre estate?

I wouldn't mind a reset scenario where humanity is broken into a bunch of little empires. Of course, that means they'd have to tone down some of the uber-badness of the Imperium's many enemies, and a general apocalypse might do that very well indeed.

An easy wrap up, or perhaps re-boot, would be to actually kill the Emperor. Let the psychic death rattle kill billions of astropaths and navigators - grinding interstellar communication and transportation nigh impossible. The Imperium of would fracture into tiny pocket Imperiums. This would allow essentially a soft reboot because you could simply advance the timeline 5-10 millennia with nary more than a hand-wave. Welcome to Warhammer 50K, *******... buy our new models.

When the story picks back up, GW could literally write a new universe.

Can't kill off interstellar travel or communications for a while. Tyranids would have nothing to stop them from eating the Ultrasmurfs. And we know how much GW (and the writers) loves them some Ultrasmurfs.

It'd be Chaos versus Tyranids versus Orks, versus Awakened Necrons (the warp shockwave from the Emperor's death would probably trip the activation sequences on lots of tomb worlds), versus Eldar remnants (the Emperor's death shockwave would be unpleasant for the universally psychic Eldar).

A breakup scenario works slightly better, imo, if some of the Missing Primarchs get found/rediscovered/come back. They would not approve of the Imperium as it stands. That causes internal divisions between those who hold to the status quo, and those who embrace the new direction of the Primarch(s).

Or one or both of the Forgotten Primarchs makes a reappearance. Presumably, they got secretly sent on a very long extra-galactic expedition, perhaps in search of a DAoT expedition. They could come back with tech, resources, perhaps they made contact with a surviving DAoT civilization, or maybe just one that left its remnants in better shape.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the generally accepted belief that the 'Nids are "flying" towards the Astronomican. So... if the Emprah dies, the Astronomican shuts off... and the 'Nids go just as blind as everyone else does.

The Golden Throne as irreparable is the easy part. It slowly breaks down over the next few decades/centuries/millenia. The game won't last that long.

I've been wondering if the creators (if they still have control, I don't know) are simply retiring and looking for a way out without giving up their baby, and want to do like another game company did and just destroy their creation in a giant apocalypse. I mean, how long will Warhammer go on? Will it outlive its creators? Who would inherit the rights? Do they want to administer a genre estate?

I wouldn't mind a reset scenario where humanity is broken into a bunch of little empires. Of course, that means they'd have to tone down some of the uber-badness of the Imperium's many enemies, and a general apocalypse might do that very well indeed.

An easy wrap up, or perhaps re-boot, would be to actually kill the Emperor. Let the psychic death rattle kill billions of astropaths and navigators - grinding interstellar communication and transportation nigh impossible. The Imperium of would fracture into tiny pocket Imperiums. This would allow essentially a soft reboot because you could simply advance the timeline 5-10 millennia with nary more than a hand-wave. Welcome to Warhammer 50K, *******... buy our new models.

When the story picks back up, GW could literally write a new universe.

Can't kill off interstellar travel or communications for a while. Tyranids would have nothing to stop them from eating the Ultrasmurfs. And we know how much GW (and the writers) loves them some Ultrasmurfs.

It'd be Chaos versus Tyranids versus Orks, versus Awakened Necrons (the warp shockwave from the Emperor's death would probably trip the activation sequences on lots of tomb worlds), versus Eldar remnants (the Emperor's death shockwave would be unpleasant for the universally psychic Eldar).

A breakup scenario works slightly better, imo, if some of the Missing Primarchs get found/rediscovered/come back. They would not approve of the Imperium as it stands. That causes internal divisions between those who hold to the status quo, and those who embrace the new direction of the Primarch(s).

Or one or both of the Forgotten Primarchs makes a reappearance. Presumably, they got secretly sent on a very long extra-galactic expedition, perhaps in search of a DAoT expedition. They could come back with tech, resources, perhaps they made contact with a surviving DAoT civilization, or maybe just one that left its remnants in better shape.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the generally accepted belief that the 'Nids are "flying" towards the Astronomican. So... if the Emprah dies, the Astronomican shuts off... and the 'Nids go just as blind as everyone else does.

The Nids will still eat everything, they'll just be more inclined to spread out, instead of going in a line.

But, guess who's right in their path anyway? The Smurfs. And probably the Tau, too.

That's because they're right in the entry area for the 'Nids to the Milky Way.

Yes. They were stalemated. The imperium controlled the air, chaos controlled the ground...........and they've been standing like that ever since. Those arms and legs must be getting tired after all these years, just holding like that.

Actually, if you read through the results, chaos won both. GW duplicated several Imperial wins on different pages of the results. At the time Chaos was absurdly OP both on the ground and in BFG.

Isn't that, sortof, you know, what's being implied by everything in the setting? That's why it's so grim dark? That the Imperium is ****** because it's pressed on every single side and so many of it's most important worlds and lynch-pin systems are combated so heavily that the entire deal is starting to fall apart?

Are you saying that the current setting implies that the Imperium is already completely dead and gone? That there are no more space marines, no more Imperial Guard, no more Sisters of Battle, no more Inquisition, etc. etc.? Because otherwise, no, that is not what's implied by the setting. Dying is not the same as dead , and if the Imperium can't afford to lose a single planet they are dead , completely gone, nothing left, because they've already lost a planet and do so regularly.

Have they, or do you think, they will retconn this out?

Internet lore says they already scaled back the Chaos victory a lot when the Imperium fans (including GW's cash cow, the space marine fanboys) were in an uproar at the original decisive Chaos victory which had Chaos controlling like 2/3s of Segmentum Obscurus and marching on Holy Terra, with little chance of the Imperium being able to turn things around. It wasn't technically "game over, Chaos wins," but it was pretty **** close. I don't know if that's true, though.

I've been wondering if the creators (if they still have control, I don't know)

The original creator was Rick Priestely, he left GW in 2010.

Concerning every single "GW can't do X because then [faction] would do Y!": GW retcons this stuff all the **** time, sometimes not even to push the story forward but just because they feel like it. Matt Ward was infamous for making universally reviled retcons for no other reason except that he wanted Ultramarines and Grey Knights to be more Mary Sue. And also that one time he completely rewrote the Necrons just because. It would be entirely in keeping with GW's approach to the story to say that all astropathic communications are cut off, a new Tyranid hivefleet ten times the size of Leviathan emerges, and the Ultramarines shatter it single-handedly while completely cut off from the rest of the Imperium because they're just that awesome. Never mind that this completely contradicts the relative strength of the two factions as established in previous lore. GW doesn't care about that sort of thing.

Yes. They were stalemated. The imperium controlled the air, chaos controlled the ground...........and they've been standing like that ever since. Those arms and legs must be getting tired after all these years, just holding like that.

Actually, if you read through the results, chaos won both. GW duplicated several Imperial wins on different pages of the results. At the time Chaos was absurdly OP both on the ground and in BFG.

I will defer to you on this Baron. I only read the results online. The reference i'm using is Here: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade

@Lupa: Matt Ward rewrote the Necron fluff at the behest of his thrice damned Chaos corrupted overlords at GW! Their intention was to give the Necrons more 'personality' so that us poor sobs would by more of their now more 'colorful' models! I personally liked their old background better but there was plenty of their stuff in game that was badly broken! (Can anyone say C'Tan Nightbringer?)

@Lupa: Matt Ward rewrote the Necron fluff at the behest of his thrice damned Chaos corrupted overlords at GW! Their intention was to give the Necrons more 'personality' so that us poor sobs would by more of their now more 'colorful' models! I personally liked their old background better but there was plenty of their stuff in game that was badly broken! (Can anyone say C'Tan Nightbringer?)

Is a multi-colored Necron more or less terrifying when met in battle?

Isn't that, sortof, you know, what's being implied by everything in the setting? That's why it's so grim dark? That the Imperium is ****** because it's pressed on every single side and so many of it's most important worlds and lynch-pin systems are combated so heavily that the entire deal is starting to fall apart?

Are you saying that the current setting implies that the Imperium is already completely dead and gone? That there are no more space marines, no more Imperial Guard, no more Sisters of Battle, no more Inquisition, etc. etc.? Because otherwise, no, that is not what's implied by the setting. Dying is not the same as dead , and if the Imperium can't afford to lose a single planet they are dead , completely gone, nothing left, because they've already lost a planet and do so regularly.

Have they, or do you think, they will retconn this out?

Internet lore says they already scaled back the Chaos victory a lot when the Imperium fans (including GW's cash cow, the space marine fanboys) were in an uproar at the original decisive Chaos victory which had Chaos controlling like 2/3s of Segmentum Obscurus and marching on Holy Terra, with little chance of the Imperium being able to turn things around. It wasn't technically "game over, Chaos wins," but it was pretty **** close. I don't know if that's true, though.

I've been wondering if the creators (if they still have control, I don't know)

The original creator was Rick Priestely, he left GW in 2010.

Concerning every single "GW can't do X because then [faction] would do Y!": GW retcons this stuff all the **** time, sometimes not even to push the story forward but just because they feel like it. Matt Ward was infamous for making universally reviled retcons for no other reason except that he wanted Ultramarines and Grey Knights to be more Mary Sue. And also that one time he completely rewrote the Necrons just because. It would be entirely in keeping with GW's approach to the story to say that all astropathic communications are cut off, a new Tyranid hivefleet ten times the size of Leviathan emerges, and the Ultramarines shatter it single-handedly while completely cut off from the rest of the Imperium because they're just that awesome. Never mind that this completely contradicts the relative strength of the two factions as established in previous lore. GW doesn't care about that sort of thing.

At the risk of just being a fan-boy, at least it was the Ultramarines, and not another "oh, look at the Blood Angels! Space Wolves!" I suppose that they, and the Dark Angels, are cool, but they get so much extra BS because they have unique codices, and numerous "oh, piece of candy!" additions that, while nice, I don't see why they are unique. I could sit here, and make jokes about Blood Angels, but nope. Viva la Ultramarines!

Yes. They were stalemated. The imperium controlled the air, chaos controlled the ground...........and they've been standing like that ever since. Those arms and legs must be getting tired after all these years, just holding like that.

Actually, if you read through the results, chaos won both. GW duplicated several Imperial wins on different pages of the results. At the time Chaos was absurdly OP both on the ground and in BFG.

I will defer to you on this Baron. I only read the results online. The reference i'm using is Here: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade

@Lupa: Matt Ward rewrote the Necron fluff at the behest of his thrice damned Chaos corrupted overlords at GW! Their intention was to give the Necrons more 'personality' so that us poor sobs would by more of their now more 'colorful' models! I personally liked their old background better but there was plenty of their stuff in game that was badly broken! (Can anyone say C'Tan Nightbringer?)

I can say "4++ save", which was all that C'Tan had. I remember when I played Eldar and Oldcrons in '04, and could never figure out why they were SO easy to destroy. Everything shoots, and thus at them; at least the C'Tan blows up. Still, there were some wicked broken things you could do, like Lord + Orb + Veil and a squad of Immortals/Destroyers/HDs. Can we say bye bye tanks? And Veil was a repeat use thing, to anywhere on the field. Unlike every other "Deep Striker", they could also get back up from all the withering fire they were going to receive in turn, to thus Veil again.

@Lupa: Matt Ward rewrote the Necron fluff at the behest of his thrice damned Chaos corrupted overlords at GW! Their intention was to give the Necrons more 'personality' so that us poor sobs would by more of their now more 'colorful' models! I personally liked their old background better but there was plenty of their stuff in game that was badly broken! (Can anyone say C'Tan Nightbringer?)

Is a multi-colored Necron more or less terrifying when met in battle?

Depends, do you recall the Eldar of Craftworld Skittles?

Sun Tzu told his employers that an expenditure of 10% of the military budget should be spent on gathering information and making sure that your opponents can't do the same (i.e. spies and saboteurs). Now I'm not suggesting that the Imperium does that, but consider the implications.

Intelligence in military operations is always a good idea but we’re talking about the Imperium here. Knowledge is a closely guarded secret. Imperial forces are routinely forbidden information which would make them far more effective because some wanker with a puritan’s hat for example feels they can’t handle knowing Orks are actually pretty strong and yes, their weapons do work.

So having a high command which is both logical and efficient is rather implausible, as are temples or ordos focused on intelligence gathering. The Imperium is too focused on burning books to value intelligence and knowledge. Appreciating local intelligence just doesn’t fit the theme of medieval space opera with a paranoid, ignorant society consistently blundering into situations any sane 5 year old could have either foreseen or prevented.

Only War mentions an intelligence corps under Lord Marshal Ganzorik using predictions and logic engines etc. while ignoring actual field data. And being purged after failing because they sent 20 IG regiments on a conquest mission without noticing millions of Orks.

Besides, how would spies get the information out of the system? They’d need a huge vox system to broadcast within the system and that would set off the defenders…And astropath messages (if they could even send these) are too weird and vague to send strategic targeting data.

I just don’t see this happening.

Well, at least the baddies are often just as ignorant. If you aren't fighting Tau, Eldar, or Crons, you're probably fighting morons, and even the Necrons and Nids, who have amazing capacity to collate various local field data rarely care enough about individual units to actually STRATEGIZE beyond the bigger picture. Orks couldn't plan if it was the only way they reproduced, for the most part, and the SD forces are as ignorant as the Guard. This is one spot where I'd love to see some Eldar be the opponent, rather than just a piece of the scenery, because they would cover their lower numbers with awesome strategy, and better toys. Preferably CW, over DE, since the DE are often just about kidnapping, murder, and escape, without really committing to anything. Imagine if the Guard forces actually found a standing body of Aspect Warriors and Guardians. Even if they were just buying time to withdraw, which is likely the way Eldar are often portrayed, it could get vicious.

I can see being irritated by the ignorance of everyone in 40k, and the efforts to maintain that ignorance, on the part of the Imperium, but yeah, at least the enemy is often as ignorant. And it does fit in with their fluff, where once half of everyone turned traitor, and knew everything the first side did. Horus got Army vessels/troops to side with him, Mechanicus forces, and more, getting Titans, Knights, Space Marines, and more, and covering the few blind spots (Priests, etc.) with Chaos's own variants. This made his war easier, since he had been told everything, and was the Warmaster. The Imperium has since hamstrung itself in numerous ways, just to make sure the next rogue leader, and there will be one, because Chaos is corruptive that way, can't take any more than necessary. AdMech horde secrets, even from each other, the Army got split into the Guard and the Navy, so you don't as easily get a ship AND an invasion force, th Ecclesiarchy lost their military, and only keep thee Sisters on a technicality supported by the Inquisition, etc. While I'm not saying anything you don't know, it fits. The Imperium knows that, deep down, Humans are weak and pathetic, and can be easily tainted by evil, so they keep as little power in any one person's hands as possible, and watch those with the most power much more carefully.

As for spies and getting info out, it depends on who the enemy is. Chaos has psykers and sorcery, which the Imperium has trouble fighting. Eldar have the Webway, Tau have vox-like systems with different frequencies, Orks don't care, Nids and Crons are connected via senses, at least with some writers.

Actually, the Imperium could drop a specially trained Astropath onto a planet's surface - one filled with cybernetics that will immolate him or her if they are ever captured.

And there ARE assassin cults based around information gathering. It's just that information will be filtered through dozens of layers operational division. So, the Vanus Temple assassins learn about the planet, then send it telepathically to the Inquisitor who called them in, who deciphers it with their Adeptus Astra Telepathica contacts, who send it on to be looked over by the Magos of the Tech-Priests, the Navy Admiralty, the Imperial Guard Generalship, the Ministorium Reps (mostly Ecclesiarchs and high ranked Sisters of Battle) AND the local Space Marines who are involved. All of them dicker and bicker and argue over who gets to do what where for what reasons.

Yes, mysticism and religion do play a part here - they read the Emperor's Tarot, and they divine and auger and kill goats and splatter their entrails...but remember, this is a universe where divination WORKS (kinda). Where God is literally real, and can guide his chosen through the Tarot - the actual cards are psychoactive. Where you can have a psyker peer into a scrying pool and state prophecies that foretell where orbital defense placements are, and where naval concentrations are.

Then, once the plan is decided, the information is again filtered, again split up.

And...again, this makes sense. You're fighting enemies with psykers, or better ops planning, or some other eerie ability that can see through your plans. So, you at least try and chop up the information so that a lucky mind reading or a single turncoat doesn't doom a million million men.

Remember: The Imperium doesn't hate knowledge.

It fears knowledge because of what it has done in the past.

As the old saying goes: Knowledge is power. Hide it well.

So having a high command which is both logical and efficient is rather implausible, as are temples or ordos focused on intelligence gathering. The Imperium is too focused on burning books to value intelligence and knowledge. Appreciating local intelligence just doesn’t fit the theme of medieval space opera with a paranoid, ignorant society consistently blundering into situations any sane 5 year old could have either foreseen or prevented.

May I point you towards the Logis Strategos and the Officio Sabatorum?

So having a high command which is both logical and efficient is rather implausible, as are temples or ordos focused on intelligence gathering. ....

May I point you towards the Logis Strategos and the Officio Sabatorum ?

I like it. Linked them to a wiki, hope you don't mind.

So having a high command which is both logical and efficient is rather implausible, as are temples or ordos focused on intelligence gathering. The Imperium is too focused on burning books to value intelligence and knowledge. Appreciating local intelligence just doesn’t fit the theme of medieval space opera with a paranoid, ignorant society consistently blundering into situations any sane 5 year old could have either foreseen or prevented.

May I point you towards the Logis Strategos and the Officio Sabatorum?

Sorry, but I am not buying it. Not as an intelligence agency providing operational intelligence for a planetary conquest.

Intelligence as in "what kind of threat are we facing and what is needed to oppose it?" is likely. That is what the segmentum commanders and the high lords do. And they obviously need an organisation to provide them with this strategic information.

But actual, useful (tactical/operational) knowledge? Nope.

This is an imperium which has independent and only marginally sane merchant-princes scout beyond its borders. Not its own navy........An imperium which provides stupid information to its own soldiers. Info which gets them killed (Uplifting primer). An imperium which kills its own soldiers and citizens for being exposed to chaos. Not tainted, just exposed.....It just doesn't fit IMO.

The forge world Imperial armour books cover some planetary invasions. Actual intelligence is not a very important aspect apparently. Warpy predictions and numerical calculations based on available data (usually outdated) are used instead.

IA books may or may not be canon but they do provide examples of how GW sees planetary assaults.

YMMV.

But actual, useful (tactical/operational) knowledge? Nope.

This is an imperium which has independent and only marginally sane merchant-princes scout beyond its borders. Not its own navy........An imperium which provides stupid information to its own soldiers. Info which gets them killed (Uplifting primer). An imperium which kills its own soldiers and citizens for being exposed to chaos. Not tainted, just exposed.....It just doesn't fit IMO.

The Imperium, taken as a whole, does do those things. The Uplifting Primer is one of a few mass-produced, interstellar-ly available materials to be officially sanctioned for mass distribution. Planetary and Sector level command and governments are, in direct contrast, fairly competent and well-organized. Once in theater, the mess of bureaucracy comes from coordinating levied troops from various different worlds, all of which speak different variants of languages (of the low gothic or lesser families). Multiple organizations in theater often find themselves in similar situations where mis-communication leads to errors and occasional disorder in the real world.

While the Logis Strategos might exist purely as a Segmentum level entity, the Officio Sabatorum takes active role in conflicts. The were, as mentioned, part of the organized taskforce assigned to combat Abbaddon's Thirteenth Black Crusade.

As a tid-bit: The Imperium is completely justified in executing their forces that have been exposed to the ruinous powers. Just one man corrupted can unleash horrible things upon unsuspecting worlds. The Kronus campaign (Dawn of War), showed how one guardsman lead to so much disaster.

The Kronus campaign (Dawn of War), showed how one guardsman lead to so much disaster.

I don't remember anything about this. In any case if mere exposure to Chaos was actually that dangerous, Chaos would be completely impossible to fight. Cadia would've fallen ages ago.

While the Imperium is more than a bit nepotic, and generals do tend to come from the same families over and over, the cream is still going to rise to the top in a galaxy of Only War, if rather inefficiently. When the bad generals die, and they do die, only the best, or at the most experienced remain. That's just survival of the fittest and "I'm not buying it" isn't a defense against it.

The Imperium has plenty of intel-gathering equipment: motion sensors, ground vibrations sensors, all sorts of sensors. Regiments are recruiting tools. Recruited units are no doubt brigaded together, but they have recon units, attached or organic, as evidenced by the plethora of light recon vehicles available to any IG player. There is aerial recon; there is orbital recon. There is recon.

So, Imperial Guard commanders have plenty of intel-gathering ability at every level, tactical, operational, or strategic. It's simply of matter of who is currently in charge. Are they good or bad at their job? The Guard has many of the latter and not so many of the former. But to stereotype a force that numbers in the trillions is a bit simplistic. When dealing with that kind of scale you can have literally anything and everything. Of course, basing opinions on written books will tend to bring out only those situations that make for good story-telling, and if it's a book about space marines, then incompetent IG generals are going to make for a better story, as is a story about, say, a commissar. If someone writes a book about an Imperial Guard general, then you're going to see some brilliant decisions during that person's rise to power.

Well, whether how effective these organizations are is a question on the reader / players perception of the setting. Obviously they are out there, but since this is a sci-fi game, and we can't base what we 'know' as true to the setting in question, as every 40k book / game / novel / movie is different. As for the whole Chaos corrupts thing, the Imperium is scared of it, and for good reason. Basing it off of one incident does not do it justice, when attempting to show an accurate representation of it. Now as to how it actually really works..... *shrugs*, sci-fi game. No need for us to debate about it, as we will literally be going in circles on the issue, based, once again, on ones perception and interpretation of the setting in question.

Besides, I don't think Cogniczar 's intent was to classify the corrupting power of Chaos, and was simply providing an example of what "can" happen. However, once again, it pertains to once perception and interpretation on the setting on how it truly corrupts. Kinda like how they ret-conned Chaos Khorne Stormboyz from 2nd Edition [REDACTED BY THE HOLY INQUISITION] ... Who I thought were [FILE PURGED AND HERETIC PUNISHED FOR HIS SINS. MAY THE EMPEROR FOREVER WATCH OVER US]

While you can have different interpretations of the setting, those interpretations of the setting need to be internally consistent if you're going to play a game. The question of "how do you get corrupted by Chaos" needs to have a real answer for the purposes of any given game, otherwise the player characters might end up getting corrupted by Chaos no matter what they do, and while that's fine for single-author fiction, for a game to function as a game and not as a novel in disguise player decisions need to matter. Even if the players don't know in advance what could cause them or others to be corrupted by Chaos, the GM needs to. Whatever that answer is, it should be consistent with the interpretation of the setting unique to that game, which means that if you are going with an interpretation in which Cadia didn't fall to Chaos within a century of the traitor legions' retreat to the Eye of Terror then your explanation for Chaos corruption must include a reason why Cadia held against Chaos for so many millenia despite regular exposure.

One of 40k's biggest consistency problems is the way that Chaos is assigned so many superpowers that there's no way the Imperium (or anyone else who isn't arbitrarily resistant or immune) could possibly have survived. To have a coherent game world, that contradiction needs to be resolved one way or another. It doesn't particularly matter how you resolve the contradiction, but you do need to resolve it.

....... It doesn't particularly matter how you resolve the contradiction, but you do need to resolve it.

I have no idea where you were going with this statement. Have you told GW your feelings on this issue?

I think it was on 4Chan of all places, but there is this nifty little blurp where an NCO/Officer is rousing his new forces before going into battle, and he takes the time to basically tell them that the "nice little primer" they read is crap, and that if they want to live, they'd best listen to him. He then goes on to amaze them with Creed's greatness, so I kept reading (only in dialogue is Creed still relevant ) I imagine this being a thing in many Guard units, where the first few fights go pear-shaped, and then the survivors inform the next line what's really what, and they comeback.

From the Imperium's perspective, the average Human is a weak, cowardly soul, and easily corrupted by greed, power, or what have you. If you were a soldier in the IG, and I told you that your job today was to go up against the Tau force over the hill, and THEN I told you how awesome their gear is, and well-trained their line-infantry are, you might look at the cardboard cutout of armor we gave you, and the laser pointer you are holding, and wonder why I think you have any chance. Commissars only have so many bullets, and even shooting a few soldiers won't stop a whole division from turning and running, and I DO need men to engage the enemy, so maybe I'll try to convince you that the Tau suck, and hope that, by the time you figure out they are better than expected, you'll already be in it, and unable to turn tail, or on their gun line, where their poor assault tactics might give you an edge via numbers. If you DO live, you'll know that the Tau CAN be beaten, and your experience against them will make those who fill in the gaps in your force all the more capable of doing it again, hopefully more smoothly. Also, I, the Imperium, am not "the good guy', I'll prosecute my wars by any and all means necessary.

As for "the tainting touch of Chaos", if Daemons didn't appear, I think you'll be fine, and Priests will go through the ranks, post-battle, and poke for Corruption (an incognito Inquisitor might, too, as you never know where they'll show up). If they do have to liquidate a whole division, then it's inconvenient, but they always have more, or at least that's how GW has written Guard all this time.

As was said above, I think many assets will be turned to intel-gathering, once stuff is going down, and Astropaths will tell Commanders what he ships saw, who'll vox it to the necessary commanders, and on down. Anyone whose been in the military (not me) knows full well that soldiers talk (scuttlebutt?), and so no matter how indoctrinated with wrong info the Guard might seem to be, once things are happening, "accurate" assessments of things will start to leak through, and they'll act accordingly. The Guard CAN be a much more adaptive, evolutionary force than it is often pictured as, and keeping them "looking dumb, and under-equipped" is as much just a writing tool to maintain the grimdark atmosphere, as anything else.

Also, Scotland who? Yeah, when you can only make someone so cool, without actually making them impossible, even when Space Marines, sometimes you just need to make the supporting cast less capable than they actually are. If I could ONLY base my opinion of Scotland Yard on Sherlock Holmes works, then they are laughable, bungling idiots, who couldn't tell their arse from a hole in the ground, if Holmes didn't remind them which one they just shat themselves with. Are the Guard bad? No, but to make the Astartes look even better, they'll be shown as such, when THEY aren't the stars, so that the Space Marines can shine all the brighter, but without TOTALLY throwing a rules set out the window to do so. How many Astartes are there? How do they majoritively fight? Would these forces be capable of fighting protracted wars? No. They DO die, and they CAN'T absorb losses for crap. They are GREAT for individual assaults, targeted raids, or whatnot, and can hold an area well IF WELL SUPPORTED, probably by Guard, but it's the limitless meatshields of the IG that do what the Imperium specializes in; WAR!!!

All right, I think I'm done uselessly prattling.

Also remember, the 'meat shields' of IG infantry are not their primary offensive force. That would be their armor! IG armor is as formidable as any of the other factions and more so than many! When the guard is properly coordinated, they will come in an iron fist of armor supported by artillery and yes, infantry. On most battlefields, this is much harder to beat than some of you seem to think!

I have no idea where you were going with this statement. Have you told GW your feelings on this issue?

Even if the players don't know in advance what could cause them or others to be corrupted by Chaos, the GM needs to.

Please read my posts before responding to them.