The amount of food needed to grow a human is unsurprisingly far larger than the amount of food that human can provide when consumed at any stage of life. Cannibalism can only delay the inevitable. According to XKCD What If? a single human body can sustain a single human cannibal for about a month, so if you sacrifice fully half of your population (likely shooting to Hell your ability to maintain vital war industries and defenses in the process, maximum military mobilization of a population in times of absolute desperation caps out at around ten percent because if you lose more than that your economy collapses completely and takes the logistics train supplying your army with it) you buy exactly one month of time. Unless you have reinforcements on the way, one month isn't worth much. People resorting to cannibalism in order to drag a siege out one month longer out of nothing else but spite for the enemy is 40k as Hell, but it certainly isn't harming the viability of naval blockades as a tactic.

Then there are insane worlds like Grace where it somehow still manages to work, but then they're all mutants now, so who knows?

Ok, so I have been a follower of 40k for decades. There is one topic that is somewhat glossed over and that's how large scale wars even occur for any protracted length. I'm trying to wrap my head around and come up with fluff reasons why this would happen for my Rogue Trader game.

The essential question is this: Why doesn't one side eventually gain space superiority and just bombard the living crap out of the enemy ground force, effectively ending the war?

Consider this scenario.

You have an Imperial world that turns traitor for whatever reason. This world has a very large and powerful PDF with fortresses, etc. They also have a large and powerful orbital defenses.

Imperial fleet arrives and destroys or occupies orbital defenses and simultaneously lands forces for a beachhead. Eventually the Imperial fleet would gain space superiority. Why then would they not just bombard the PDF forces into submission?

Let's say that a large chaos fleet arrives and drives off or destroys the Imperial fleet. Why then wouldn't the Chaos fleet bombard the Imperials on the ground into dust?

We know that such things as planetary defense lasers exist but from the fluff they appear to be very large, very static and very power hungry things. I would assume they would only protect fixed bastions and even then, there would not be lots of them. So even then, at best the enemy could only hole up in very limited defenses with really no hope of extrication.

My problem is that I can't seem to conceive of very many scenarios that would allow for protracted land campaigns as we see in 40k fluff all the time. It seems like someone will eventually achieve space superiority by destroying or driving off one side or the other.

Ideas?

In the scenario you paint, the proper approach would go something like this:

1. Orbital bombardment of rebel strongholds - i.e. the fortress that you mentioned. Any area where the enemy is entrenched would be bombarded. In the event that strongholds are near areas of strategic importance, bombing runs from fighters/gunships would be the order of the day.

2. Mass landing in safe LZs for line infantry/armour forces. LZs should be on high ground or distant enough from any known concentrations of enemy forces to avoid compromising LZs.

3. Drop Troops or more elite infantry forces would simultaneously attack key strategic assets - i.e. manufactora - in order to prevent them from being destroyed and to divert enemy attention from the advancing bodies comprising the main force.

4. Main force advances. The approach on a planetary scale would be divide and conquer. Maintain air superiority to combard rather than charge defensive positions. Slow and steady approach is best here.

This presumes the world in question is one with large expanses of unimproved land - i.e. Frontier, Agri-World. If it's a Hive or Mining world, the approach would change.

Indeed but as Lupa points out cannibalism only delays the inevitable. If (as many Hive/Forge worlds are said to be) a world is dependent on external supplies then cutting off those supplies will result in it needing to eventually surrender in order to re-instate those supplies. Well that or do without until everyone is dead which is a perfectly acceptable option in 40k.

Now if the world in question isn't dependent on external supplies, has a means of getting the supplies past your blockade (say the webway or some chaos ritual) or has significant reinforcements coming then a blockade is not going to work but there will be plenty of times when it will be a viable option.

So, I'm a big fan of Attack Craft, and the Carrier-build ships some folks have demonstrated. Do the books cover using them for surface runs? I'm still going to sit here, and imagine that your "typical" Imperial voidship can't just sit up there, firing down on a Strongpoint, without getting fired on, in turn, and my mountain within a mountain under void shields should still do better than their vessel will, but I can totally see sending down a squadron of bombers, maybe with interceptors, but only maybe, and have them target any land-based lance batteries, torpedo silos, and/or exposed void shield generators, in preparation for their capital ship taking a position to then blast the stronghold into dust. Not sure if atmo, fuel, or what all gets involved, in the way the book describes things. Would the Dictator, as an example, be able to launch them from a ways off, let them do their bit, and then assume orbit, receiving them back, and beginning bombardment, or would they already have to be in the cross hairs of the land-defenses? How much time would the bombers need, compared to how much they get, before fuel is spent? I know that the Ground Combat rules are a bit unloved, but I don't know if they addressed using Attack Craft for much more than using Bombers to hurt ships, and Fighters to simply keep the Bombers from getting shot down. I'm rather a fan of the Flight Marshall, but a firm believer that the bulk of how Attack Craft are operated, especially when the big ships are so much bigger, that the Alt Career is rather unnecessary, but if they would lead a planet-side sortie, dodging AA guns, while sizing up key targets, that, I think, could be cool.

I see planetary invasions a bit differently. The first wave lands well before the Imperial Navy or Guard even get to the system. Maybe they are agents of the Vanus Temple, or something equally as esoteric. Let's just call them spies. They sure are hard to catch when ranging around on a planetary scale, and they are just getting the logistics and infrastructure of the of the system down. It's hard to regulate everyone on a planet that's just walking around looking at railroad tracks or their hi-tech equivalent.

When the Navy shows up, they are going to blow away the system and orbital defenses. In the instance of heavy resistance there will be losses, but barring a successful ruse the end result is a foregone conclusion. Big ships can begin a planetary bombardement, but their targets are going to be the grid. Silos can be hard to locate, hardened, and void shielded. Massed fire can still bring them down, but torpedo silos are going to run out of ammo shortly (100m missiles being hard to store in large numbers), and lance silos need tremendous supplies of energy. Now those energy generators can be equally buried, hardened, and shielded, so it's more efficient to go for the transmission systems. That's where those spies might come in handy, because the Imperium has another Temple that specializes in sabotage. Might as well poison the water supplies, too, just because that will sow distrust, cause panic, and create chaos that governments don't really like in times of invasion.

There might be some isolated military missions occuring at this time. A SM Strike Cruiser might drop pod some elite troops to sabotage a silo, neutralize an air base, or blow up a power station, but SMs aren't always available.

Troops of the main body aren't going to land while there are active air defenses. Why should they? That's an unnecessary risk. You can't name a single amphibious assault that went in without air superiority. It isn't done. So once the skies are relatively safe you find a nice isolated valley in position to strike out at populated areas, seats of government, and war industry, something like the California Valley. You have mountains shielding you on two sides, desert on a third side, lots of good natural defenses, plenty of space to land and establish a beachhead, and in a position to make many threats on coastal concentrations of population.

You sit there building up an unbeatable force, daring the defenders to come attack you, because every day they don't you get stronger while they get weaker. If they attack you, so much the better, as they are doing your job for you.

This approach is going to work in almost any terrain. Frontier worlds shouldn't take a large build-up to gain superiority before making a move, and they have limited infrastructure. It shouldn't be hard to isolate something they require for sustenance. The same goes with an agri-world. In fact, taking control of the admin centers should do the trick as population is sparse. Mining and industrial worlds need immense amounts of energy. Take those centers. Hives need vast amounts of food and water. Interdict either and they fall.

Interdict defender movement from the air, either with air forces or orbital bombardment. Keep them pinned down. Destroy their necessary infrastructure with rapid strike forces. You have freedom of movement. They do not. Force their surrender. Of course, this is assuming your opponent might surrender.

Differing defenders might require additional measures. An Ork infestation in going to require some cleanse and purify forces to rid the world of spores. A Chaos cult might require extermination, obviating attacks on infrastructure and necessitating a genocidal advance. If this is more than a local occurance, though, exterminatus becomes a viable alternative.

Of course, there might be guerilla resistance for generations to come, but once the centers of government, agriculture, and industry are taken, the defenders won't be able to fuel a war machine. It's time to pick up the mass of your army and move to the next trouble spot.

Actually they totally will land if there's active air defenses and they're too entrenched. Look at the Space Marine game.

Remember, the Imperial Guard's philosophy is 'throw more people at it'. Including expendable vehicles like dropships and such.

And what you're forgetting is that even the LARGEST ships have limited amounts of space to generate power on. Their have limited void shields. A forge world? It's largest defenses are likely to have constantly powered void shields and FAR more of them than say, anything short of a battleship. Concentrated fire is going to be wasteful, maybe even counter productive if **** explodes OFF a voidshield and shrapnel rains down on the parts of said forge world you want to keep functioning.

Also remember, while the Imperium might be vast and huge, it can't really afford to let even ONE planet leave the flock for longer than a few months or years. A planet, even something like a forgeworld, probably has built up stockpiles and nutrient vats to keep itself from complete starvation for decades if necessary.

The imperium owns a million worlds, but it is fighting on at least triple that. The imperium can't afford to let worlds simmer and be besieged and WAIT on them. A planet has significant resources built up on it. Any planet can, potentially, be made self sufficient with enough effort. They can't risk it. So the Imperium MUST end rebellions asap.

Also remember, while the Imperium might be vast and huge, it can't really afford to let even ONE planet leave the flock for longer than a few months or years.

Many of the Sabbat Worlds have been held by Chaos for decades, worlds like Tyran, lost centuries ago in the first Tyrannic War, are never coming back, and many worlds captured by Orks or Necrons have been lost for centuries or, in the former case, even millenia. Whether or not the Imperium can afford it, they do lose planets for much longer than a few years, and they lose them on a regular basis.

Yeah, with a lack of concrete leadership (there are people who the only thing they know about their master-superior is the title said office allegedly has), shaky communication, and delays in it, and warp travel, and just the sheer size of everything, the Imperium is the only one not laughing at the idea that they can hold everything. Rome, and numerous other nations, both real and fictional, have all learned that there is a finite quantity of empire that the sitting leadership can afford, administer, and support; eventually, your edges fray, the threads begin to unravel, and you run out of resources, before you realize you've actually been dead, or living on borrowed time, and you didn't even know it, and a group of "savage primitives" sacks your capitol, because your troops were fat, complacent, or just unprepared, and all of those only had to field a span of Earth, minus a few fictional empires. Throw in vast gulfs of nothing, distances that even beggar light speed, weapons that can end worlds, enemy forces each in the millions, and all of the other crap that makes 40k so fun and grimdark, and it's more than a miracle that the Imperium has stood for this long, especially, in my eyes, at least, when surrounded by so many enemies that don't frequently also seem to fight each other.

Hell, they walked away from Jericho, and that seems so close to the Ultramarines' space as to make me think that they could've done something sooner than thousands of years later. Finding a warp gate that goes from Koronus to Jericho is nice, and helps deplete resources that could be used to stabilize that space against the enemies of Mankind (blam, strike that, BLASPHEMY!!!), but it doesn't seem, to my uneducated eyes on a map, that getting there from McCragge is so hard a trip, especially when capable pilots can navigate warp storms like the Maw, so they can elsewhere, too, or whatever makes traditional excursion into the Jericho Reach so tough. They'll do it, though, so all's well.

Can't agree Shadowclasper. As already pointed out, planets and systems fall out of the Imperium for decades, even centuries at a time. Tithes get entered in the wrong column and 50 years later that planet is called rebellious.

I also can't agree with the idea of huge inventories of foodstuffs, even nutrient vats. Now, I'm not talking about forge worlds, since those are rare. But, hive worlds are far more common and represent the Imperium's major investments, and a goodly portion of their industry as well, and since most of them have populations in excess of 100 billion (I've read numbers as high as 300 billion and I'm not an avid BL reader), this just doesn't seem feasible.

We've had discussions about the "million worlds" theory. I'm in the "million stellar systems" camp. And, I can't see the Imperium fighting in 3 million...also not feasible. We recently had a discussion about the Imperial Navy and it was put forth, and generally agreed upon (though I didn't agree) that the Imperium probably has about as many capital ships as it has "worlds."

I think you overstated one of the problems. I don't think a battleship has anywhere near the power generation of an Imperial world, let alone a hive world or forge world. And, I didn't suggest attacking the power generators. I explicitly said that was a bad idea...attack the transmission system instead, the grid.

Finally, and most importantly to me, I'm not buying that the Imperial Guard follows a "throw more people at it" approach. Do they win by attrition? I'll agree to that, but not so much as to agree that they are wasteful of lives. That doesn't make sense to me on multiple levels. It's easier and more efficient to transport survivors of one battle to the next battle than it is to go back for more. Veterans are simply more valuable than recent conscripts. And, while the bureaucracy of the Imperium is such that officer families are entrenched, the cream of those entrenched still rises to the top...in most cases...the exceptions being notable and worthy of a novel or two...or two million.

So it boils down to what you consider active air defense. My own narrow view envisions opposing aircraft, not AAA defenses. Those you might have to fly through, though they become primary targets. But landing craft flying through fighters is a big no-no in 2015 and I'm not going to buy that people in the year 41K are somehow more stupid that those today...no more than I'd buy that the people of 300 BC are more stupid than the people of 2015. People are people, and their physiology, at least as written in both fluff and actual history, doesn't seem to change much.

Now as far as entrenchment is concerned, I didn't address that directly, at least not the entrenchment of the defenders. I suggested a scenario where they leave their entrenchments, as entrenchments have no strategic value of their own but what they defend. If you can make a threat, you can entice defenders out of their entrenchments, at which point they have no value at all.

I think you got it right the first time Errant! Spies (Probably cells from one of the Inquisition ordos rather than Assassinorium temples) will Identify key strategic assets. Then the main forces will move in system.

I've always seen attacks on major systems as akin to peeling an onion. Assuming the Enemy has their own fleet available, Naval engagements will begin as early as the outer reaches of the system. Once you get closer to the world, System defense boats and High orbit satellites will seek to deter your advance or at force you to suffer some additional attrition.

Once your fleet has secured orbit attacks on the world may begin in earnest. Naval bombardment will target whatever assets are deemed to be targetable with a reasonable chance of success based on the specific world. Additionally, Such Bombardments will have the secondary goal of weakening the defensive forces directly.

Elite Commando units (Astartes, and or Stormtroopers) will seize/destroy critical locations while Shock troops, (More Astartes, Battle Sisters and Grenadiers) will seek to open up landing Zones and seize certain strategic objectives. Air defenses would include both Aeronautica and AA weapons and these will be opposed by Imperial Aeronautica and Ground attack aircraft in turn.

Once the Main force has landed, (by whatever means!) they will spread out and start taking key objectives. If more force is still needed, and the General has good connections, The Adeptus Mechanicus may be convinced to deploy A Titan legion and/or Ordinatus. At this point the world has become a true meat grinder and the war could drag on for some time. At some point the attacking forces will have taken enough strategic points of value on the world that it will surrender or, in reverse the attacking force may be forced to withdraw.

All this assumes that the Imperial forces are well coordinated which is hardly a certainty!

Also remember, while the Imperium might be vast and huge, it can't really afford to let even ONE planet leave the flock for longer than a few months or years.

Many of the Sabbat Worlds have been held by Chaos for decades, worlds like Tyran, lost centuries ago in the first Tyrannic War, are never coming back, and many worlds captured by Orks or Necrons have been lost for centuries or, in the former case, even millenia. Whether or not the Imperium can afford it, they do lose planets for much longer than a few years, and they lose them on a regular basis.

The Imperium is also DIEING remember. It's being constantly pushed back and eaten away.

Sun Tzu told his employers that an expenditure of 10% of the military budget should be spent on gathering information and making sure that your opponents can't do the same (i.e. spies and saboteurs). Now I'm not suggesting that the Imperium does that, but consider the implications.

Sun Tzu told his employers that an expenditure of 10% of the military budget should be spent on gathering information and making sure that your opponents can't do the same (i.e. spies and saboteurs). Now I'm not suggesting that the Imperium does that, but consider the implications.

So now you have some idea of the (staggering) budget for the inquisition!

Oh heck, I figured they were skimming 10% off the top.

Also remember, while the Imperium might be vast and huge, it can't really afford to let even ONE planet leave the flock for longer than a few months or years.

Many of the Sabbat Worlds have been held by Chaos for decades, worlds like Tyran, lost centuries ago in the first Tyrannic War, are never coming back, and many worlds captured by Orks or Necrons have been lost for centuries or, in the former case, even millenia. Whether or not the Imperium can afford it, they do lose planets for much longer than a few years, and they lose them on a regular basis.

The Imperium is also DIEING remember. It's being constantly pushed back and eaten away.

If the loss of one planet for even a few years is something the Imperium cannot afford, they aren't dying. They're dead. Not doomed , but already dead and gone, no Imperium left at all. And have been for centuries. Like, the Sabbat Worlds heresy would've been the killing blow before the Crusades even got started, and the First Tyrannic War, and the Badab War, and any of a hundred Ork wars, and etc. etc. Clearly the Imperium can afford to lose worlds because they do so all the time and have not yet ceased to exist. Losing a single world doesn't pose an immediate existential threat to the Imperium. Losing a thousand worlds doesn't pose an immediate existential threat to the Imperium (here I refer you to the Gothic War). And since there's no immediate existential threat posed by fighting a long, conservative war rather than a quick and reckless one, the Imperium is better served with the former. Their dwindling resources mean they have more incentive to be clever with what they've got left, not less.

If the loss of one planet for even a few years is something the Imperium cannot afford, they aren't dying. They're dead. Not doomed , but already dead and gone, no Imperium left at all. And have been for centuries. Like, the Sabbat Worlds heresy would've been the killing blow before the Crusades even got started, and the First Tyrannic War, and the Badab War, and any of a hundred Ork wars, and etc. etc. Clearly the Imperium can afford to lose worlds because they do so all the time and have not yet ceased to exist. Losing a single world doesn't pose an immediate existential threat to the Imperium. Losing a thousand worlds doesn't pose an immediate existential threat to the Imperium (here I refer you to the Gothic War). And since there's no immediate existential threat posed by fighting a long, conservative war rather than a quick and reckless one, the Imperium is better served with the former. Their dwindling resources mean they have more incentive to be clever with what they've got left, not less.

Well...they did lose Cadia, that's a pretty important planet, the lose off which is a pretty massive blow....

They haven't officially lost it yet, the timeline is frozen at that point because GW wrote themselves into a box with that one.

Also remember, while the Imperium might be vast and huge, it can't really afford to let even ONE planet leave the flock for longer than a few months or years.

Many of the Sabbat Worlds have been held by Chaos for decades, worlds like Tyran, lost centuries ago in the first Tyrannic War, are never coming back, and many worlds captured by Orks or Necrons have been lost for centuries or, in the former case, even millenia. Whether or not the Imperium can afford it, they do lose planets for much longer than a few years, and they lose them on a regular basis.

The Imperium is also DIEING remember. It's being constantly pushed back and eaten away.

If the loss of one planet for even a few years is something the Imperium cannot afford, they aren't dying. They're dead. Not doomed , but already dead and gone, no Imperium left at all. And have been for centuries. Like, the Sabbat Worlds heresy would've been the killing blow before the Crusades even got started, and the First Tyrannic War, and the Badab War, and any of a hundred Ork wars, and etc. etc. Clearly the Imperium can afford to lose worlds because they do so all the time and have not yet ceased to exist. Losing a single world doesn't pose an immediate existential threat to the Imperium. Losing a thousand worlds doesn't pose an immediate existential threat to the Imperium (here I refer you to the Gothic War). And since there's no immediate existential threat posed by fighting a long, conservative war rather than a quick and reckless one, the Imperium is better served with the former. Their dwindling resources mean they have more incentive to be clever with what they've got left, not less.

Isn't that, sortof, you know, what's being implied by everything in the setting? That's why it's so grim dark? That the Imperium is ****** because it's pressed on every single side and so many of it's most important worlds and lynch-pin systems are combated so heavily that the entire deal is starting to fall apart?

They haven't officially lost it yet, the timeline is frozen at that point because GW wrote themselves into a box with that one.

Partially. I thought the whole situation there was the result of the World compaign that took place a few years ago. They crafted the lore around those results.

They haven't officially lost it yet, the timeline is frozen at that point because GW wrote themselves into a box with that one.

Partially. I thought the whole situation there was the result of the World compaign that took place a few years ago. They crafted the lore around those results.

Yeah they did, but they still wrote themselves into a box. The imperium is basically doomed because a near instantaneous warp gate from Cadia to Terra is there. They can't advance the plot, because the only sensible way for the plot to end at this point is "Chaos overwhelms Terra. Everyone dies."

Also it's unclear because they also retconned out Eldrad dieing.

Yeah they did, but they still wrote themselves into a box. The imperium is basically doomed because a near instantaneous warp gate from Cadia to Terra is there. They can't advance the plot, because the only sensible way for the plot to end at this point is "Chaos overwhelms Terra. Everyone dies."

Also it's unclear because they also retconned out Eldrad dieing.

I would like to seem them do another campaign and let the results speak for themselves. I liked the idea that they gave the actual gameplay the ability to determine the story, having actual battles be fought that would be talked about (to an extent) in later books. Probably not the best idea if you want to ensure your story continues, but still a neat idea.

Yeah they did, but they still wrote themselves into a box. The imperium is basically doomed because a near instantaneous warp gate from Cadia to Terra is there. They can't advance the plot, because the only sensible way for the plot to end at this point is "Chaos overwhelms Terra. Everyone dies."

Also it's unclear because they also retconned out Eldrad dieing.

I would like to seem them do another campaign and let the results speak for themselves. I liked the idea that they gave the actual gameplay the ability to determine the story, having actual battles be fought that would be talked about (to an extent) in later books. Probably not the best idea if you want to ensure your story continues, but still a neat idea.

Problem is the system they used was completely flawed and easy as hell to abuse. Look at the Medusa V campaign. You can't tell me that the day after the Tau players organize a massive cool event that gets into the official lore (The Hammer falling), the next week, suddenly, ALL of the imperial factions are suddenly beating up on Tau... like they all suddenly found Tau players to collectively beat the snot out of.

THe premise is neat, the method of execution was flawed in the extreme.

Also, In the 'Official' campaign as I understand it. Abaddon was bogged down on the ground on Cadia while The Imperial Navy maintained local space superiority (The IN won it's campaign in BFG.). This left GW in a 'Nowhere to go' position and they have done nothing to advance the story (Except axe the entire BFG line! )

Also, In the 'Official' campaign as I understand it. Abaddon was bogged down on the ground on Cadia while The Imperial Navy maintained local space superiority (The IN won it's campaign in BFG.). This left GW in a 'Nowhere to go' position and they have done nothing to advance the story (Except axe the entire BFG line! )

Yes. They were stalemated. The imperium controlled the air, chaos controlled the ground...........and they've been standing like that ever since. Those arms and legs must be getting tired after all these years, just holding like that.

Have they, or do you think, they will retconn this out?

What about the whole thing with the Golden Throne being irrepairable? That also seems like a corner they can't get out of without some sort of drastic editing or story advancement.

The Golden Throne as irreparable is the easy part. It slowly breaks down over the next few decades/centuries/millenia. The game won't last that long.

I've been wondering if the creators (if they still have control, I don't know) are simply retiring and looking for a way out without giving up their baby, and want to do like another game company did and just destroy their creation in a giant apocalypse. I mean, how long will Warhammer go on? Will it outlive its creators? Who would inherit the rights? Do they want to administer a genre estate?

I wouldn't mind a reset scenario where humanity is broken into a bunch of little empires. Of course, that means they'd have to tone down some of the uber-badness of the Imperium's many enemies, and a general apocalypse might do that very well indeed.