It must be a thing for all of us to have WAYYYY too many ints. Its always the ints. Masses and masses of ints as if we were gonna ambush at the 2nd death star.

Is there a name for this affliction?

You see, I'm all about the ints, 'bout the ints, no tantive...

Dear interwebs,

I can confidently say that if your soontir is getting 1 shot at all its pretty much your own fault. Rolling 3-4-5 blanks with the Fel should not result in an instant death. Soontir usually gets pinged to death. Autothrusters helps with/stops the pinging. That is all.

You know, reading this thread REALLY makes me want to pre empt the inevitable and just start up a "Let's fix the falcon" thread now...it is an "iconic" ship you know!!

I always see you hang around bickering whenever people start improvement, complaint, or... well... genuine whine threads. So why do you never share your incredible wisdom with us sometimes at least, and tell us how you would improve the game? Are you just an imp player envious of turrets, are you completely satisfied of the game as it is, are you fearful of new stuff or do you just have entirely different ideas that you don't want to share?

So you are calling me out for not wanting to let people whine and complain away with no resistance? You are calling me out for telling people why their bad suggestions are bad suggestions?

Whiners bug me...so do amatuer game designers with little to no practical experience or training who are so concerned with making their favorite ships better they ignore balance or fair points costing or how their "improvements" will affect other ships (and this isnt calling out anyone in particular...I have gotten into this with a few people.) Why are you calling me out for raising issues on many a "genuine whine thread?" I have seen a great many improvement ideas...most of which, unsurprisingly, are pretty bad or only half thought out and never really improved upon. We arent game designers here...as much as some people here like to think they are. The smugness I sense when something comes out close to something they may have suggested bugs me. Those things bother me...and I dont have to sit back and keep my mouth shut so I dont. I am sorry you my dissenting voice irritates you so (and if it doesn't well the fact you called me out in this instance makes me think otherwise)...perhaps you could add me to your ignore list?

I never claimed to have incredible wisdom (outside of the supply threads in which I dont claim wisdom...just real world expertise and an intimate knowledge of the very issues being discussed...) and I have straight up admitted before that I am no game designer. I have no interest in making new rules as it isnt something I feel I am capable of...I would put out a great many bad ideas if I sat down and started suggesting things...but I can spot bad ideas when I see them. And I am not afraid to let the person know its a bad idea and why I feel that way. I am content with the game as is...I am not very competitive and I only get to play every other week. We almost never run the same list twice and every game is a fresh new experience. If the designers want to release something new I am good with that. They have experience and they have information none of us do in regards to the future of the game. Those of us trying to "improve" the game for the most part don't....I believe that includes you but I dont know you personally...feel free to correct me on this point if I am wrong. In the end, if you have a problem with what I say, again, you may put me on ignore...I dont really care.

I am primarily an Imp player yes...but I own an extensive amount of rebel ships, and up until the decimator, had little experience in utilizing turret ships and was just fine with my arc dodging interceptors and phantoms. Where did you get that argument? Or are you just looking for ways to try to deride me...cause if that is the case you should really try to find something better.

My disposition on the 3rd faction came from my real world hatred of pirates/piracy and the fact that in most my SW experience they were nothing more than a side player...mostly unimportant. I still feel they could have been brought in as part of the rebel or imperial factions as the slave had been. I dont like them...plain and simple. I came to terms with their existence in this game long ago and I accept it...but I dont have to like it. I also dont have to like the fact that mere hours after the 3rd faction was announced there were threads clamoring for a 4th.

As I said, I am fine with the game as is. I dont feel it is my place to "improve" it...I don't feel its the place of any of us on here. I have seen a few good ideas and a whole slew of bad ones. I let those I like know they are liked and vice versa. I am certainly not afraid of new things...I just dont trust anyone on this board to be able to do it properly. I have shared a few things that I felt would improve certain situations (see the latest "looking for a way to make a 3 player game work" thread.) I have no ideas that I won't share...you seem to have read enough of my posts to know that I wont keep my mouth shut if I have feelings on something.

So in closing...if you dont like what I have to say (my "bickering" as you so chose to eloquently call it) then stick me on ignore. I am not going to lose any sleep over the fact that ForceM doesn't like what I have to say. If you wish to respond to this I would ask that you start a new thread...you can even copy this response. I enjoy arguing...and dont want to dereail osoroshiis thread as it is discussing something genuinely interesting and I would like to keep following it for what it is....

I called you out because i don't like reactionary or super conservative people (in game designing at least...). The game should be kept in constant movement as new ships, waves, rules, ideas, concepts are introduced. And since this is actually what FFG is doing, i will draw satisfaction out of the fact that they are, on a top of that listening to ideas brought up by their playerbase (rebalanced Advanced and A-Wing for example) and not bother anymore with someone that instead of contributing to progress is just making himself a brake shoe.

Also i did not derail the thread because i still contributed to it by saying the falcon will take more of a hit than the Outrider or Decimator.

That's fine...as stated earlier you are more than welcome to ignore me. I don't really care one way or the other.

I am sure we will bump into each other again though...until then I guess Mr. game designer?

EDIT TO ADD: draw satisfaction from whatever you wish. I don't fear any of the change the devs on. They listen to these boards yes...but I have said it once and I am sure I will say it again...this place gives itself way too much credit for what ends up being released.

And brake stops are quite necessary to keep the train from speeding out of control...they contribute to progress as well by helping weed out the plethora of bad ideas...Face it dude...places like this need people like me to bring them back into reality from time to time and point out the imperfections and issues with their "amazing ideas" and breaking the game or doing other unexpected damage due to their inability to see the bigger picture.

And here is the standard lay out you'll see

Sontir Fel (27)

Push The Limit(3)

Royal Guard Pilot (0)

Autothrusters (2)

Stealth Device (4)

Stealth Device only costs 3.

I wonder whether Soontir would be better off with Hull or Shield than Stealth, but that's a local metagame call.

I look forward for the Baron to re-surface. Similarly, Turr Phennir.

I guess I just got so use to seeing the 4 point modifications I put stealth there too. Here is a list that would just be funny and yet in a turret heavy environment could be deadly.

Turr Phennir + Royal Guard TIE + Veteran Instincts + Autothrusters + Stealth Device (31)

Carnor Jax + Push the Limit + Royal Guard TIE + Stealth Device + Autothrusters (34)

Soontir Fel + Royal Guard TIE + Push the Limit + Stealth Device + Autothrusters (35)

My friend will be running that exact list.

However I need to point out that I think Carnor Jax-PTL-RGT-SD-AT @ 34 points is going to do much better than Soontir. For reason 1 he shuts down evades and focus/ the thing that keeps most ships alive. I have playtested both on vassal quite a bit and Carnor is currently in the lead for DPS and Survivability. Sure you don't get a free focus when you shoot against a rebel captive but it doesn't hurt him considerably.

Soontir (even at one point more) lacks the damage capacity needed for a pilot skill 9. Sure throwing 4 dice is great but without a targetlock you really suffer for that ship being your offensive go to. Thats why CJ works so well because he fits into the roll he is supposed to fit in (Support/disruption)

That's fine...as stated earlier you are more than welcome to ignore me. I don't really care one way or the other.

I am sure we will bump into each other again though...until then I guess Mr. game designer?

EDIT TO ADD: draw satisfaction from whatever you wish. I don't fear any of the change the devs on. They listen to these boards yes...but I have said it once and I am sure I will say it again...this place gives itself way too much credit for what ends up being released.

And brake stops are quite necessary to keep the train from speeding out of control...they contribute to progress as well by helping weed out the plethora of bad ideas...Face it dude...places like this need people like me to bring them back into reality from time to time and point out the imperfections and issues with their "amazing ideas" and breaking the game or doing other unexpected damage due to their inability to see the bigger picture.

The devs clearly read the forums as well as study tournament results to see what's working and what isn't and it's a great thing because unlike some other companies it shows they value customer input even if they don't always agree.

While the devs have never straight up taken an idea from these forums they've clearly got some inspiration which is good, they don't just lazily take an idea without play testing and the end result may not be the same but it is nice to know we can contribute a little.

Nothing shatters faith in a company like the realisation they don't give a crap about your opinion, for years on warseer I was telling people gw pay no attention to their customers and no one beloved me until kirby released that statement out right declaring with pride they do no research.

I welcome the effort to make all ships playable, it shows ffg is genuinely invested in making a quality product.

And here is the standard lay out you'll see

Sontir Fel (27)

Push The Limit(3)

Royal Guard Pilot (0)

Autothrusters (2)

Stealth Device (4)

Stealth Device only costs 3.

I wonder whether Soontir would be better off with Hull or Shield than Stealth, but that's a local metagame call.

I look forward for the Baron to re-surface. Similarly, Turr Phennir.

I guess I just got so use to seeing the 4 point modifications I put stealth there too. Here is a list that would just be funny and yet in a turret heavy environment could be deadly.

Turr Phennir + Royal Guard TIE + Veteran Instincts + Autothrusters + Stealth Device (31)

Carnor Jax + Push the Limit + Royal Guard TIE + Stealth Device + Autothrusters (34)

Soontir Fel + Royal Guard TIE + Push the Limit + Stealth Device + Autothrusters (35)

My friend will be running that exact list.

However I need to point out that I think Carnor Jax-PTL-RGT-SD-AT @ 34 points is going to do much better than Soontir. For reason 1 he shuts down evades and focus/ the thing that keeps most ships alive. I have playtested both on vassal quite a bit and Carnor is currently in the lead for DPS and Survivability. Sure you don't get a free focus when you shoot against a rebel captive but it doesn't hurt him considerably.

Soontir (even at one point more) lacks the damage capacity needed for a pilot skill 9. Sure throwing 4 dice is great but without a targetlock you really suffer for that ship being your offensive go to. Thats why CJ works so well because he fits into the roll he is supposed to fit in (Support/disruption)

This all sounds wonderful but you're discarding the PS8 vs PS9 like it wasnt there. PS9 with init turns Fel into a Phantom hunter which Carnor will never be. Also many lists to date would just target lock Carnor and focus him down as he moves into range 1. Ofc this depends on what kind of list you run into, but i'd guess people will start to build lists to counter interceptors (and Carnor) the minute AT get released..

Not saying Carnor won't see play with AT,i'm sure he will do, but as long as Whispers sees alot of play PS8 is somewhat tricky. Either it's great because it you beat Dash's ps or it sucks because you run into Whisper.And if you dont have init Echo will easily hunt him down aswell. Or Corran..heck, with Scum the list will be even longer.

That's fine...as stated earlier you are more than welcome to ignore me. I don't really care one way or the other.

I am sure we will bump into each other again though...until then I guess Mr. game designer?

EDIT TO ADD: draw satisfaction from whatever you wish. I don't fear any of the change the devs on. They listen to these boards yes...but I have said it once and I am sure I will say it again...this place gives itself way too much credit for what ends up being released.

And brake stops are quite necessary to keep the train from speeding out of control...they contribute to progress as well by helping weed out the plethora of bad ideas...Face it dude...places like this need people like me to bring them back into reality from time to time and point out the imperfections and issues with their "amazing ideas" and breaking the game or doing other unexpected damage due to their inability to see the bigger picture.

The devs clearly read the forums as well as study tournament results to see what's working and what isn't and it's a great thing because unlike some other companies it shows they value customer input even if they don't always agree.

While the devs have never straight up taken an idea from these forums they've clearly got some inspiration which is good, they don't just lazily take an idea without play testing and the end result may not be the same but it is nice to know we can contribute a little.

Nothing shatters faith in a company like the realisation they don't give a crap about your opinion, for years on warseer I was telling people gw pay no attention to their customers and no one beloved me until kirby released that statement out right declaring with pride they do no research.

I welcome the effort to make all ships playable, it shows ffg is genuinely invested in making a quality product.

I feel FFG is doing this totally different at the moment. They are changing, evolving the game slowly so that wave after wave there is new stuff and the meta shifts a bit. This keeps things interesting. And they clearly listen to their Forum. This has been proven many times and if you watch interviews with the game designers they have a clue about what they are talking and what thebplayerbase has been saying lately. And then they still cone up with better ideas or more innovative stuff than most of us, but often achieving the goal (see Advanced). Fantastic...

It is this Forums duty to point out difficulties and come up with good ideas for balancing or new stuff. FFG will then decide where and what they want to adopt or reject. And i believe they have no difficulties of doing so.

We absolutely need no one to pick on people that make propositions here. Often they are new players too and i find it just disgusting to treat them like it sometimes happens here. Just explain why their idea is not good and leave it there!

To come back to Autothrusters. Yes they are probably necessary, and i know they will make up a big part of the new meta shift. On the other hand i find it a bit sad because the newly released scum pilots like Kavil will never see the sun probably... Especially the HWK also takes a punch in the guts. It already was not the best ship, and for Rebels where they are mainly flown for support this might not be a big issue. But the Scum pilots have good abilities for actually fighting. So no matter which turret you take if the enemy runs AT it will get very problematic even with those excellent pilots.

That's fine...as stated earlier you are more than welcome to ignore me. I don't really care one way or the other.

I am sure we will bump into each other again though...until then I guess Mr. game designer?

EDIT TO ADD: draw satisfaction from whatever you wish. I don't fear any of the change the devs on. They listen to these boards yes...but I have said it once and I am sure I will say it again...this place gives itself way too much credit for what ends up being released.

And brake stops are quite necessary to keep the train from speeding out of control...they contribute to progress as well by helping weed out the plethora of bad ideas...Face it dude...places like this need people like me to bring them back into reality from time to time and point out the imperfections and issues with their "amazing ideas" and breaking the game or doing other unexpected damage due to their inability to see the bigger picture.

The devs clearly read the forums as well as study tournament results to see what's working and what isn't and it's a great thing because unlike some other companies it shows they value customer input even if they don't always agree.

While the devs have never straight up taken an idea from these forums they've clearly got some inspiration which is good, they don't just lazily take an idea without play testing and the end result may not be the same but it is nice to know we can contribute a little.

Nothing shatters faith in a company like the realisation they don't give a crap about your opinion, for years on warseer I was telling people gw pay no attention to their customers and no one beloved me until kirby released that statement out right declaring with pride they do no research.

I welcome the effort to make all ships playable, it shows ffg is genuinely invested in making a quality product.

This is one if the bajillion Reasons why i stopped playing Warhammer battle and 40k. I mean i am in favor of actively balancing a game, but what they did at some point was just releasing Codex after Codex in 40k and every single one was more ridiculously powerful than the one before. and even now they release like crazy. Great looking miniatures no doubt. But the whole rest of their policy is just utter crap. It sums up like this: GW have no respect for their customers and retailers and it will be their downfall. By that time the guys running it will be filthy rich but the company will not subsist for 10 more years i feel. They are bleeding players from what one hears and reads, and they are just holding on because of their huge price increases. It's just a matter of time from this point on.

I feel FFG is doing this totally different at the moment. They are changing, evolving the game slowly so that wave after wave there is new stuff and the meta shifts a bit. This keeps things interesting. And they clearly listen to their Forum. This has been proven many times and if you watch interviews with the game designers they have a clue about what they are talking and what thebplayerbase has been saying lately. And then they still cone up with better ideas or more innovative stuff than most of us, but often achieving the goal (see Advanced). Fantastic...

It is this Forums duty to point out difficulties and come up with good ideas for balancing or new stuff. FFG will then decide where and what they want to adopt or reject. And i believe they have no difficulties of doing so.

We absolutely need no one to pick on people that make propositions here. Often they are new players too and i find it just disgusting to treat them like it sometimes happens here. Just explain why their idea is not good and leave it there!

I got out of 40K for very similar reasons...at least we seem to agree that those guys suck.

Yes FFG does listen to us here...that was actually the main reason I began to post so heavily way back when...agreed thus far they have come out with much better ideas than many here have come up with. But this board isnt the design machine I get the impression it thinks it is. and I am glad the devs design the game...not this board.

I am curious as to where you feel I have picked on people (as I assume this comment was directed at me...we have been butting heads in here...lovin' it!). So as not to make our spat the centerpiece of this thread I would encourage you to PM me some instances where you feel I have or start another thread if you want it out in the public sphere, as this should be the last time I can answer this issue without feeling like I am detracting from the real discussion here. You can even call my name out in the title...if that is allowed, and if it isnt I will not report you for doing so. I will be more than willing to explain myself to you in detail. As I said I love debate and argument...weather or not the other person ever comes to my side (which I have no anticipation you will...and thats fine.) I question, often times aggressively. When you force another person to justify their position you find they either realize it is the wrong position or they entrench and really figure out why they believe what they believe. Take my debate w/ Spike Spiegle a few months back on weather or not pirates should be able to "aquire" other factions ships.

So yeah...on the topic of the autothrusters. Much ado is being made and I think it will end some of the one shotting that happens to ints. The playtesting all points to a rather large shift...but we will see what happens once it is released and we get some real metadata.

And here is the standard lay out you'll see

Sontir Fel (27)

Push The Limit(3)

Royal Guard Pilot (0)

Autothrusters (2)

Stealth Device (4)

Stealth Device only costs 3.

I wonder whether Soontir would be better off with Hull or Shield than Stealth, but that's a local metagame call.

I look forward for the Baron to re-surface. Similarly, Turr Phennir.

I guess I just got so use to seeing the 4 point modifications I put stealth there too. Here is a list that would just be funny and yet in a turret heavy environment could be deadly.

Turr Phennir + Royal Guard TIE + Veteran Instincts + Autothrusters + Stealth Device (31)

Carnor Jax + Push the Limit + Royal Guard TIE + Stealth Device + Autothrusters (34)

Soontir Fel + Royal Guard TIE + Push the Limit + Stealth Device + Autothrusters (35)

My friend will be running that exact list.

However I need to point out that I think Carnor Jax-PTL-RGT-SD-AT @ 34 points is going to do much better than Soontir. For reason 1 he shuts down evades and focus/ the thing that keeps most ships alive. I have playtested both on vassal quite a bit and Carnor is currently in the lead for DPS and Survivability. Sure you don't get a free focus when you shoot against a rebel captive but it doesn't hurt him considerably.

Soontir (even at one point more) lacks the damage capacity needed for a pilot skill 9. Sure throwing 4 dice is great but without a targetlock you really suffer for that ship being your offensive go to. Thats why CJ works so well because he fits into the roll he is supposed to fit in (Support/disruption)

I disagree with you on Soontir, his damage is more limited than Jax no argument, but his ability to dance and arc dodge while still gaining focus and being PS9 is incredibly powerful. Also, Soontir can super turtle gaining 2 focus and 1 evade in a turn. The biggest difference though is that Soontir can do all of this outside of R1, where Jax is completely limited.

Now, at least for me, I run Soontir and Jax together, they make a brilliant combination.

That's fine...as stated earlier you are more than welcome to ignore me. I don't really care one way or the other.

I am sure we will bump into each other again though...until then I guess Mr. game designer?

EDIT TO ADD: draw satisfaction from whatever you wish. I don't fear any of the change the devs on. They listen to these boards yes...but I have said it once and I am sure I will say it again...this place gives itself way too much credit for what ends up being released.

And brake stops are quite necessary to keep the train from speeding out of control...they contribute to progress as well by helping weed out the plethora of bad ideas...Face it dude...places like this need people like me to bring them back into reality from time to time and point out the imperfections and issues with their "amazing ideas" and breaking the game or doing other unexpected damage due to their inability to see the bigger picture.

The devs clearly read the forums as well as study tournament results to see what's working and what isn't and it's a great thing because unlike some other companies it shows they value customer input even if they don't always agree.

While the devs have never straight up taken an idea from these forums they've clearly got some inspiration which is good, they don't just lazily take an idea without play testing and the end result may not be the same but it is nice to know we can contribute a little.

Nothing shatters faith in a company like the realisation they don't give a crap about your opinion, for years on warseer I was telling people gw pay no attention to their customers and no one beloved me until kirby released that statement out right declaring with pride they do no research.

I welcome the effort to make all ships playable, it shows ffg is genuinely invested in making a quality product.

This is one if the bajillion Reasons why i stopped playing Warhammer battle and 40k. I mean i am in favor of actively balancing a game, but what they did at some point was just releasing Codex after Codex in 40k and every single one was more ridiculously powerful than the one before. and even now they release like crazy. Great looking miniatures no doubt. But the whole rest of their policy is just utter crap. It sums up like this: GW have no respect for their customers and retailers and it will be their downfall. By that time the guys running it will be filthy rich but the company will not subsist for 10 more years i feel. They are bleeding players from what one hears and reads, and they are just holding on because of their huge price increases. It's just a matter of time from this point on.

I feel FFG is doing this totally different at the moment. They are changing, evolving the game slowly so that wave after wave there is new stuff and the meta shifts a bit. This keeps things interesting. And they clearly listen to their Forum. This has been proven many times and if you watch interviews with the game designers they have a clue about what they are talking and what thebplayerbase has been saying lately. And then they still cone up with better ideas or more innovative stuff than most of us, but often achieving the goal (see Advanced). Fantastic...

It is this Forums duty to point out difficulties and come up with good ideas for balancing or new stuff. FFG will then decide where and what they want to adopt or reject. And i believe they have no difficulties of doing so.

We absolutely need no one to pick on people that make propositions here. Often they are new players too and i find it just disgusting to treat them like it sometimes happens here. Just explain why their idea is not good and leave it there!

I got out of 40K for very similar reasons...at least we seem to agree that those guys suck.

Yes FFG does listen to us here...that was actually the main reason I began to post so heavily way back when...agreed thus far they have come out with much better ideas than many here have come up with. But this board isnt the design machine I get the impression it thinks it is. and I am glad the devs design the game...not this board.

I am curious as to where you feel I have picked on people (as I assume this comment was directed at me...we have been butting heads in here...lovin' it!). So as not to make our spat the centerpiece of this thread I would encourage you to PM me some instances where you feel I have or start another thread if you want it out in the public sphere, as this should be the last time I can answer this issue without feeling like I am detracting from the real discussion here. You can even call my name out in the title...if that is allowed, and if it isnt I will not report you for doing so. I will be more than willing to explain myself to you in detail. As I said I love debate and argument...weather or not the other person ever comes to my side (which I have no anticipation you will...and thats fine.) I question, often times aggressively. When you force another person to justify their position you find they either realize it is the wrong position or they entrench and really figure out why they believe what they believe. Take my debate w/ Spike Spiegle a few months back on weather or not pirates should be able to "aquire" other factions ships.

So yeah...on the topic of the autothrusters. Much ado is being made and I think it will end some of the one shotting that happens to ints. The playtesting all points to a rather large shift...but we will see what happens once it is released and we get some real metadata.

I was actually not pointing at you specifically this time, but i have seen threads where players with under 30 posts make a proposition or find that something is under- or overpowered, and then they find themselves a minor shitstorm for it. I ignore if you participated in such activities, but i hope not.

Concerning AT again i looked at Vassal tournament results and one had 2 Double Aggressor lists with AT i believe. The sky is not falling, they made rankings between 6 and 10 i believe. In another Tournament triple Interceptors with AT came in second. I can say i will enjoy flying Soontir and friends again. When Raider Hits it will be Phantom/Interceptor/Advanced for me a lot i feel!!

To come back to Autothrusters. Yes they are probably necessary, and i know they will make up a big part of the new meta shift. On the other hand i find it a bit sad because the newly released scum pilots like Kavil will never see the sun probably... Especially the HWK also takes a punch in the guts. It already was not the best ship, and for Rebels where they are mainly flown for support this might not be a big issue. But the Scum pilots have good abilities for actually fighting. So no matter which turret you take if the enemy runs AT it will get very problematic even with those excellent pilots.

Kavil and the HWK should still see play even in an auto-thrusters environment. I base this prediction on a couple things:

1.) Phantoms still exist

2.) Kavil and the HWK pilots are far cheaper than fatass turrets, so you can fit anti-thruster stuff much more easily. Things like the Firespray or even cost effective ships such as N'dru or w.e his name is will give the interceptor problems, not to mention segnor's loop ships such as the Starviper or illicit tech on tons of cheap bodies.

3.) The HWK pilots still have abilties that will wreck auto-thruster ships (Pilot skill 0 isn't as devastating as it is against a phantom but it still sucks, and then there's Palob to whom interceptors are like an all you can eat token buffet)

4.) Kavil hits like a **** truck against every other type of ship.

I'm very optimistic about Wave 6

If wave six knocks us out of this turret heavy meta i'll rejoice, much like when 5th ed 40k was around all you saw was space wolves and grey knights it's stagnating the game only having three viable builds.

Fair enough force.

We can leave it at that. I am sure we will debate again. PMing me will always be an option should we bump heads again.

To come back to Autothrusters. Yes they are probably necessary, and i know they will make up a big part of the new meta shift. On the other hand i find it a bit sad because the newly released scum pilots like Kavil will never see the sun probably... Especially the HWK also takes a punch in the guts. It already was not the best ship, and for Rebels where they are mainly flown for support this might not be a big issue. But the Scum pilots have good abilities for actually fighting. So no matter which turret you take if the enemy runs AT it will get very problematic even with those excellent pilots.

Kavil and the HWK should still see play even in an auto-thrusters environment. I base this prediction on a couple things:

1.) Phantoms still exist

2.) Kavil and the HWK pilots are far cheaper than fatass turrets, so you can fit anti-thruster stuff much more easily. Things like the Firespray or even cost effective ships such as N'dru or w.e his name is will give the interceptor problems, not to mention segnor's loop ships such as the Starviper or illicit tech on tons of cheap bodies.

3.) The HWK pilots still have abilties that will wreck auto-thruster ships (Pilot skill 0 isn't as devastating as it is against a phantom but it still sucks, and then there's Palob to whom interceptors are like an all you can eat token buffet)

4.) Kavil hits like a **** truck against every other type of ship.

I'm very optimistic about Wave 6

I think that versus Soontir those turrets will still have difficulties hitting him. kavils 4 dice help him but Palob stealing a token is probably not enough because he can have 2 focus 1 evade. It will also be easy for him to stay at R3 and not get shot by the turrets pure and simple. Until now i always felt HWKs were underrated, but now i really see them in difficulties...

But i am not pessimistic at all for Wave 6 either. And Scum has 2 ships that can take Autothrusters after all! To me Rebels are the losers of Wave 6 because they:

Rely on turrets a lot and they will have difficulties. Nearly all their competitive lists include Han or Dash after all.

Get only the A-Wing to use Autothrusters and it's arguably the worst ship of the 4 being able to take them.

The only upgrade for them that is forseeably interesting will probably be Mangler cannon on Dash, but that's not much!

The only upgrade for them that is forseeably interesting will probably be Mangler cannon on Dash, but that's not much!

I think that BTL upgrade card thing for the Ywing will be good for them as well. Get enough ways to pass a focus token and you might be able to utilize blaster turret...barring that you will ion after every shot. And who knows...maybe we will see a flechette turret come out sometime in the future that would shine w this upgrade too.

hopefully, the de-valuing of turrets will force rebel players to think outside the box instead of relying on turrets

BTL is definitely interesting, and probably a huge boon for anyone wanting to try out control style lists without sacrificing damage output.

So I had seven games on Saturday and two of them I used:

Howlrunner

Academy TIES x 5

Carnor Jax with PtL, Stealth Device, Royal Guard Title and Autothrusters

First versus

Dash with PtL, Kyle, Engine, Outrider, HLC

Jan Ors with VI, Blaster Turret, Rec Spec, Moldy Crow and Engine update

Basically Dash has a five dice focus/target lock long range ignoring HLC . . . which is famous for in one game rolling 31 die and getting 30 hits against a swarm. Match lasted 8 turns. In a tournament.

This time however, the one and ONLY time Dash fired he landed five hits against Carnor Jax who was Focus/Evade. I rolled two evade, a focus and a blank.

Autotrusters (as I like to call them) turned the blank to evade, using the focus I had four, with the evade token, I had five. GG.

Those two points just saved my hide and won me the game because next turn I was range one and Dash died.

Second game was Lando and Dash, can't remember the upgrades but Carnor again didn't die and was the main focus of all attacks. Howlrunner and her swarm deleted those bloated no skill boats and their tears tasted sweet.

I cannot wait to officially roll this list in tournaments. The evade potential is huge when coupled with an evade token. Han is difficult because of the evade and 3PO, we now have the same but on Interceptors, who can focus with three to four dice.

Cannot rate this card enough. Is it OP? Hell no, as only the StarViper, Aggressor, A wings and Interceptor can take them and ONLY the Interceptor can take both the AT and SD at once.

Once S&V comes out (when this card will be valid), I have to wonder how many Fat Hans we will see. With all the new toys and ships, I expect a shake up of the meta for a bit. I think there are a number of anti big, turreted ship things that are coming out soon enough.

Turr Phennir + Autothrusters + Lone Wolf = the funniest thing in the world when dealing with turrets.

I hate the way that the rules change every time a ship comes out. Wait a while and the power will creep back to turrets.

FFG seem like they are now committed to rewriting the rules everytime they release a new ship (they have to release new upgrades, EPT's and lord knows what else), it's actually getting quite tedious, not fun, to have to buy new ships just to keep up with the rules changes.

I hardly recognise the game I started playing a while back, it's being slowly eroded.

Turret ships are actively stopping interceptors from being used, that's not something that was ever intended AT simply allows squints to be used again, it's fixing a broken situation.

If you want a static environment where rules issues are ignored for years at a time 40k May be more your speed, ffg unlike gw care about the game and are trying to make all ships playable and trying to promote more flexibility in lists.

I'm going to go with, I see both sides. Surely we can discuss thing in the middle rather than the extremes.

There is a difference between rules being ignored and good rules being published and left alone. I've play plenty of games that have had at most one expansion and we've played them for decades. If the game is good, people can play it.

Now in order to effectively field an A-Wing you need to buy Rebel Aces. To effectively field a TIE Interceptor you need to buy the Star Viper; to some that may not be so obvious. To effectively field the TIE Advanced you need to buy the Imperial Raider. Each of these fixes a problem but also adds a layer of complexity and yes new rules.

There's even several posts now asking, does anyone know the most common upgrades on [insert ship name]. Unless you're on top of things, a regular reader of multiple forums, X-Wing articles and have played so often you know all of the combos... many are getting lost in the fix/upgrade every few months. It can take longer to build a squad than play a game. 1 hour to play 2 to setup.

Don't get me wrong. I like that the A-Wing, Interceptor and Advanced is getting fixed. But I'm getting lost in what should go with what and I don't personally feel that everything needs to be upgraded, fixed and buffed. Some things should be situational. We see plenty of X-Wings but not enough generics so let's buff the X-Wing into an arc dodger like the TIE. But we don't often see YT-1300 ORS so next we may need to buff the YT-1300. Then....

Summary: I fall in the middle. I like some fixes but too many dilute the fun and make an easy game cumbersome.

Sorry for the soapbox rant.

Fortunately, Jedi Master Paul Heaver foresaw autothrusters and gave the world a counter to the counter...

Dodge my arc, you little pipsqueak? I think not!

All praise to Paul "Thinking Waves Ahead of the Opposition" Heaver.

I don't really see how an upgrade that only some ships can take, which only makes them a little more survivable against turrets, is the death knell for turreted ships like the HWK. You won't always be up against Interceptors, A-Wings or Starvipers (or IG-2000s). It's good that there isn't one kind f ships that knows going in to a fight that it's going to be better than any opponent ship.

Fortunately, Jedi Master Paul Heaver foresaw autothrusters and gave the world a counter to the counter...

Dodge my arc, you little pipsqueak? I think not!

All praise to Paul "Thinking Waves Ahead of the Opposition" Heaver.

If that's your plan, aren't you wasting an awful lot of points taking a turret to start with?

Fortunately, Jedi Master Paul Heaver foresaw autothrusters and gave the world a counter to the counter...

Dodge my arc, you little pipsqueak? I think not!

All praise to Paul "Thinking Waves Ahead of the Opposition" Heaver.

If that's your plan, aren't you wasting an awful lot of points taking a turret to start with?

Not really. Turrets are still pretty great in general.

Plus, I could see Stay On Target deployed to all manner of ships to help them keep the new interceptor hotness in arc.